Fiona wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...

riverman wrote:

This
latest thing is atrocious, and I am sure than there isn't a single American
living in the states who fully realizes how distainful, discrediting and
compromising this makes us look.

Agreed.


I trepidaciously look forward to how Bush will pass blame for this on to
someone else.

The blame rests with the people who did it. That seems pretty evident.
There's no reason to pass the blame, what's needed is to prosecute the
guilty parties.


It is not isolated Brian.

That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has
happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic.

We ( As a group ) don't see these people as fully human so we can do
nasty things to them.

Don't include me in your "we". I don't see it that way at all. There is
no justification for what apparently happened.

After all they blew up the trade towers ... right??.

No. Whatever gave you that idea?

You're going way out on a limb here. What point are you trying to make?
Are you just trying to bait me or something? If so, you're wasting your
time, as I don't think that way.

On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has
happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic.
...

Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up
with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by
themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses
at their local community college?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

Galen Hekhuis wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has
happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic.
...

Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up
with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by
themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab
Humiliation courses
at their local community college?

Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see
anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute
disgust .


Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

brian : i was being sarcastic. the world knows that iraq had nothing
to do with the trade tower bombings . WMD's are sort of in doubt
right now too.
in an earier post I mentioned what happened to a friend .
i am pretty angry about that.
soldiers are not policing themselves in a mannor appropriate for the
circomstance.
US soldiers (and brits) are finding themselves in the same
circomstance that i would imagine the germans did with the jews.
dehuminize the foe and they can be mistreated or even exterminated.
the germans are not an ignorant barbaric race, as a nation quite the
oposite : but they did what they did and now we are getting a lesson
on how this can happen.
i saw a night vision video of three men being shot by machine gun a
couple of nights ago. they were unarmed.
the humiliation the men in that iraqi prison were put through was not
just stuff that would play on the Islamic mind , it would be a crime
against anyone.

what you are looking at is an attitude. young men have absolute power
over a people that can't speak the language to complain and if they
can they are afraid to.
this has hapened before; and will again.
the truly sad thing is there is now way out.
we had a program played here in Canada , A W5 CBC production . It was
about the bush , bin laden ties and soudi arabia. It was most
interesting.
going to war seams easy. how george gets you out of it is going to be
a task.

though i dissagree with your view you are quite eliquent. i an sure
you don't carry a natural hatred for arabs at large, right now though
the coalition of the willing seams to. the news not allowed out of
iraq is frightening . your own media is not allowed to show coffins,
body bags or the bodies of dead US soldiers.
i think you will change your mind, eventually ( 10 years or so ) but
only if i am wrong....
fiona.

On 7 May 2004 07:23:45 -0700, (Fiona) wrote:

Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see
anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute
disgust .

You think wrong. Rush Limbaugh has said it was no more than frat hazing.
Even Don Rumsfeld said that it was "abuse," not torture. Being as how that
seems to be the attitude of some, and others take the "we're not as bad as
Saddam" approach, it is much more credible to me that these folks were
steered into these acts. This is not to say that the people who did these
things are any less guilty, it is just that not everyone involved (or who
comments) is filled with "absolute disgust." There are plenty who think it
is the result of a "few bad apples." I think it involves much more than
that. I do not believe a "few bad apples" chose prisoners in Iraq of all
places. How many military prisons are there? What are the odds?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future

Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC.

"3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan

This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The
video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of
Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck
containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week
were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves.

The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are
not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff."

http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov

Paddlec1 wrote:

Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC.

"3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan

This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The
video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of
Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck
containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week
were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves.

The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are
not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff."

http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov

The funny thing is that this documentary was shown on German and Dutch
TV almost two years ago, not too long after the invasion of Afghanistan.
I posted about seeing it in a thread about the war in Afghanistan on
Boatertalk, and got a wave of resentment and being called a liar because
it wasn't shown on any U.S. TV station, therefore it wasn't true.

If only that link had been available then.

--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko

Type in Message-ID:

The funny thing is that this documentary was shown on German and Dutch
TV almost two years ago, not too long after the invasion of Afghanistan.
I posted about seeing it in a thread about the war in Afghanistan on
Boatertalk, and got a wave of resentment and being called a liar

because
it wasn't shown on any U.S. TV station, therefore it wasn't true.

Excuse me, but the incident was covered by the American press, even had an
investigative piece in Newsweek on it. The only difference is that it was a lot
less judgemental of the US role in the tradegy than the video linked in the
article. No one disputes the basic facts, that Taliban prisoners of the
Northern Alliance were transported in closed trucks and many of them died. What
I do dispute is the role the US played in it. We provided advisors, in
particular fire control and forward air controllers, to the Northern Alliance.
The US did not command the unit nor have control over the action of its troops.


I suspect the actual casualties were somewhat less than protrayed in the video.


I find it somewhat interesting to note that the Special Operation training
program have a similar situation built into the Robin Sage, their final
training exercise. What do you do when you have to support people that play by
different rules than you do?
The reality is that you advise them to do the right thing and deal with the
fact that they often do not.




SYOTR
Larry C.

Wilko wrote in message ...
Paddlec1 wrote:

Yep, just an "isolated incident". Here's something from the CBC.

"3000 Prisoners Slaughtered in Afganastan

This video is about how the US slaughtered 3000 Afgan prisoners of war. The
video is big - 55 megs download and it is shocking. It makes the Black Hole of
Calcutta look like a picnic. These prisoners were left in sealed truck
containers to suffocate and fry in the hot sun. The few that survived a week
were taken out and shot an buried in mass graves.

