In article ,
(Scott McFadden) wrote:

(Bob D.) wrote in message
...

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of
evidence

Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key
West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner.

Good luck, there aren't any.

I guess it's the "opinion" of these charter Capt's, who are on the
water everyday possible, that Bayliner is not their 1st, 2nd, 3rd,
4th, ect, ect, "choice" if you look at brands of boats in use for that
kind of activity.


Well, I'm not from Florida, how big of an area is this area? If it's a
small area, then is it an accurate sample? If it's a large area, do you
mean to tell me you know EVERY charter boat in that area??? And even if
you do, does this directly means that all Bayliners are crap???


Oh, and take a look at this thread:

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=107267

Hardcore offshore and inshore FL fishermen and, the last time I
checked, over 170 different boats pictured. (note to self: get a pic
of the boat on there to bolster the Whaler fleet)

What a surprise, looks like Bayliner is "missing in action", once
again.

Wouldn't you've expected a better showing from such a "popular" brand
of boat?


Sorry, I didn't look at all 170 pictures. I did get your point though. A
few comments...

Are there only 170 Fisherman in Florida? I don't know much, but I'd guess
there are more. Is the Trophy contingent accurately represented in those
170 pictures? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. Do you know? Of course
not.

Also doe this lacking of Bayliners (specifically Trophys) mean the boat is
not suitable for the hardcore offshore and inshore fishing, but a 14 foot
aluminium bass boat is? Now you're just being silly! (Note to self:
post my 2160 Trophy to shut Scott up) Just kidding, Scott.

I can't disput evidence you present does argue a point if we keep our
inferences solely within the context you've presented, Bayliners are not
popular. Once again does imply that Trophys are not popular anywhere?
Don't know. Does that directly equate to all Bayliners being inferior?
Not really. Does your evidence out weigh my personal experinces with the
brand? Not to me.


So, where do I see Bayliners? Bee-bopping up and down the ICW on
weekends, picnicing on sandbars/spoil islands and, looking like they
are having a real good time doing so. They're all over the place.

Which is exactly where and, doing exactly what, they were "designed"
for.

You may be right, there Scott! But that can be said of a host of other
brands, implying no real inferiority. And just because a Bayliner,
usually an entry level boat, isn't seen in other enviroment, doesn't mean
they are unsuatable for them. At least, not in my experience.


Some of us, however, are a bit more demanding.
--
SJM

Whoa there.... Scott. Ya started off kinda jerky, but then were sounding
like a pretty reasonable guy, until that last left-handed comment.

Contrary to what many elitest believe, the boat don't make the skipper.
I've been out in a 16' Bayliner in 6-8's in Lake Erie (And let me tell
you, those are NOT ocean swells). Conversely, my ex-girlfiens bought a
28' Four Winns which can probably easily handle that weather, but after
three seasons has yet to see anything on Lake Erie over 3 feet (that's a
rough day for her family). I've seen alot of nice 35-40 foot boats that
never leave the dock. If you didn't mean it that way, do youself a favor
and don't go there 'cause that the quickest road to "Horses Ass ville" you
can find.

If you did mean it as an insult, it explains why you debate with pictures
:^) (sorry)

Take Care,

Bob Dimond

(Bob D.) wrote in message ...

In article ,
(Scott McFadden) wrote:


Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key
West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner.

Good luck, there aren't any.

I guess it's the "opinion" of these charter Capt's, who are on the
water everyday possible, that Bayliner is not their 1st, 2nd, 3rd,
4th, ect, ect, "choice" if you look at brands of boats in use for that
kind of activity.


Well, I'm not from Florida, how big of an area is this area?

+500 miles along the SE Atlantic coast with boating weather Damn near
365 days a year. When do you Buckeyes start putting your boats into
"hibernation" for the winter? Later this month or, is it already under
way? (BTW, 80F w/a 10kt N wind & scattered showers here tomorrow)

If it's a large area, do you mean to tell me you know EVERY charter boat in
that area???

Find a six pack, offshore, charter that uses a Bayliner and prove me
wrong.

And even if you do, does this directly means that all Bayliners are crap???

No, what it "means" is that Bayliners are totally absent amoung
experienced Captains who rely upon their boat for a living.

