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New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
BOB wrote:
Sorry, just one more. Hey Spanky " I'm impartial, and don't just categorically hate Bayliners" Krause: Where or how in my four sentences, did I refute your selection criteria? What I did do was point out what runs contrary to what you've repeatedly try to tell me, that is, to quote you directly: "I've never implied Bayliners were the only crappy boats." You've just proven my point about your unfounded bigotry. Brands A-Z CAN, AND DO the same thing the same way. Radar Arch, Gas Tank, Interior, and I/O. The shortcommings you address as: "typical of Bayliner are in fact typical in the entire marine industry. But only Bayliner gets maligned by you. No only do you miss the point in trying to comprehend my posts. It's obvious you don't even comprehend what YOU POST. If you did, you would not dispute what I've been saying ALL THIS TIME that you unfairly single out bayliners, for you derrogatory comments. (shaking his head) WOW... Bob...go back to high school and learn how to read, spell, and write. And look up "dispute" and "refute"... the differences between them seem to give you trouble. And, one more time, Bob, I have "maligned" other brands of boats. So your claims that I only slam Bayliners are incorrect. We don't seem to be sharing a common language here, Bob. Perhaps if I posted in pidgin English, it might help you understand. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
BOB wrote in message ]...
Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW. An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for. You pull a statement completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong? There are no Bayliners in use for the type of operation I mentioned, in that area, trust me Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys, Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc... I've seen a few Wellcraft CC's in use down in the Keys for diving op's. IIRC none of the other brands you mention are in that market. Bayliner is, or so they think. Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models.... Well now, look who's "ragging" on Bayliner. Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this small contingent of boaters". You may wish to refer to your own words, quoted above. I'll just add one more he You'll also take a bath when you finally wise up and try and sell/trade up the damn thing. Look in any of the local papers and you'll see -ten- Bayliners for sale ad's for -one- of any other brand of boat. The classified ad section is like a Bayliner "rendezvous". I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's perfect. Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal. I try not to disappoint. If your comment is that my boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my word that I have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her and see for yourself. I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a friend/relative, ect, to get home next time. But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right? You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right? You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half that in one weekend) That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years, right? Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on your part. Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie. I am well aware of the Great Lakes. This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in an ignorant manner. I never said they were "crap". I said where I see them and, where I do not see them. We know what people do where I see them and, what they do where I do not see them. People can draw their own conclusions. -- SJM |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Scott McFadden wrote:
BOB wrote in message ]... Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW. An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for. One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of your post here makes perfectly clear. You pull a statement completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong? There are no Bayliners in use for the type of operation I mentioned, in that area, trust me Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys, Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc... I've seen a few Wellcraft CC's in use down in the Keys for diving op's. IIRC none of the other brands you mention are in that market. Bayliner is, or so they think. Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models.... Well now, look who's "ragging" on Bayliner. Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this small contingent of boaters". You may wish to refer to your own words, quoted above. I'll just add one more he You'll also take a bath when you finally wise up and try and sell/trade up the damn thing. Look in any of the local papers and you'll see -ten- Bayliners for sale ad's for -one- of any other brand of boat. The classified ad section is like a Bayliner "rendezvous". I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's perfect. Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal. I try not to disappoint. If your comment is that my boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my word that I have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her and see for yourself. I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a friend/relative, ect, to get home next time. But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right? You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right? You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half that in one weekend) That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years, right? Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on your part. Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie. I am well aware of the Great Lakes. This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in an ignorant manner. I never said they were "crap". I said where I see them and, where I do not see them. We know what people do where I see them and, what they do where I do not see them. People can draw their own conclusions. -- SJM -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:04:13 -0400, BOB
wrote: If someone said "I think Bayliners are bad for salt water use because they do not use stainless steel fittings" You've put your finger rignt on it. The fittings and trim that Bayliner uses on their smaller boats look like the surface of the moon after a few years around salt water. This is not conjecture; there's lots of them around to take a look at. Regarding the ability to go off shore, I'd talk to some surveyors and your insurance company first. It's one thing to go out, quite another to come back. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:23:51 -0400, BOB
