A great Bayliner Story...
 

This is long, but sumitted for two reasons:

1) I do like telling the story, and hope you find it entertaining

2) To dispute Harry's "facts" that all Bayliners are crappy an cannot
possibly take weather.

My first powerboat was a 16 foot bayliner Capri Cuddy with an 85HP Force
Outboard. In the one season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it,
in Lake Erie, in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.

The best example of the later, occurred on Labor Day of 1999, the day
before (sunday) on our way back from a trip to Windsor, and Wyandote, we
stopped off at South Bass Island for a little extra party time. The
Dimond brothers proceeded to terrorize the small village of Put-in-Bay
(PIB) in our usual was by drinking lots, laughing loud, and making
friends.

That night I was asleep outside the cabin on the jump seat because of the
unbearable humidity without any breeze. At around 4am I awoke to use the
head and found the most comfortable gentle breeze, with a humidity that
dropped instantly. It was then I suspected a nor'easter was going to
hit. I crawled in the cabin for a few more hours sleep and awoke to a
very stiff blow by 9:00am.

At 9:00am I awoke to stumble to the bathroom (again). At that time I
found our PIB Dockmaster, Keith, posting the NWS 8:00am forecast. Not
Good. I then tuned to VHF to get the latest forecast, which posted a
strong, persistent NNE wind with the current wave heights from the SBI
bouy at 5 to 7 feet, with wave heights ranging from 8 to 10 feet in the
afternoon.

Knowing it would only get worse, not wanting to miss to my Girlfriends
BBQ, and needing to get to work on Tuesday, I frantically woke by
Brother, Rich. I told him to get his ass in gear, we have to leave before
the heavy stuff hits. Richard, having certain southern qualities and
probably hung over, meandered to the bathroom at a pace much slower than I
had hoped.

By 10am we were donned with Live vests and leaving the dock in a light
rain. Because of my lack of experience, I opted to have the top down
while leaving the dock, due to the added windage. The people who saw us
off looked at my bother with sympathy when I refused their courteous offer
to stay. We shoved off from Miller's and headed east towards the PIB
municipal docks.

To paraphrase George Costanza: The Bay was angry my friend, like an old
man trying to send back soup in a deli. As we were heading out of the
bay, we were hitting 3-4 foot waves IN THE BAY. In order to stay dry my
brother tried to put the top up, but then I couldnt see. I unzipped the
center and peered out through the hole. Unfortunately the wind was so
strong that the hole allowed the wind to pull the top off of the remaining
snaps when we started to power up. So here I am trying to drive the boat
in ever increasing wind, waves, and rain, screaming at my brother to move
his ass and get the F*cking top stowed away.

A few moments after he gets the top stowed he comes back next to me. I
turned to him and in that moment BAM! My face hit the windshield frame.
(Note to Harry, the Windshield did not break) I could taste the blood
comming out of my mouth. I then turned to my brother, smiled, and in my
best Carl from Caddyshak impersonation said "I think we should press on...
I don't think the heavy stuff comming for quite some time". With that
we laughed like hyena and pressed on.

We hit the second worst port of our journey about 3/4 of a mile past the
green SBI marker. It was there the boat stalled. Out of gas. I asked
my brother to switch the tanks. Not smart. Once again I watched my
brother in his laid back fashion fumbling to switch the tank, a job that I
learned to do in about three seconds. I turned my attention toward the
lake, where I watched helplessly as an eight foot wall of water was
approaching our stern. If this wave breaks the boat will probably sink
is all I could think about. I then yelled at my brother to hurry the
F*CK up! The wave passed beneath us (it didn't break) and our engine
strarted up on its fresh tank. We then headed toward the South south
west where the ride would be in the lee side of South Bass while taking
the weather further abeam. All the while reciting the mantra of Carl from
Caddyshak.

As we cruised we saw only three boats. One appeared to be a 25 foot Lyman
or Skiff-Craft as it was clearly a lapstrake inboard. The other two were
sedans in the 30 to 35 foot range. We started behind them headed a
little more SSW to diminish the weather, then back tracked SE to a point
SW of the SW kelly shore, where we were still taking the waves further
abeam and and passed them all. More than ever my brother and I were all
smiles and laughter, though I can't honesty say why. I probably had a
concussion, I don't know what his excuse was. As we headed further SE,
towards the inlet I thought clearly the worst was over as kellys should
help harbor us into Sandusky Bay. Clearly my inexperience would prove me
wrong.