Don't you wonder why not a single one of these captains have selected
such a "popular" brand of boat to rely upon?

Also doe this lacking of Bayliners (specifically Trophys) mean the boat is
not suitable for the hardcore offshore and inshore fishing, but a 14 foot
aluminium bass boat is?

There were a couple of pictures of "14' aluminium bass boats" which is
more than we can say about Bayliner, isn't it?

Astonishing, given Bayliner's "popularity", don't you think?

Now you're just being silly! (Note to self:
post my 2160 Trophy to shut Scott up) Just kidding, Scott.

You're welcome to do so. That site is moderated. You won't have to put
up with a never ending stream of OT political crap & nonsense, cheap
shots, or flames, like here on rec.boats :-)


Some of us, however, are a bit more demanding.

Whoa there.... Scott. Ya started off kinda jerky, but then were sounding
like a pretty reasonable guy, until that last left-handed comment.

I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's
perfect.

Contrary to what many elitest believe, the boat don't make the skipper.
I've been out in a 16' Bayliner in 6-8's in Lake Erie (And let me tell
you, those are NOT ocean swells).

Wave interval is a much more important factor, right?

Tell you what, tough guy, bring a 16' Bayliner to Ponce or Sebastian
when a strong onshore wind is opposing an outgoing tide and go out
past the formidable "standing men" that form in either inlet. I'll
watch from my Whaler, ready for the inevitable rescue attempt. If you
make it, I'll be so impressed I promise to quit ragging on Bayliners
right here and now.

A final word of advice:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"
--
SJM

On 4 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700, (Scott McFadden)
wrote:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"

========================================

It's kind of fun to fly down east coast on a clear day in the fall.

You can sometimes see the inlets breaking from 35,000 feet up.

Wayne.B wrote in message . ..

On 4 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700, (Scott McFadden)
wrote:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"

========================================

It's kind of fun to fly down east coast on a clear day in the fall.

You can sometimes see the inlets breaking from 35,000 feet up.

Alot more fun than trying to get through one.

Here is a shot of Mantanzas (S of St Aug) with +6' breakers guarding
the mouth.

http://www.co.st-johns.fl.us/bcc/pub...ages/inlet.jpg

Mantanzas means "massarce" in Spanish and that might happen to you to
if you're dumb enough mess with her on a bad day.
--
SJM

Scott McFadden wrote:

Wayne.B wrote in message . ..

On 4 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700, (Scott McFadden)
wrote:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"

========================================

It's kind of fun to fly down east coast on a clear day in the fall.

You can sometimes see the inlets breaking from 35,000 feet up.

Alot more fun than trying to get through one.

Here is a shot of Mantanzas (S of St Aug) with +6' breakers guarding
the mouth.

http://www.co.st-johns.fl.us/bcc/pub...ages/inlet.jpg

Mantanzas means "massarce" in Spanish and that might happen to you to
if you're dumb enough mess with her on a bad day.
--
SJM


My favorite inlet - really. Used to run it at least once a week, just
for the joy of it, and because the fishing right at the bridge - on both
sides - is usually damned good. I've caught tarpon right there...



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

+500 miles along the SE Atlantic coast with boating weather Damn near
365 days a year. When do you Buckeyes start putting your boats into
"hibernation" for the winter? Later this month or, is it already under
way? (BTW, 80F w/a 10kt N wind & scattered showers here tomorrow)

If it's a large area, do you mean to tell me you know EVERY charter
boat in
that area???

Find a six pack, offshore, charter that uses a Bayliner and prove me
wrong.

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. You pull a statement
completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong? Yeah,
Scott, I'll go jump on that.

Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc... Specifically are there any
other Brands that are absent? If so does that mean those boats are
inferior too? If so how come no one in this miserable group takes the
time to point a finger in those boats' direction? Why? My guess, it's
because a few people in this group are wannabe boating elitest, with
little real knowledge on any given boats capabilities (except hopefiully
their own), so they pick an easy target.

Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models, along
previous unsubstainted ramblings for other ignorant elitest, conspire to
make Bayline an easy target for people who have this childish need to
pooh pooh a boat that is not their brand but are too intellectually lazy
to put together a reasonable argument. Rather than qualify their
remarks, they simply dribble "Bayliner baaaad", because that brand has
least chance of being disputed, perpetuating ignorance, and setting up
the brand name for future attack.



