in article , Blakely LaCroix at
wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM:

I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are
the Sheep
that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young
blindly
off to slaughter.

RailTramp


Amen, Blakely.

Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all
will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say:

"We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here
overnight."

Best,

Chuck

me too.

I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks
think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected. I hope that is
not true. Articles and viewpoints like this help me to wake up
tomorrow morning with a brighter outlook.

I have never felt this stongly about any election.

And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

-Dan V.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:33:37 -0700, Charles Pezeshki
wrote:

in article , Blakely LaCroix at
wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM:

I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this country are
the Sheep
that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young
blindly
off to slaughter.

RailTramp


Amen, Blakely.

Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all
will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say:

"We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here
overnight."

Best,

Chuck

Dan Valleskey wrote:

I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks
think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected.

He does, especially since it's becoming clearer that Kerry can't be
trusted to tell the truth about much of anything. He's just another
typical politician.

And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

Good. The worst thing we could do is to simply pull out. It's going to
take time to stabilize Iraq and we shouldn't leave until that job is
done. I'll give Kerry credit that he at least seems to understand that.

BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an
immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous.

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong
or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between
"the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world.
There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and
government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American.

On Sat, 01 May 2004 13:33:12 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

Dan Valleskey wrote:
snip..
And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

snip..

BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an
immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous.

I know him, I value his opinions. He has seen more than I ever will.
His thoughts and opinions are not pulled out of mid-air. He is very
very intelligent, in my opinion, and I suspect well read. He has a
different viewpoint than any American is likely to have. Let's not
forget that Usenet is a world wide forum. And- what I said was- I
am sorry but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight..... Yes,
we have an obligation to leave them in a bettter situiation. I am
sorry that we will be there for some time, to effect needed changes.
And I am sorry that Americans will die in that effort.



I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong
or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between
"the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world.
There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and
government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American.


I agree, was it Ed Abbey that said, love your country, but hate
(?mistrust?) it's government. Unfortunatly, the man I (and the
majority in this country) voted for did not get into office.

Maybe "ashamed" was not the best word I could have used. But I was
sure not proud that I was an American, when I was in Europe. It is a
big world, and many of the people in it don't like me, because of my
government. America attacked Iraq without just cause. So we are
scorned in many places. Do you like that?

You (or someone in this thread) mentioned something about my being a
troll. I resent that. I have posted on RBP for many years. I
prefaced my remarks (to an OT posting) that I did not take this stance
lightly. I am not standing here on a soap box just to make trouble,
just to rattle the cage. People who read this may one day paddle with
me, share a campfire with me. I hope they understand my views to some
extent, even if they don't agree with me. A troll? Not as I
understand the meaning of the word in this context.

If you want to take this discussion off usenet, I believe you can find
my true email address in my signature. I am even willing to talk to
you on the phone, just contact me off RBP. But please don't call me a
troll.

-Dan V.

Dan Valleskey wrote:
On Sat, 01 May 2004 13:33:12 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


Dan Valleskey wrote:

snip..

And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

snip..

BTW, why would you apologize to Wilko? His fairy tale ideas about an
immediate pullout and UN control are ridiculous.


I know him, I value his opinions. He has seen more than I ever will.
His thoughts and opinions are not pulled out of mid-air. He is very
very intelligent, in my opinion, and I suspect well read. He has a
different viewpoint than any American is likely to have.

Go back and read what he suggested, then tell it how intelligent they
are. He's pulling completely unworkable "solutions" out of his ass,
based on emotion rather than logic.

Let's not forget that Usenet is a world wide forum.

I'm well aware of that. Stupidity is also a worldwide phenomenon.

And- what I said was- I
am sorry but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq overnight..... Yes,
we have an obligation to leave them in a bettter situiation. I am
sorry that we will be there for some time, to effect needed changes.
And I am sorry that Americans will die in that effort.

Agreed.

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

Why would you be ashamed? Have YOU done anything that you consider wrong
or hurtful to the rest of the world? There's a big difference between
"the government" and "the people", here and everywhere around the world.
There are many things I'm not pleased with about our culture and
government policies, but that doesn't make me ashamed to be an American.



I agree, was it Ed Abbey that said, love your country, but hate
(?mistrust?) it's government. Unfortunatly, the man I (and the
majority in this country) voted for did not get into office.

Are you still whining about the election? It's been 3 1/2 years, get
over it.

Maybe "ashamed" was not the best word I could have used. But I was
sure not proud that I was an American, when I was in Europe. It is a
big world, and many of the people in it don't like me, because of my
government.

Then they are narrow minded idiots. Do you hate all Saudis because a
bunch of them took down the WTC on 9/11? I certainly don't and there's
no reason for anyone not to make similar distinctions between people and
governments.