wrote: previous unsubstainted ramblings for other ignorant elitest, conspire to make Bayline an easy target =========================== That's wrong. They're an easy target because they're an easy target. Very visible, very deficient. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
I saw your "great bayliner story", and Chuck Gould (as usual) made the necessary post pointing out your all too typical, overly enthusiastic newbie power boater, foolhardiness. Take a cab, bus, call a friend/relative, ect, to get home next time. I have no problem with Gould, Wally, or most people in this group. My problem is with a few elitist who thrive on the "My boat is better than your boat" mentality. I really don't care who you are or what type of boat you own, this elitism goes against the grain of everthing I was raised to cherish with respect to the civility and comaraderie of the boating fraternity. In all my travels through the great lakes, and even the Florida panhandle, it is, thankfully, a rarity to encounter this mindset. Sadly it is all too prevelant in this group. Gould made some very good points and was tactful about the points he wanted to make. he wasn't responding to belittle a person or boat, or to cite how great his brand of boat is, but to express his opinion and legitimate concerns. I respect anyone who tactfully points out the flaws in something using known facts and personal experience as he did, instead of slinging left-handed or derrogatory remarks, by making casual inferences that are of questionable relevance to their statement. In my response to Gould's post I conceeded he was right. I noticed I had said: "lack of experience" in the sixth paragraph in my story, when I wanted to say was: "lack of experience pulling this vessel out of a tight mooring". I further qualified my remarks, stating that I did have sufficient rough water experience and equipment to minimize the risk and make the venture a little less foolhardy than it seemed. I had experience, on this specific route, how to minimize weather, take advantage of the lees in the passage, as well as carry redundant safety equipment (tranceiver, GPS, flares, day signal, portable air horn. cell phone), in a watertight box in case the worst happened. I don't think my response changed Gould's mind on what he thought of the passage, and that's okay. Hopefully, it clarified that I was not some newbie cowboy, going out yelling "Yee Haaa" without a thought of what they were getting into or how to handle it when they hit it. BTW - I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the strand, but suggesting to take a cab or a bus from an island??? If you had read the posts in this thread, you would have known that was not an alternative, as well the fact that I was not taking my boat out unprepared. But since you bring it up, you've been powerboating since 1999, right? Well, since you brought it up, you're wrong. I've been powerboating on western Lake Erie since 1969. In boats ranging from a 15 foot bowrider to a 40' Wheeler under power. I've been sailing since about 1993 in boats from a 16' Cat boat to a 40' Trimarran. In thirty years plus of boating at this location, while I haven't seen everything, I seen enough to minimize my risks for chances I am willing to take. The majority of fatialities in my area are from people who don't assume, plan, and are not ready, for the bad conditions. You had that 16'er for one whole "season", right? Owned the 16' one season, docked in Sandusky for 1/2 a season. My sailboat was up there previosly, so I didn't take it out on weekends until the later half. Instead I putted around Cleveland, launching from Rocky River, which I do not count as miles because it wasn't "on a trip" by my definition. You put an awe inspiring "250 miles" on it, right? (I've done half that in one weekend) 125 miles in one weekend is a nice trip. I won't belittle it as you tried to. What kind of boat was it on? The trip I described in the story you supposedly read was the last leg home from a trip to Windsor Ontario, at least a 130 miles round trip. Once again, if you had bothered to read, instead of just scanning for things to criticiize, you would have saved your smartass comment for another time. Also I've done almost three times the 125 mile distance you cited in the weekend time you've specified, just not in a 16' boat. That would mean you've had your current boat for less than 3 years, right? Yeah I think I owned the Trophy for either 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 seasons. My current boat is a 23' Chris-Craft, just in this year, is still in shakedown until the '04 season. What's your point? Why don't you come back when you get a little experience and let the poundings you like to submit yourself to begin to take their toll on your boat. Just because you were very fortunate one time doesn't prove much either, Mr Logic, except for some exceedingly poor judgement on your part. Ouch. Okay, Scott. I'm back! And if you had been following this thread you would have noted that I had a familiarity with rough seas on the western end of Lake Erie long before I acquired the 16 foot cuddy. In my childhood on my father's boats, as an adult boating with friends, and my own sailboats, is where I've gained my experience in rough weather boat handling in this region. I've been out in three models of Bayliner, and numerous other boats from Sea Ray, Four Winns, Jersey, Wheeler, Lyman, Richardson, Chris-Craft, etc, all in conditions that ranged from wonderful to worst. My experiences have formed the opinion that, foot per foot, a Bayliner can handle these seas as well as any other boat I've been on. I'm sorry but basing an opinion on the viability of Bayliners based on actual personal experience is a damn sight better logic, than pulling a statement out of your ass about how many Bayliners are used for charter on 500 miles miles of coastline, or counting the pictures of Bayliners on a fishing web site. I've done what you asked, returning when I had the experience, why don't you reciprocate the same courtesy and come back when you can read a complete thread, and offer substancial information to debate posts. Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for information on Lake Erie. I am well aware of the Great Lakes. Good. Assuming that your awarness comes from personal experience and not a web site, I hope you enjoyed them as much as I have in the last thirty-four years. This means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in an ignorant manner. I never said they were "crap". Your right, Scott. You never said that "baylinesr were crap". But if you: Start tossing out snobby left-handed remarks, pooh poohing, a brand name that people own and take pride in owning, as if the boat and their owners are beneath you. Cite vague reference of questionable relevance, passing it off as fact, then, when someone calls you on it, try to change the argument by pointing out some insignificant detail, or hide behind your words, because you didn't actually "say it", only implied it. Then Scott, your not someone who wants to teach those with less experience and learn from those with more experiece. You're not echoing the very core of the boating fraternity, that I believe rec.boats was created to emulate. Instead your an ignorant elitist, who is more concerned with flinging your crap with no more thought than a monkey at the zoo. Like anything else in life, Scott, you choose how to behave. Don't dismiss or imply someone elses boating choices as beneath you standards, and expect a warn reception. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