And even if you do, does this directly means that all Bayliners are
crap???

No, what it "means" is that Bayliners are totally absent amoung
experienced Captains who rely upon their boat for a living.

Don't you wonder why not a single one of these captains have selected
such a "popular" brand of boat to rely upon?


Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this
small contingent of boaters". What's you response "'cuz dey suk!"?
Flawless logic indeed. Why don't you just tell me specifically what you
are trying to convey?

Also can we please try to argue with facts instead of implying something
from a small groupof people? Seriously, I can take a group of perch
fishermen or walleys fishermen on Lake Erie have a sample of more than
170 Boats, just like the referenced website, and have few if any Boston
Whalers present in that sample. What does than mean? Nothing.



Also doe this lacking of Bayliners (specifically Trophys) mean the boat
is
not suitable for the hardcore offshore and inshore fishing, but a 14
foot
aluminium bass boat is?

There were a couple of pictures of "14' aluminium bass boats" which is
more than we can say about Bayliner, isn't it?

Astonishing, given Bayliner's "popularity", don't you think?


So once again you imply a 14 aluminium boat is better equipped for than
a closed bow bayliner Trophy????? Really???? Isn't your ass getting a
little sore from pulling out all those comments?




Some of us, however, are a bit more demanding.

Whoa there.... Scott. Ya started off kinda jerky, but then were
sounding
like a pretty reasonable guy, until that last left-handed comment.

I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's
perfect.

Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal.

Contrary to what many elitest believe, the boat don't make the skipper.
I've been out in a 16' Bayliner in 6-8's in Lake Erie (And let me tell
you, those are NOT ocean swells).

Wave interval is a much more important factor, right?


Yes it is. And Lake Erie's shallow dept increase the frequency.

Tell you what, tough guy, bring a 16' Bayliner to Ponce or Sebastian
when a strong onshore wind is opposing an outgoing tide and go out
past the formidable "standing men" that form in either inlet. I'll
watch from my Whaler, ready for the inevitable rescue attempt. If you
make it, I'll be so impressed I promise to quit ragging on Bayliners
right here and now.

A final word of advice:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"
--
SJM

Uh.. Yeah, Scott... Once agin I'll jump right on it and am leaving
right now because I really need yto show you.

I have no problems taking your word on your local boating conditions. I
won't presume I can take a 16 foot Bayliner or ANY BOAT into waters that
I have absolutely no experience with. If your comment is that my
boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am
happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my word that I
have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her and see
for yourself. Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for
information on Lake Erie.

I try to be a reasonable person in my original assertion that not all
Bayliners are crappy. I've never asserted that any Bayliner can be
taken anywhere, competing with any other boat in any category.

I don't make absolute statements about a five hundred mile coastline one
cannot possibly be 100% familiar with, then tell people who aren't even
local to the area to "prove me wrong". I don't take a small sample of
people and say there are no Bayliners present so "what does that tell
you", to infer Bayliners are inferior.

What I do assert is that in MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE the Bayliners I have
owned and been and other Brands I have owned and been on, is that
Bayliners seem just as capable in rough boating conditions as a
comparable Wellcraft, Larson, Chris-Craft, Four Winns, etc... This
means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who
feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in
an ignorant manner.

If you feel the need to keep ragging on all Bayliners, becuase I am
unwilling to drive thousands of miles to prove it to you, well the have
fun with pounding your chest chanting "Bayliner baaaad. My boat
gooood." with Harry, and the lemmings in the Our Gang He Man Bayliner
Hater's Club.


Bob Dimond

BOB wrote:

+500 miles along the SE Atlantic coast with boating weather Damn near
365 days a year. When do you Buckeyes start putting your boats into
"hibernation" for the winter? Later this month or, is it already under
way? (BTW, 80F w/a 10kt N wind & scattered showers here tomorrow)

If it's a large area, do you mean to tell me you know EVERY charter
boat in
that area???

Find a six pack, offshore, charter that uses a Bayliner and prove me
wrong.