As we made the Sandusky Bay inlet the water was being funneled between
Kelly's Island, Marblehead point and the Ceder Point breakwall. What a
mess. The wave action was all over, with the majority of action heading
form out of due north to give us following seas. There was a channel
which cut from the western shore of the Sandusky inlet to the Nothern
shore of Sandusky Bay's protected waters. I had only a vague notion of
where it was, but on this day, I was determined to find it.

As we headed south west to hug the shore we managed to find the red marker
marking the channel. We darted for it and found ourself in the flat
protected water of the channel. The channel lead us to the flat protected
water of Sandusky bays North shore, about two miles due north of my home
port the Dock of the Bay Marina. We arrived at the dock at about
11:15am, soaked to the bone, desperately needing the restroom, but in
great spirits.

As we exited the restroom to head back to the boat, a woman in her mid
fifties approached me. "Oh my god! You didn't take your boat back last
night did you?" She said with surprise. Looking like Dan Quayle after
being asked to spell Potato I said "huh? Uh.. No.?" She noted the lack
or recognition and said: "Don't you remember? You guys saw my Dock of the
Bay shirt and were hanging around with my husband and I last night at
Tippers? We were taking the (Island) Rocket back and you guys said you
were staying on your boat. You guys were so drunk, I just assumed you
weren't taking your boat back last night!" "We didn't." I repeated.
"Oh.. did you leave your boat up there, and ferry back?" I replied: "No,
we came back today." "Well you guys are brave, considering the weather
out there. Our friends had to leave their 35 footer at the bay, and took
the rocket back. So where's your boat?" I pointed to the southeast slip
of the outside pier, nearest the parking lot. "Right there." She
gasped: "Don't tell me you came back in that boat!", pointing the new 28
foot Formula that was in line of sight. "No." I lead her a little
further towards the pier where the Tiny 16 foot cuddy started to peer out
from behind the Formula "That one." She gasped and "Oh my God! Are you
crazy?" Rich and I reassured here that while it wasn't a leisurely
cruise, it was not that bad. I really don't think we had her convinced
though.

I called Michelle and told here we were going to make her BBQ. When we
arrived whe told her and her family the story of our weekend in Windsor
and the, coup de gras, our trip back from Put-in-Bay. A week later
Michelle informed me that friends of her family, beached their 54 foot
Carver in the bay by Perry's Monument due to the wind conditions that
day. Said Carver was complete with twin engines (of course) and a bow
thruster.

We told my dad about our story. He looked at me laughed and said: "You're
an idiot." Looked at my brother, smiled, and said: "You're an idiot for
going with him!" I said: "We had a GPS two VHF radios, a cell phone,
life jackets on, and were in familiar waters in bad weather Besides,
before Richard was born, we had been out in the similar conditions on a
smaller boat!". No further comment was made, except "Well... okay. Just
be careful."


Bob Dimond

A great Bayliner Story...
 

Boat brand aside,

Your choice to put out in the conditions you describe "so you didn't miss your
girlfriend's BBQ" is nothing short of astonishing.

This is an interesting tale only because you survived to tell it. Had you not,
your loss could hardly be blamed on the boat builder.

You describe taking a 16-foot boat into 8- foot seas on the verge of breaking.
That's not a cruise, it's a stunt. And not a very bright one.

"I watched helplessly as an eight foot wall of water was approaching our stern.
If this wave breaks the boat will probably sink."

If you get pooped by a breaking 8-footer in a 16-foot runabout built by
anybody, death is more likely than survival.


The specific problem with telling tales of this nature is that some poor
schmuck with a 16-foot Bayliner is going to voluntarily venture out in 8-foot
seas and think it's a fine, safe, smart thing to do because he read pn the
internet someplace that "guys do it all the time". :-(

Anectdotal Evidence for Harry...
 

