Bob D. wrote:
Alright Alright already so I'm long winded. Sorry. Hopefully what
follows it's an intersting read with SOME value. Also, ignore the
spelling, I'm in a hurry and typing with my toes today :^)


I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

I seem to infer? I inferred no such thing. There are lots of crappy boats.



Also can you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

I've seen Bayliners in rough water pop the rivets that hold their hulls
and decks together. I've seen Bayliners with plain, untreated plywood
behind seat cushions. I've seen Bayliners where the hullsides and botton
"tin can" in moderate seas.

I wouldn't go out of sight of land in a Bayliner, much less 30 miles
offshore.

What's *your* boating experience, Bob? Mine goes back more than 50 years.



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Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

I seem to infer? I inferred no such thing. There are lots of crappy boats.



While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration. If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.



Also cn you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

I've seen Bayliners in rough water pop the rivets that hold their hulls
and decks together. I've seen Bayliners with plain, untreated plywood
behind seat cushions. I've seen Bayliners where the hullsides and botton
"tin can" in moderate seas.

I wouldn't go out of sight of land in a Bayliner, much less 30 miles
offshore.

Working on a presumpton that ANY boat would deteriorate this badly in 50
hours, you've given some fine examples. I can't dispute these incidents,
and it definitely would jade MY opinion of Bayliners in general if it
happened to me.

But lets be realistic. Can all your "experiences" really scale to every
Bayliner ever built? This get too the very problem I have with your
comments!

Whenever the opportunity presents itself, you routinely bash bayliners,
inferring that all Bayliner are crap. You do so without ANY constructive
or positive comments, and without qualifying ANY of your remarks. If you
have not done so overtly, you have at least inferred that every bayliner
is crap and present it to this group as fact.

Harry, I can't argue that you and even people you know have had ****ty
experience with Bayliner. Hell, I can't even argue that Bayliner is a
good boat! I can only offer my experience which refutes what you have
routinely handed out as fact, which is all bayliners are crap. Like I
said, even if you never made that direct statement , your actions on this
group have clearly illustrated this bigotry.


What's *your* boating experience, Bob? Mine goes back more than 50 years.


50 Years? Wow your older than 50? Hmmm... By your constant smart ass
quips, I would have pegged you as an angry teenager. Within the context
of our discussion, I really don't know how one's boating experience counts
for anything, so I'll assume you want to get to know me, so here's a
condensed boating resume...

I've been boating since age 4 for 34 years. Manning lines since age 6.
Trusted to secure the boat at anchor by 10 (a very funny story). Plotting
Courses, by age 12. Piloting our (family) 31 foot Jersey by age 14.
Pilliging PIB by 22.

I've only had the pleasure of owning vessels under 23 feet. I taught
myself to sail in an 11 foot sea snark. Moved up to a 16 foot lapstrake
cape cod catboat. (Sorry, but if you want to brag about the "classic
lines of a Parker", you wouldn't cut it with me). The catboat was too
much work and interferred with my carrousing, so I bought a Spindrift 19.
Then bought a Macgregor 21 Cutter rig which I started but never finished
so I gave it away. Bought a Renken 17 sailboat. Went into powerboating,
throughly enjoyed my Bayliner 16 cuddy, Enjoyed my Bayliner 2160 Trophy,
sold the Renken, and currently enjoy my Chris-Craft 232AC, which I pieced
together after its 13 year hiattus. Looking at obtain a 27 foot
powerboat, and perhaps a 22 foot Catboat for next season.

Traveled through Great Lakes Ontario, Erie, Huron, and Lake St Clair.
Been as far East as Montreal as Far North as Mackinaw City. Locked
through the Welland and Trent-Severn waterways. Sailed along the Florida
panhandle.

I have little doubt that my buddy tony will at least try talk me into a
trans-atlantic crossing before were in our mid fourties. Must admit, with
the right sailboat, it does sound intriguing.

I am BY NO MEANS the most experienced boater out there, nor do I profess
to be. I do feel I have a *pretty good* handle on things within this
realm. This make me your worst nightmare, Mr Krause, as I usually know
when someone is talking out their ass, and passing it off as knowledge.

Hope this helps,

Bob Dimond

Bob D. wrote:


Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

I seem to infer? I inferred no such thing. There are lots of crappy boats.



While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I make no such inference.



I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration. If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.

I've criticized any number of boat brands for any number of reasons.





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While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I make no such inference.



I stand behind my opinion of your actions to date. If infereernce is
improper, I'll be glad to use the term imply


I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been
here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other
brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration.
If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the
ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.

I've criticized any number of boat brands for any number of reasons.


Two things about you last statement seem false. One, you've criticized
another brand of boat. Two, you gave reasons.

:^)

BOB wrote:



While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I make no such inference.



I stand behind my opinion of your actions to date. If infereernce is
improper, I'll be glad to use the term imply

Sorry, but I've never implied Bayliners were the only crappy boats.



I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been
here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other
brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration.
If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the
ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.

I've criticized any number of boat brands for any number of reasons.


Two things about you last statement seem false. One, you've criticized
another brand of boat. Two, you gave reasons.

:^)

Well, it appears you have no more knowledge of posts in rec.boats than
you do about of safe boating.

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You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.



"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bob D. wrote:
I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

My guess is it is an urban legend. Who the hell would not have returned the
boat for warranty work. I would have expected the author to say it was a
friend of a friend who owned the Trophy.


"Mole" wrote in message
. net...
You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced
if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and
hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she
belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.



"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bob D. wrote:
I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

Mole wrote:

You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this?


The boat has been back at the dealer's frequently...and...it is still a
Bayliner, corporate sleight of hand notwithstanding.


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email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Mole" wrote in message
. net...
You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced
if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and
hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she
belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.

My brother has a 28' Trophy and it's actually a pretty nice boat, certainly
in comparison to the ski boat and the cruiser lines bayliner puts out. He
had plenty of trouble and it took several trips back to the dealer to get
them straightened out.

It has a real head. The only trouble is, because of how it's designed, if
you're more than 5' 9" you can't stand up to take a ****. You've got to
lean with your head cranked sideways against the bulkhead.

Fit and finish is much better than the other bayliner products if witnessed.

jps wrote:

"Mole" wrote in message
. net...
You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced
if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and
hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she
belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.

My brother has a 28' Trophy and it's actually a pretty nice boat, certainly
in comparison to the ski boat and the cruiser lines bayliner puts out. He
had plenty of trouble and it took several trips back to the dealer to get
them straightened out.

It has a real head. The only trouble is, because of how it's designed, if
you're more than 5' 9" you can't stand up to take a ****. You've got to
lean with your head cranked sideways against the bulkhead.

Fit and finish is much better than the other bayliner products if witnessed.



Bayliner has a 28' cruiser, the 288 model, that isn't a bad-looking
boat, and, in fact, I took a look at one a couple of years ago.
But...typical of Bayliner, it had some serious shortcomings, starting
with a much-too-small fuel tank and an I/O drive instead of an inboard
or at least a vee-drive. And the interior was decorated like an RV.
Without the idiotic radar arch, though, it is an attractive, traditional
cruiser, suitable for the Bay or the ICW. But it is a bit overpriced for
what it is.

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