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. You pull a statement
completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong? Yeah,
Scott, I'll go jump on that.

There was one six pack captain operating out of the area between St.
Mary's, Georgia, and St. Augustine, Florida, who ran a Bayliner Trophy
center console for inshore ocean fishing and on the ICW. He was the only
one I ever encountered in more than five years of fishing those waters
several times a week.

The most popular ICW boats for charter captains were Carolina Skiffs.

Outside the inlets, Whalers, Gradys, Contenders, Makos (lotsa older
Makos) and a dozen other brands were common among the hired captains. No
Tropnies.


Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns,

Chris Craft, Larson and Four Winns aren't in the salt water fishing boat
builder category. Bayliner is. Lotsa Wellcrafts were about, especially
the older 20 footers.



Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models, along
previous unsubstainted ramblings for other ignorant elitest, conspire to
make Bayline an easy target for people who have this childish need to
pooh pooh a boat that is not their brand but are too intellectually lazy
to put together a reasonable argument

There you go. You have your own list of Bayliner shortcomings.





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

BOB wrote in message ]...

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications.

I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial
applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW.
An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for.

You pull a statement completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong?

There are no Bayliners in use for the type of operation I mentioned,
in that area, trust me

Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc...

I've seen a few Wellcraft CC's in use down in the Keys for diving
op's.

IIRC none of the other brands you mention are in that market.

Bayliner is, or so they think.

Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models....

Well now, look who's "ragging" on Bayliner.

Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this
small contingent of boaters".

You may wish to refer to your own words, quoted above. I'll just add
one more he You'll also take a bath when you finally wise up and
try and sell/trade up the damn thing.

Look in any of the local papers and you'll see -ten- Bayliners for
sale ad's for -one- of any other brand of boat. The classified ad
section is like a Bayliner "rendezvous".


I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's
perfect.

Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal.

I try not to disappoint.

If your comment is that my boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my
word that I have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her
and see for yourself.

I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the
necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic
newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a
friend/relative, ect, to get home next time.

But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right?

You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right?

You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half
that in one weekend)

That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years,
right?

Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the
poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on
your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove
much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on
your part.

Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie.

I am well aware of the Great Lakes.

This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who
feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in
an ignorant manner.

I never said they were "crap".

I said where I see them and, where I do not see them.

We know what people do where I see them and, what they do where I do
not see them.

People can draw their own conclusions.
--
SJM

Scott McFadden wrote:
BOB wrote in message ]...

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications.

I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial
applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW.
An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for.

One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of
your post here makes perfectly clear.




You pull a statement completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong?

There are no Bayliners in use for the type of operation I mentioned,
in that area, trust me

Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc...

I've seen a few Wellcraft CC's in use down in the Keys for diving
op's.

IIRC none of the other brands you mention are in that market.

Bayliner is, or so they think.

Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models....

Well now, look who's "ragging" on Bayliner.

Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this
small contingent of boaters".

You may wish to refer to your own words, quoted above. I'll just add
one more he You'll also take a bath when you finally wise up and
try and sell/trade up the damn thing.

Look in any of the local papers and you'll see -ten- Bayliners for
sale ad's for -one- of any other brand of boat. The classified ad
section is like a Bayliner "rendezvous".


I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's
perfect.

Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal.

I try not to disappoint.

If your comment is that my boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my
word that I have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her
and see for yourself.

I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the
necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic
newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a
friend/relative, ect, to get home next time.

But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right?

You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right?

You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half
that in one weekend)

That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years,
right?

Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the
poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on
your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove
much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on
your part.

Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie.

I am well aware of the Great Lakes.

This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who
feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in
an ignorant manner.

I never said they were "crap".

I said where I see them and, where I do not see them.

We know what people do where I see them and, what they do where I do
not see them.

People can draw their own conclusions.
--
SJM


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Scott McFadden wrote:
BOB wrote in message
]...

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications.

I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial
applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW.
An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for.

One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of
your post here makes perfectly clear.



I am a careful reader, just not a gullible one. I'm to believe he knows
every fishing vessel on a 500 mile coastliine, then infer the viability of
Bayliners based on a loose inference.

You too should get along very good. You both have similar definitions for
facts.