In article , Harry Krause
wrote: Scott McFadden wrote: BOB wrote in message ]... Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW. An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for. One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of your post here makes perfectly clear. I am a careful reader, just not a gullible one. I'm to believe he knows every fishing vessel on a 500 mile coastliine, then infer the viability of Bayliners based on a loose inference. You too should get along very good. You both have similar definitions for facts. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
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New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
I should also point out that I am a terrible typist, speller, and use
incorrect grammar, but y'all ready knew that! :^) I am a careful reader, just not a gullible one. I'm to believe he knows every fishing vessel on a 500 mile coastliine, then infer the viability of Bayliners based on a loose inference. You too should get along very good. You both have similar definitions for facts. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Bob,
Are Bayliners right wing or left wing? "Bob D." wrote in message ... In article , wrote: On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:23:51 -0400, BOB wrote: previous unsubstainted ramblings for other ignorant elitest, conspire to make Bayline an easy target =========================== That's wrong. They're an easy target because they're an easy target. Very visible, very deficient. Umm.. okay Wayne, I'll just take this vague statement at face value. Seriously, Wayne nobody owes anybody and explanation in this group of why someing is better or worse than something else. But for me to take someone's word that Bayliner as a brand is so inferior as to be unsuitable for an application I would need examples that a 1. Specific to Bayliner as a brand across all their boats. 2. Make the boat less capable than the majority of comparable boats. With the second comment I'm settling on the word "majority" because the people who bash Bayline make it seem that there worse than ANY comparable brand, therefore they tecnically should state in what specific way is Bayliner less capable than ANY comparable boat. I really don't think is is too much to ask to change my opinion based upon personal experience. Most of what I have see have been: A friend of mine... Pictures on a Website... Its a fact that (put outrageous claim here)... I am relying on years of personal experience and 100's if not 1000's of hours on Bayliners and other boats, to form the opinion, that I believe that bayliners are a viable brand. I can't and don't dispute, they may be less suited for SOME applications than SOME brands, but by and large they can do anything that the most other brands can do. This, in my opinion suggest, that they get much more more malignment than they deserve. Perhaps "conspire" is too strong a word. But let's face it how much information do you see being pulled out of people ass, solely to knock a boat they have had little personal experience with. I don't know why it's done. In Harry's or other cases maybe thay did have bad experiences, I don't argue with that. But do those experieces support the absolute statements being tossed out on rec.boats about the brand as a whole? If so, how come the personal positive experiences of me and others with the brand, which contradict these absolute statements that the brand is inferior, have no validity? While I can not speak for you personally, please don't tell me there is NOT an unfounded bigotry against this brand, when people like Harry Krause and spout off a "Typical Bayliner" then list of things he didn't like, which happen to be in the majority of similar models with different brand names. I am willing to believe that the problem is me in conveying what I think, so I'll try again: I'm have not and am not arguing that Bayliners are better than any other boat. I'm have not and am not arguing that any Bayliner, is as good as any other boat, in ANY environment. I'm not saying that people have to like bayliner. I am simply saying that my experiences with Bayliner have formed my opinion that Bayliners are just as capable as any other comparable boat. I can only say this with asbolute confidence on Lake Erie due to my experiences. But most likey, this will equate to most other environments to at least SOME degree. As such it is my opinion that bayliners are a for most applications, a viable, option, and people who continuously and globally bash, dismiss, or slight the entire Bayliner brand, without provocation, and without a shred of constructive information, are behaving in a bigoted, and unfair manner. When they act in this bigoted manner they are in fact perpetuating a false or outdated, or over generalized sterotype, and doing disservice to Bayliner owners, potential Bayliner owners, and the rec.boats groupo as a whole. Why is that so hard for people in this group to accept? |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Bob,
Bayliner is a division of Brunswick, who owns many boat lines. The Bayliner line *is* Brunswicks "price point" line. One achieves a "price point" boat by cutting a few corners here and there so that your boat *can* sell cheaper than comparable boats. It's simple economics. Think of them as the Volkswagon or Hundai of little boats. Genmar also has "price point" boats - the Glastron SX series comes to mind as an example. Now, recently Brunswick has taken some steps to divorce the "Trophy" line of Bayliners and the "Meridian yachts" from the Bayliner name. They did this because Bayliner has become equated with "cheap boats" and they don't want those two lines to present that way. The more I've learned about different little boats - the more a Bayliner would never satisfy me. That's not to say it's not a good entry level boat for getting your feet wet - but you'll prolly want more as you get "boat saavy". Good boat cheap? - depends on use. Great boat cheap? - nope. In the immortal words of Meat (that's Mr. Loaf to you) : "There ain't no Coup DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Crackerjack box." -W "Bob D." wrote in message news:sailbad_d_sinner- As such it is my opinion that bayliners are a for most applications, a viable, option, and people who continuously and globally bash, dismiss, or slight the entire Bayliner brand, without provocation, and without a shred of constructive information, are behaving in a bigoted, and unfair manner. When they act in this bigoted manner they are in fact perpetuating a false or outdated, or over generalized sterotype, and doing disservice to Bayliner owners, potential Bayliner owners, and the rec.boats groupo as a whole. Why is that so hard for people in this group to accept? |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Bob D. wrote:
In article , Harry Krause wrote: Scott McFadden wrote: BOB wrote in message ]... Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. I said "offshore, six pack, fishing or diving charter" not "commercial applications" which could mean putt-putting around docks in the ICW. An "application" Bayliners are eminently suited for. One of Bob's problems is that he is not a careful reader, as the rest of your post here makes perfectly clear. I am a careful reader, just not a gullible one. I'm to believe he knows every fishing vessel on a 500 mile coastliine, then infer the viability of Bayliners based on a loose inference. You too should get along very good. You both have similar definitions for facts. Well, I fished off the Georgia-Florida Coast for six years, several times a week and at least one day on the weekend (unless the weather was horrible), and in the ICW and so forth, and in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing. In fact, I knew the owner of that boat. I generally fished from the St. Mary's River in Georgia down past St. Augustine in Florida, an area with, literally, thousands of small fishing boats and hundreds of larger ones. I don't even see that many Bayliner Trophies on Chesapeake Bay, although I do see plenty of Bayliners. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
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New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
I don't dispute a word you've said :^)
There is a big difference in what you've said and others who are taking pot shots at the line, dismissing them as crap. Also I believe those price cutting points are more fitting out that the actual hull layup. But then I must admit I really don't know this for a fact. Bob, Bayliner is a division of Brunswick, who owns many boat lines. The Bayliner line *is* Brunswicks "price point" line. One achieves a "price point" boat by cutting a few corners here and there so that your boat *can* sell cheaper than comparable boats. It's simple economics. Think of them as the Volkswagon or Hundai of little boats. Genmar also has "price point" boats - the Glastron SX series comes to mind as an example. Now, recently Brunswick has taken some steps to divorce the "Trophy" line of Bayliners and the "Meridian yachts" from the Bayliner name. They did this because Bayliner has become equated with "cheap boats" and they don't want those two lines to present that way. The more I've learned about different little boats - the more a Bayliner would never satisfy me. That's not to say it's not a good entry level boat for getting your feet wet - but you'll prolly want more as you get "boat saavy". Good boat cheap? - depends on use. Great boat cheap? - nope. In the immortal words of Meat (that's Mr. Loaf to you) : "There ain't no Coup DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Crackerjack box." -W |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
In article , "Don
Pulaski" wrote: Bob, Are Bayliners right wing or left wing? You got me there, Don. I really don't know. And I always forget to declare my political leaning when posting. Shame on me! :^) |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
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New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Is it still bigotry if it's true?. Well, for one, nobody has been able to dispute what I caim is true about the brand. IMHO It's bigotry starts when people take if few experiences or "truths" and infer a broader belief. We ALL do it, we all have to. Otherwise life would be too complex. It becomes bigotry when the belief remains unaltered in light of any contradictory evidence. This definition applies to anything, not just Bayliners. To illustrate: Person A has a bad experience(s) with Bayliner. This is an absolute truth. Person A states: "My Bayliner is a piece of ****" this is most likely an absolute truth as it's their boat and they have direct experience with it. BUT If person A states: "ALL Bayliners are ****". This is no longer a truth, but a belief of a whole infered by a relatively small sample of the population. If Persons B & C, have had positive experiences and informs person A, and person A states "It's still a Bayliner, so it MUST be crap". This is bigotry. Person A now has new information of equal weight to what they based their original opinion on but, they chose to ignore it. Hypothetically. if you tell person A: "9 out of 10 Bayliners sucessfully rounded cape horn" they'll cite the 10th boat as "proof" bayliners are crap. On the opposite side of the coin, If I use my experiences to go spouting "all Bayliners are great". I would be over generalizing, and that is, IMHO, bigotry as well. But I don't make those claims, Wayne. I choose my words, I don't make outrageous and broad claims about the line, and cite multiple examples for the claims I do make. I have tried to be objective when people bring actual examples to light. I am willing to take specific examples that Harry and other present at face value, it just doesn't dispute the claim that they are unfairly maligned. Do they deserve any negative feedback? Sure. But realistically other brands probably do as well, but they are not maligned in any way. Also, there's a difference between someone stating that the brand does something different making it unsuitable for a specifis use, and globally implying that the brand is no good for any purpose, without even questioning what it's intended use is. I admire your spirited defense but am forced to question your judgement Don't admire what is most probably a character flaw. :^) It's not that I'm crazy about Bayliners, I own a Chris-Craft now. I just think some of these boating snobs are doing a disservice to a large group of people, when they toss out disparaging remarks without any due consideration. As for questioning my judgement, if it pertains to trying to appeal to any open-mindedness in this group? I'm beginning to agree. Most of my issues with the brand in question relate to long term durability, especially in a tough environment, not the ability to undertake a given voyage on a given day. An excellent point. But if you refer to other posts in this thread, you will have seen that I had other examples as well. Although I used one example of a friend, several friends have owned Bayliners for over 10 years (one 17 years, one 12, one 9), have put countless hours on their boats in all conditions, using them almost every weekend of the season. These boats have been through hell and back, and two of them have the scars to prove it. Would another brand fair better under similar use and care? Maybe. I