The video is EXTREMELY disturbing and it will give you nightmares. If you are
not ready to see this footage - DO NOT WATCH IT !!! This is NAZI level stuff."

http://marc.perkel.com/images/AfganPOWsKilled.mov

The funny thing is that this documentary was shown on German and Dutch
TV almost two years ago, not too long after the invasion of Afghanistan.
I posted about seeing it in a thread about the war in Afghanistan on
Boatertalk, and got a wave of resentment and being called a liar because
it wasn't shown on any U.S. TV station, therefore it wasn't true.

If only that link had been available then.

The sad thing is you are so ignorant and arrogant you beleive this
crap, as if you are the only one who is aware. Bull****... Yes I know
coming back to this group and picking on one of the biggest trolls
will get me the warnings and physical threats I got last time from
Dennis and others who of course love free speech until it is not in
line with their agenda but you guys and your little circle jerk are
getting a little out of touch with the real world...

Fiona wrote:

Galen Hekhuis wrote in message . ..

On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has
happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic.
...

Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up
with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by
themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab

Humiliation courses

at their local community college?


Galen I think anyone would be humiliated at this stuff. I did not see
anything that would not fill a Christian or a pagan with absolute
disgust .

Agreed.

brian : i was being sarcastic. the world knows that iraq had nothing
to do with the trade tower bombings . WMD's are sort of in doubt
right now too.

Sure.

in an earier post I mentioned what happened to a friend .
i am pretty angry about that.
soldiers are not policing themselves in a mannor appropriate for the
circomstance.
US soldiers (and brits) are finding themselves in the same
circomstance that i would imagine the germans did with the jews.
dehuminize the foe and they can be mistreated or even exterminated.
the germans are not an ignorant barbaric race, as a nation quite the
oposite : but they did what they did and now we are getting a lesson
on how this can happen.

Point well taken. War definitely brings out the dark side of the human
psyche in many people. It's an ugly business.

i saw a night vision video of three men being shot by machine gun a
couple of nights ago. they were unarmed.

When did it happen? What was the context? We're they just hanging around
on the street having a cigarette? Were they approaching a checkpoint and
refusing to stop when ordered? Without more information, it's impossible
to say whether the actions were justified and unfortunate, or crimial
and punishable.

the humiliation the men in that iraqi prison were put through was not
just stuff that would play on the Islamic mind , it would be a crime
against anyone.

Agreed.

what you are looking at is an attitude. young men have absolute power
over a people that can't speak the language to complain and if they
can they are afraid to.
this has hapened before; and will again.

Sadly, I'm sure you're right.

the truly sad thing is there is now way out.
we had a program played here in Canada , A W5 CBC production . It was
about the bush , bin laden ties and soudi arabia. It was most
interesting.
going to war seams easy. how george gets you out of it is going to be
a task.

That was known beforehand. The people crying about it are the ADD, short
attention span crowd who want everything RIGHT NOW. That was never going
to happen and anyone with any sense knows that.

Yes, there have been unexpected twists and turns and attendant changes
in strategy and tactics, but that's the nature of war. War is untidy.
War is unpredictable. People forget that for every person here who
was/is strategizing, there's a counterpart on the other side who's
trying to undermine that strategy. It's huge, deadly chess match. The
outcome is never certain until it happens.

though i dissagree with your view you are quite eliquent. i an sure
you don't carry a natural hatred for arabs at large, right now though
the coalition of the willing seams to.

I don't agree with that at all, neither from the military of civilian
perspectives. The overwhelming majority of those involve have no hatred
of Arabs at all and would rather be helping to build schools and
hospitals and other infrastructure than fighting insurgents. I
absolutely refuse to believe that we are the bad guys in this situation,
the actions of a few miscreants notwithstanding.

the news not allowed out of
iraq is frightening . your own media is not allowed to show coffins,
body bags or the bodies of dead US soldiers.

Think what you will, but that's out of respect for the dead and their
families. There is no shortage of news about casualties. PBS has a roll
call of them every night on the news. Information about them is
published on several government web sites and updated in a timely
manner. Hell, Nightline did a program where they read off names for the
entire show! No one is hiding information regarding those who've made
the ultimate sacrifice.

i think you will change your mind, eventually ( 10 years or so ) but
only if i am wrong....

I doubt it, but you never know. The problem now is that everyone is
emotionally involved. Years from now when the final outcome is known and
we can look at the war dispassionately, it will be easier to determine
whether it was the right thing to do or not. I thought that Vietnam was
wrong at the time and I still do now, though perhaps not for the same
reasons that you might feel that way (if you do).

Galen Hekhuis wrote:

On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:44:30 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


That depends on how you define "isolated". I'm assuming that this has
happened more than once, but that hardly makes it systemic.
...


Wait a minute. We are expected to believe that these reservists came up
with things that Muslims specifically would see as humiliating? All by
themselves with no help? Do you think they took Arab Humiliation courses
at their local community college?

Well, I think it's safe to say that anyone would have found it
humiliating. Regardless, it's entirely possible that they were coached,
directed and/or encouraged. If so, the people who did so should be
punished at least as severely as those who perpetrated the acts.
However, that doesn't mean that all guards, supervisors and the like are
guilty or that these things occurred at all facilities. Time will tell.