In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any
boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

Interesting. Were you out demoing that 55 footer, or was it someone
personal boat? If it belonged to someone, did you have the rudeness, and
conviction of opinion, to tell that captain to his face that his boat was
crap? You never answered that original question in you more general
statements, so I am still curious, if the situation presents itself, and
you see somone you don't know, in a bayliner would you (anyone who
dislikes bayliners) call their boat a piece of crap to their face? If
not, why do you (and others) persist in doing it here?

Well at least now your qualifying your so called "facts". I'm not sure
why not keeping up with a smaller boat makes any boat crap, but trust me,
I'll use that later on.

I'll also admit I was wrong, in assuming you have no experience with
Bayliners. Your personal experiences with Bayliner boats were ALL bad.
So now you think Bayliners are crap, that's quite understandable, given
the information you've provided, and if that were the only information you
had available to you, I can see why you present it as fact.

But.... Here's some anectdotal evidence of my own...

In the 2 1/2 seasons I've owned my second hand 17 year old Bayliner I've
logged over 1,000 miles. My trips ranged from 20 to 300 miles in weather
ranging from dead calm to 4-6 foot waves (according to the NWS bulletin
and buoy data). Other than having the Volvo outdrive rebuilt, and a
broken bimini cap, I've had no problems.

Previous to that, I owned a little Bayliner 16 foot cuddy. In the one
season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it. Once again this
vessel has been out in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.
Should you read my other post "A Bayliner Story... ", by your logic of a
smaller boat traveling rough seas faster, proves a larger vessels
inferiority, then my crappy bayliner is better than a 25ft
Lyman/Skiff-Craft, or a 30-35 foot Sedans.

In the 17 years my friend has owned his Bayliner Ciera 2155 it would be a
safe bet that her captain "Thiry Second Pete" (named that because he was
only at his dock for thirty seconds before heading out) has piloted his
"crap" vessel well over 4300 miles. This is a very conservative
estimate. This boat has ferried us from the Port of Lorain to South Bass
island countless times in conditions ranging from still (rarely) up to
8-10 foot seas. I will freely admit the weekend we went out into 8-10's
we put in halfway (about 20 miles) at the Port of Hurom where it continued
to blow out of the North until the following Tuesday forcing us to hitch a
ride back to Pete's marina. Except for mechanical wear and tear, and the
cockpit interior being shot because he never kept his boat covered, the
boat is in fully operational condition. If you knew Pete, you would know
that his "crap Bayliner" did not survive becuase of his dilligent care and
upkeep.

I could cite more anectdotes but I think I've clearly made my point. So
what's my point? The point is that ALL my positive experiences have just
as much weight and bering in reality as all of Harry's negative
experiences, whether you like it or not. AND just as I can't dispute
what Harry's witnessed, Harry cannot dispute what I've witnessed.

And yet inspite of an experience base on Bayliners, that may equal or
surpass your own, I cannot categorically state that Bayliners are worse,
as good, or better than any other boat manufacturer out there. Why?
Because realistically I have not been on every Bayliner, and I have not
been every other boat from every other manufacturer that Bayliners would
compare to, in fact, no one has. Because of this fact, I can never refute
any statement that says "My friends Bayliner is crap". And can only
refute a statement citing "This model of Bayliner is crap" if I have had
experience with that model.

What I can state is "NOT ALL BAYLINERS ARE CRAP", because my personal
experiences have proven that to be true. That statement is not an
inference, it is a truism, something that you cannot dispute without
having absolute experience and expertise on the subject. Harry, and
others who see fit to lump Bayliners into one simple category, when you've
been on every boat of every Bayliner model then you will have the
experience and knowledge to concur with me or dispute me. Until then
you're pretty much just ****ing up a rope, aren't you?

I can't stop you from passing off your opinion as fact, as you've repeated
done in the past. But IMHO it is a narrow-minded, individual who forms an
opinion on a limited ammount of data to make inferences on the
characterisitcs of an entire population, while passing these flawed
inferences off as absolute truths, despite evidence to the contrary. As
for why someone who refuses to acknowledge evidence contray to their
opinion, and modify their opinion, my only guess is their either too
prideful, lazy, or too stupid to adapt in light of new information.