really don't know. I have seen other brands that have not held up even with vigilant care, yet I do not necessarliy infer the entire product line is bad. My opinion is not based on one voyage. That would be stupid as others whe contend Bayline is not viable because one boat fell apart in a short time. I base my opinion using over ten years of personal experience with the brand. If you want to take a 16 foot boat of any kind out in 6 foot waves that's your business but please don't tell us how well prepared you were. You were lucky, that's all. Most of us have been at one time or another. I'll take exception to this. Please don't tell me my getting back is due to luck alone, because, quite simply Wayne, YOU WEREN'T THERE. You don't know how the waves were, you don't know which direction they were coming from, you don't know, the region, you don't know of the tactics used, and you just don't know my abilities to handle these conditions. Please keep in mind, I'm not arguing your opinion that this was not a bright idea, I'm just arguing that you shouldn't make absulute statements like: "You were lucky, that's all" when you don't have the facts to do so. From my point of view, it was a short passage, I knew the route, I knew the weather, and I knew how to minimize the weathers impact on my boat. I had bee caught out in similar conditions on a comparable sized craft. I had the experience and the proper accessories to make the passage. Even though I labeled the post "A great Bayliner Story", this is not a testament to how great Bayliners are. I could have made that passage is any comparable boat. Foremost, I simply thought it was an entertaining story, the secondary consideration, was using it as an example that Bayliner can't be "that bad" if they can an often do take weather as well as any other boats I have experience with. Was this a great idea? Of course not. But is wasn't a kamakazi mission you report it to be either. And while I'll buy that some luck was involved, in my safe passage, luck, whether good or bad, is involved in ANY passage. It's how we prepare for a passage that either diminishes or increases how much we have to rely on luck. Nice chatting with you. Bob Dimond |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Well, I fished off the Georgia-Florida Coast for six years, several times a week and at least one day on the weekend (unless the weather was horrible), and in the ICW and so forth, and in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing. In fact, I knew the owner of that boat. I generally fished from the St. Mary's River in Georgia down past St. Augustine in Florida, an area with, literally, thousands of small fishing boats and hundreds of larger ones. I don't even see that many Bayliner Trophies on Chesapeake Bay, although I do see plenty of Bayliners. I have absolutly no problem with that statement. But, let's be honest, Harry, because you didn't see them does that really mean that they don't exist? Can you at least entertain the possibility that you don't know every boat in this vast area, and there may be more than just ONE trophy going offshore? It really doesn't mean your statement is less valid, it just means that in such a boad expanse, it's impossible to know everything. It is one thing to state "in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing" It's quite another thing to state there is not ONE Trophy used for charter in 500 miles of developed coastline, as Scott has directly stated. How can he possibly have knowledge of that fact? That is why I accuse Scott of pulling "facts" out of his ass. He could have just as categorically stated Trophys are the only boats boats used by charter captains in this 500 mile area, it still adds up to the same bull****. My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out. I have tried to be objective, and keep an open mind by not using my experience to say "Bayliners are great", I really do think they are for their price, but I think people have a point when they say their not interested in owning one. But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the past, that all. You don't have to like 'em, but I believe when you go snubbing or bashing any person or boat in this group, without giving due consideration, you are being rude and doing the entire group a disservice. Bob Dimond |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Bob D. wrote:
If the plywood is properly encapsulated, it not a problem. However *I DO* see your point if that encapulation fails.... If it isn't the right kind of plywood, it could be a problem, even if it is encapsulated. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
"Bob D." wrote in message ... Well, I fished off the Georgia-Florida Coast for six years, several times a week and at least one day on the weekend (unless the weather was horrible), and in the ICW and so forth, and in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing. In fact, I knew the owner of that boat. I generally fished from the St. Mary's River in Georgia down past St. Augustine in Florida, an area with, literally, thousands of small fishing boats and hundreds of larger ones. I don't even see that many Bayliner Trophies on Chesapeake Bay, although I do see plenty of Bayliners. I have absolutly no problem with that statement. But, let's be honest, Harry, because you didn't see them does that really mean that they don't exist? Let's not get too existential in here, eh? It is one thing to state "in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing" It's quite another thing to state there is not ONE Trophy used for charter in 500 miles of developed coastline, as Scott has directly stated. There was one Bayliner Trophy used by a near-shore charter captain out of Jax. The only one I ever saw in all the years I fished that area. My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out. Why not? I've been aboard enough Bayliner Trophy boats to form an opinion about them. But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the past, that all. Indeed, some Bayliners have worked their way up to mediocre. Bob, I have no interest in "all" Bayliners or even very many of them. I have looked over the Trophies extensively over the years and determined their shortcomings are such I would not want one. Most of the larger non-Trophy Bayliners do not even slightly interest me, because they are too underpowered, too flat-bottomed, powered with I/O's,. have small fuel tanks, and so forth and so on. And I haven't addressed qualitative issues. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:34:21 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: If it isn't the right kind of plywood, it could be a problem, even if it is encapsulated. =================================== Absolutely right, marine plywood is built with higher grade wood, minimal voids in the plies, and with better glue. Surprisingly enough, that costs more. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
Harry Krause wrote in message ...