America attacked Iraq without just cause.

I don't agree.

So we are scorned in many places. Do you like that?

Of course not, but it's nothing new. There will always be people who
hate us because we're the "big kid on the block". We're constantly in
no-win situations. If we act, we're criticized. If we don't act and some
bad happens as a result, we're criticized. The world if full of "Monday
morning quarterbacks" and we're never going to win them all over.

You (or someone in this thread) mentioned something about my being a
troll.

It wasn't me.

"Dan Valleskey" valleskey at comcast dot net wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

stuff snipped

Ashamed to be an American? Get involved and change the system or find
somewhere you aren't ashamed of. What kind of a coward just puts up with
something he's ashamed of?

(Sorry, I know I shouldn't fee the trolls.)

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.
I would like to travel to the US with out being taken for a terrorist at
every security check point just because I have three Iranian visas in my
passport. Random selection by the computer my ass! On my last GC trip a
good friend of mine refused to come as this was his protest at the Iraq
war - he is Scottish and so claims no allegiance with Blair.

I just hope that the electors remember the actions of their leaders when
the elections arrive yours in the US in November and ours here in the UK
whenever Blair wants to hold it in the next 18 months. VOTE it is the
only way to change things unless you can find a super power to come and
overthrow the corrupt governments we have!

-Dan V.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:33:37 -0700, Charles Pezeshki
wrote:

in article , Blakely LaCroix at
wrote on 4/30/04 8:04 AM:

I do not blame Bush for being who he is. The real problem in this
country are
the Sheep
that eatup the crap presented to them without question and march their young
blindly
off to slaughter.

RailTramp


Amen, Blakely.

Many of my own liberal friends are acting as if Kerry gets elected, then all
will pass. Of course, I support Kerry, but I still say:

"We didn't get here overnight, and we're not gonna get out of here
overnight."

Best,

Chuck


--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

Dan Valleskey wrote:

me too.

I wouldn't usually bother posting that, but I am afraid many folks
think Bush has a very good chance of being re-elected. I hope that is
not true. Articles and viewpoints like this help me to wake up
tomorrow morning with a brighter outlook.

I have never felt this stongly about any election.

And I am sorry, Wilko, but Kerry will not pull us out of Iraq
overnight. Far as I can tell, we will be there for a while.

I know, I know... but one can always hope...
I just hope that he isn't as dumb as Bush when it comes to alienating
the world and turning the U.S. into a nation under terror. Every time I
watch U.S. news (whether it be NBC, CNN or CBS), I wonder why people are
being constantly being made afraid with messages from the government and
media. It must be that the only way the U.S. government can get away
with unconstitutional limitations or individual's freedom is by saying
that it's necessary because of the constant threats.

I know folks who are ready to move to Canada! I only hope that one
day I can return to Europe for a visit without being ashamed of being
an American.

Dan, you're okay, and so are many, if not most, of your countrymen.

Unfortunately, there is a considerable amount of people who won't think
for themselves, who will believe everything their media or their
government tells them. If that minority is vocal enough, it might sound
like they're talking for the entire nation.

Anyway, if you want to hop over to Europe and you'll find yourself near
Eindhoven, you're welcome to stay at my house. (I'll even protect you
from the hordes or angry Europeans trying to shred you and your fellow
Americans to ribbons! ;-) )

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh Wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko wrote:

I know, I know... but one can always hope...
I just hope that he isn't as dumb as Bush when it comes to alienating
the world and turning the U.S. into a nation under terror.

It doesn't matter, as he's never going to get the chance. ;-)

Every time I
watch U.S. news (whether it be NBC, CNN or CBS), I wonder why people are
being constantly being made afraid with messages from the government and
media. It must be that the only way the U.S. government can get away
with unconstitutional limitations or individual's freedom is by saying
that it's necessary because of the constant threats.

You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all
like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at
airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here.
I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply
isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most
people just take it all in stride.

I'm sure there are some people here that are like those in your dreams,
but I certainly don't know any.

On Tue, 11 May 2004 21:22:49 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

...
You have an incredibly skewed view of life here. It's nothing at all
like you're imagining it to be. Other than noticeably tigher security at
airports, seaports and public events, life has changed very little here.
I don't know why you think we're all running scared, as that simply
isn't true. We've become used to the exaggerations of the media and most
people just take it all in stride.

Just out of curiosity, what are we supposed to do when they raise/lower the
"terror threat level"? I'll agree, little has changed here other than
tighter security at some places and stuff, but if you think the media is
exaggerating stuff you haven't heard some recent government pronouncements
predicting a terrorist attack before long. Scared? Not me, personally,
but I think the public as a whole is to varying degrees. And the darned
thing is there all these frightened people running around and all the
government tells them is to be alert and go shopping.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We are the CroMagnon of the future