scottht wrote: Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner is to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose. I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I don't believe you can fool the laws of physics. There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound. Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out. Why not? I've been aboard enough Bayliner Trophy boats to form an opinion about them. Since you commented on my statement, I will refer to the same statement. Do you mean to tell me oof ALL the current brands of comparable boats ONLY BAYLINER TROPHIES are unsuitable enough to merit bad remarks? If the answer is "no" then: Why do you insist on singling out Bayliner? Why do you think that citing only the shortcommings of Bayliner boats, overlooking the shortcomming of other brands, is unbiased? If you answer is "yes" and you've never seen quality problems in ANY other brands you've boarded (and I would find that hard to believe), then perhaps you do have a point in your remarks. That point is that your experince indicates only Bayliner that is crap. But the other point may be, you don't have the experience to say all other brands AREN'T crap. So if you wrongly single out Bayliners, then your behaving in a irresponsible bigoted manner. For reasonable people that should be reason enough why you should not continue. Obviously it's still your choice though. But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the past, that all. Indeed, some Bayliners have worked their way up to mediocre. Indeed. Which Bayliners Harry? In what context (boating environment) are you referring to where these select few have "achieved" your elevated status of mediocrity? Specifically, in what way did these boats differentiate themselves from other boats in the brand? Once again, in lieu of a reasonable statement, you throw out a smart ass comment like this and expect people to just take it at face value? You make this comment and really believe that you "never infered all Bayliners are "crap""? You need to spend a little less time being "clever" at Bayliners expense, and a little more time taking what you write into consideration. Bob, I have no interest in "all" Bayliners or even very many of them. I have looked over the Trophies extensively over the years and determined their shortcomings are such I would not want one. Okay, that's understandable. IMHO you've made a perfectly resonable statement. Most of the larger non-Trophy Bayliners do not even slightly interest me, because they are too underpowered, too flat-bottomed, powered with I/O's,. have small fuel tanks, and so forth and so on. And I haven't addressed qualitative issues. IMHO that is a somewhat unreasonable statement, because you are now citing shortcomings that are widely known over a variety of boat brands, but sticking the Bayliner name with the blame. If ONLY Bayliner were guilty of these shortcomings listed, it would be a reasonable statement. But I've seen examples that this is not even remotely the case. This, and alot of other statements you've made in the past, tend to hold only Bayliner accountable for common practices throughout the industry. HONESTLY Harry, you don't see this pattern with your posts? You HONESTLY think you give Bayliners a fair shake in ALL of your comments? We've seen many reasonable statements and anectodotal evidence as why Bayliners does not merit first consideration from many boaters. Some of those statements were made by you. In this thread, I've tried not to argue against any reasonable statement. In contrast, I've made, and seen reasonable statements and anectdotal evidence of Bayliners being used and enjoyed for many power boating applications. If we take both viewpoints at face value, it is a reasonable inference that not all Bayliners are universally "bad" for every application. In light of this, people who feel the need to continue, to contradict this inferred truism, by belittling this brand name in global terms, without clarification or facts, and without provocation, are IMHO acting in a rude manner, doing a disservice to the rec.boats community as a whole, and should be dismissed as: Boating snobs, who derive security in the "us vs. them" mentality. Little trolls, who take some perverse pleasure in inciting disharmony. Just plain ignorant, being either, too stupid, too lazy ,or small minded, to take any contradictory evidence into consideration. We're arguing Baliners here, but I feel this scales well to anyone making absolute statements, bashing any boat or person. Bob Dimond |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Hmmm.... I never thought of that. Seems right to me. Curious, within
Non-Marine Plywood are there different grades? Just wondering... On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:34:21 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: If it isn't the right kind of plywood, it could be a problem, even if it is encapsulated. =================================== Absolutely right, marine plywood is built with higher grade wood, minimal voids in the plies, and with better glue. Surprisingly enough, that costs more. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
"basskisser" wrote in message om... Harry Krause wrote in message ... scottht wrote: Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner is to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose. I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I don't believe you can fool the laws of physics. There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound. Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets. I'm sure, but I don't know enough about the physics of accoustics to understand how a tiny speaker can move the air necessary to create the low sounds found in the serious music I enjoy. As an example, I have an old Hammond B3, with a Leslie speaker. It's a fine electronic organ, though certainly not state of the art. I can make it emulate a pipe organ, and it sounds fine doing so. But it doesn't sound like anything Dirk Flentrop built. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
And won't come close to anything that Hope Jones built
Harry Krause wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message om... Harry Krause wrote in message ... scottht wrote: Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner is to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose. I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I don't believe you can fool the laws of physics. There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound. Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets. I'm sure, but I don't know enough about the physics of accoustics to understand how a tiny speaker can move the air necessary to create the low sounds found in the serious music I enjoy. As an example, I have an old Hammond B3, with a Leslie speaker. It's a fine electronic organ, though certainly not state of the art. I can make it emulate a pipe organ, and it sounds fine doing so. But it doesn't sound like anything Dirk Flentrop built. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:54:26 -0400, (Bob
D.) wrote: Curious, within Non-Marine Plywood are there different grades? Just wondering... ================================================== === Many different grades, depending on appearance and intended purpose. Here are some basics: http://www.awi-wa.com/_hidden/T_APA%...%20GRADING.htm |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ...
"basskisser" wrote in message om... Harry Krause wrote in message ... scottht wrote: Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner is to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose. I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I don't believe you can fool the laws of physics. There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound. Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets. I'm sure, but I don't know enough about the physics of accoustics to understand how a tiny speaker can move the air necessary to create the low sounds found in the serious music I enjoy. As an example, I have an old Hammond B3, with a Leslie speaker. It's a fine electronic organ, though certainly not state of the art. I can make it emulate a pipe organ, and it sounds fine doing so. But it doesn't sound like anything Dirk Flentrop built. While not a physics expert, I agree with the moving air statement. That being said, I don't know how they do it, but they do. Some high end small speakers surprise you with there sound. Does your B3 have the turntable speaker? LOVE those! |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:58:24 +0000, Scott McFadden wrote:
(Bob D.) wrote in message ... A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner. Yeah, Florida is "the world". Reminds me of the headlines in Britain when intense fog shut down all traffic in the English Channel: "Europe Cut Off!" Here on the West Coast of Canada, the vast majority of fishing charters use Bayliner Trophies (or Hourstons or Double-Eagles, but "the world" doesn't know about them...). Brett on the Charlottes just traded his Hourston in for a Trophy, and yesterday there was Hurricane-force winds (60knots) and 10-meter seas there (not saying he went OUT in those conditions, but pointing out that they DO get "weather" there) Lloyd |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 19:37:18 +0000, Harry Krause wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message om... Harry Krause wrote in message ... scottht wrote: Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner is to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose. I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I don't believe you can fool the laws of physics. There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound. Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets. I'm sure, but I don't know enough about the physics of accoustics to understand how a tiny speaker can move the air necessary to create the low sounds found in the serious music I enjoy. As an example, I have an old Hammond B3, with a Leslie speaker. It's a fine electronic organ, though certainly not state of the art. I can make it emulate a pipe organ, and it sounds fine doing so. But it doesn't sound like anything Dirk Flentrop built. In fact, I've never heard anything electronic that truly "sounds just like" a REAL Leslie speaker! And I agree about Bose - never liked them. Geez, they've been using ceramics and rare-earth magnets for 40 years... I have a Marantz 2325 driving homebuilt 3-way speakers (the wood alone cost almost $1000) Haven't heard a "modern" system that can beat it yet. Lloyd |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
In fact, I've never heard anything electronic that truly "sounds just
like" a REAL Leslie speaker! Can't be done, unless one set up an almost continuous row of speakers and figured out how to fire them sequentially. Much easier to use the real McCoy. The magic of a Leslie isn't just the rise and fall of the tremolo, it's the directional nature of sound as it reflects off of every vertical surface near the stage. A Leslie speaker literally immerses the audience in a nice, plump, chord. The electronic equivalent sounds exactly like somebody *recorded* a Leslie speaker. Not the same thing. Until recently, keyboard players have been plagued with staggering loads of gear. The poor guy dragging an awkward, heavy, bulky Fender Rhodes 88, (or the crew it takes to hoist a traditional B3) up a flight of steps from the loading zone has to look somewhat enviously at the guys carrying 5-pound guitars. Music is becoming so anemic. Every little electronic trick makes "live" music sound more and more like a badly engineered recording. You almost have to accept that in a small club without much of an audience all "drumming" will be done by an invisible robot......but some of the current technology is getting extreme. These "smart" microphones that make virtually anybody sound like they can sing, (and most especially harmonize), actually erase some of the characteristic overtones that make a good vocal talent a special treat. |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
Hey, Thanks Wayne.
In article , wrote: On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:54:26 -0400, (Bob D.) wrote: Curious, within Non-Marine Plywood are there different grades? Just wondering... ================================================== === Many different grades, depending on appearance and intended purpose. Here are some basics: http://www.awi-wa.com/_hidden/T_APA%...%20GRADING.htm |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:48:20 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: It's a 21H leslie and if by turntable, you mean the rotor below the bass speaker, yes. But I'd still like a four-manual Flentrop and a barn big enough to play it in. When I was a young kid, I had a friend who's parents built their house around a pipe organ. It was pretty cool. Steve |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:58:24 +0000, Scott McFadden wrote: (Bob D.) wrote in message ... A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner. Yeah, Florida is "the world". Harry is right, some of you are not careful readers. I did not say, or insinuate, FL was the "world". Here on the West Coast of Canada, the vast majority of fishing charters use Bayliner Trophies (or Hourstons or Double-Eagles, but "the world" doesn't know about them...). That is their problem. No doubt they're working protected waters, a few months of the year. So, they can hardly be compared to the year round, long range, type of offshore operations that I'm refering to. Brett on the Charlottes just traded his Hourston in for a Trophy, and yesterday there was Hurricane-force winds (60knots) and 10-meter seas there (not saying he went OUT in those conditions, but pointing out that they DO get "weather" there) In another month there will be probably more Canucks in FL than there are left in Canada. No wonder. Yes indeed, lovely weather you got there, Lloyd. -- SJM |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring
"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:48:20 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: It's a 21H leslie and if by turntable, you mean the rotor below the bass speaker, yes. But I'd still like a four-manual Flentrop and a barn big enough to play it in. When I was a young kid, I had a friend who's parents built their house around a pipe organ. It was pretty cool. Steve See: http://news.mpr.org/features/200001/03_postt_organ-m/ There is a great show on NPR: pipe dreams. If you like this sort of thing you can hear it online at: http://www.pipedreams.org/listings/shows03_09.htm Mark Browne |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:40:22 +0000, Scott McFadden wrote:
"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message ... On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:58:24 +0000, Scott McFadden wrote: (Bob D.) wrote in message ... A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner. Yeah, Florida is "the world". Harry is right, some of you are not careful readers. I did not say, or insinuate, FL was the "world". Then how do YOU describe your "proof" that Trophies are universally unacceptable because there aren't any in FL? Also, see below. Here on the West Coast of Canada, the vast majority of fishing charters use Bayliner Trophies (or Hourstons or Double-Eagles, but "the world" doesn't know about them...). That is their problem. No doubt they're working protected waters, a few months of the year. So, they can hardly be compared to the year round, long range, type of offshore operations that I'm refering to. Sure. Protected waters. A few months. Don't have a clue about the rest of the world except SE US, do you? Brett on the Charlottes just traded his Hourston in for a Trophy, and yesterday there was Hurricane-force winds (60knots) and 10-meter seas there (not saying he went OUT in those conditions, but pointing out that they DO get "weather" there) In another month there will be probably more Canucks in FL than there are left in Canada. Showing once again you have no clue about the rest of the world. West Coasters go to CA, not FL (at least we used to before you got all Terrorist-paranoid). Can't say I know ANYONE on the West Coast who's EVER gone to FL for vacation (except maybe on their way to the Carribean) And I'll bet a Moosehead you couldn't find the Charlottes on a map. Yes indeed, lovely weather you got there, Lloyd. Yes, right now it's 12deg (that's 53degs F - most of the Rest Of The World uses a different system of measurements than you do) and sunny. Took the motorbike to work today. Thinking of going fishing this weekend. And speaking of weather, how's that hurricane stuff working out for you? Got your supply of plywood? Lloyd |
New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message .. .
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:40:22 +0000, Scott McFadden wrote: "Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message ... On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:58:24 +0000, Scott McFadden wrote: (Bob D.) wrote in message ... A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner. Yeah, Florida is "the world". Harry is right, some of you are not careful readers. I did not say, or insinuate, FL was the "world". Then how do YOU describe your "proof" that Trophies are universally unacceptable because there aren't any in FL? Also, see below. Again, you demonstrate an obvious reading comprehension problem. I did not say they were "universally unacceptable". I said where I saw them, what they were doing and, where I do not see them. Here on the West Coast of Canada, the vast majority of fishing charters use Bayliner Trophies (or Hourstons or Double-Eagles, but "the world" doesn't know about them...). That is their problem. No doubt they're working protected waters, a few months of the year. So, they can hardly be compared to the year round, long range, type of offshore operations that I'm refering to. Sure. Protected waters. A few months. Don't have a clue about the rest of the world except SE US, do you? Don't give a damn about the West coast of Canada, that's for sure. Brett on the Charlottes just traded his Hourston in for a Trophy, and yesterday there was Hurricane-force winds (60knots) and 10-meter seas there (not saying he went OUT in those conditions, but pointing out that they DO get "weather" there) In another month there will be probably more Canucks in FL than there are left in Canada. Showing once again you have no clue about the rest of the world. West Coasters go to CA, not FL (at least we used to before you got all Terrorist-paranoid). There's that reading comprehension difficulty cropping up again. I did not say "West Coasters" do not go to California. Can't say I know ANYONE on the West Coast who's EVER gone to FL for vacation (except maybe on their way to the Carribean) How many of the +- 2,000,000 residents of Vancouver do you know, eh? And I'll bet a Moosehead you couldn't find the Charlottes on a map. +- 500 "kilometers" N of Vancouver, BC? I'll have a Molson, instead. Yes indeed, lovely weather you got there, Lloyd. Yes, right now it's 12deg (that's 53degs F - most of the Rest Of The World uses a different system of measurements than you do) and sunny. I think it's quite clear we don't care what "most of the Rest Of The World uses". Took the motorbike to work today. Thinking of going fishing this weekend. And speaking of weather, how's that hurricane stuff working out for you? Got your supply of plywood? I guess a whole lot better than it is for you as I'm not the one yapping about "hurricane force winds 60knots", you are. -- SJM |
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