While I have to respect your opinion on Bayliners and understand why you
don't like them, I have no repect for you or anyone who makes claims that
ALL Bayliners are "crap", bashing them at every opportunity as if your
experience equals some undisputed truth.



In which ocean do you boat, Bob?


In answer to you question, I boat on the Great Lakes, Harry. My home port
is out of Ohio, on the south shore of Lake Erie. While I'll freely admit
it's not an ocean, I'd love to see you try to bash or dismiss my boating
environment as limited in challenge or "flat water".

Been out in the Florida Gulf as well, Loved the sailing, hated the
dampness everywhere when the sun set. Might still go back though if I buy
another sailboat.

I


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

In article ,
(Scott McFadden) wrote:

(Bob D.) wrote in message
...

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of
evidence

Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key
West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner.

Good luck, there aren't any.

I guess it's the "opinion" of these charter Capt's, who are on the
water everyday possible, that Bayliner is not their 1st, 2nd, 3rd,
4th, ect, ect, "choice" if you look at brands of boats in use for that
kind of activity.


Well, I'm not from Florida, how big of an area is this area? If it's a
small area, then is it an accurate sample? If it's a large area, do you
mean to tell me you know EVERY charter boat in that area??? And even if
you do, does this directly means that all Bayliners are crap???


Oh, and take a look at this thread:

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=107267

Hardcore offshore and inshore FL fishermen and, the last time I
checked, over 170 different boats pictured. (note to self: get a pic
of the boat on there to bolster the Whaler fleet)

What a surprise, looks like Bayliner is "missing in action", once
again.

Wouldn't you've expected a better showing from such a "popular" brand
of boat?


Sorry, I didn't look at all 170 pictures. I did get your point though. A
few comments...

Are there only 170 Fisherman in Florida? I don't know much, but I'd guess
there are more. Is the Trophy contingent accurately represented in those
170 pictures? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. Do you know? Of course
not.

Also doe this lacking of Bayliners (specifically Trophys) mean the boat is
not suitable for the hardcore offshore and inshore fishing, but a 14 foot
aluminium bass boat is? Now you're just being silly! (Note to self:
post my 2160 Trophy to shut Scott up) Just kidding, Scott.

I can't disput evidence you present does argue a point if we keep our
inferences solely within the context you've presented, Bayliners are not
popular. Once again does imply that Trophys are not popular anywhere?
Don't know. Does that directly equate to all Bayliners being inferior?
Not really. Does your evidence out weigh my personal experinces with the
brand? Not to me.


So, where do I see Bayliners? Bee-bopping up and down the ICW on
weekends, picnicing on sandbars/spoil islands and, looking like they
are having a real good time doing so. They're all over the place.

Which is exactly where and, doing exactly what, they were "designed"
for.

You may be right, there Scott! But that can be said of a host of other
brands, implying no real inferiority. And just because a Bayliner,
usually an entry level boat, isn't seen in other enviroment, doesn't mean
they are unsuatable for them. At least, not in my experience.


Some of us, however, are a bit more demanding.
--
SJM

Whoa there.... Scott. Ya started off kinda jerky, but then were sounding
like a pretty reasonable guy, until that last left-handed comment.

Contrary to what many elitest believe, the boat don't make the skipper.
I've been out in a 16' Bayliner in 6-8's in Lake Erie (And let me tell
you, those are NOT ocean swells). Conversely, my ex-girlfiens bought a
28' Four Winns which can probably easily handle that weather, but after
three seasons has yet to see anything on Lake Erie over 3 feet (that's a
rough day for her family). I've seen alot of nice 35-40 foot boats that
never leave the dock. If you didn't mean it that way, do youself a favor
and don't go there 'cause that the quickest road to "Horses Ass ville" you
can find.

If you did mean it as an insult, it explains why you debate with pictures
:^) (sorry)

Take Care,

Bob Dimond

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

I seem to infer? I inferred no such thing. There are lots of crappy boats.



While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration. If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.



Also cn you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

I've seen Bayliners in rough water pop the rivets that hold their hulls
and decks together. I've seen Bayliners with plain, untreated plywood
behind seat cushions. I've seen Bayliners where the hullsides and botton
"tin can" in moderate seas.

I wouldn't go out of sight of land in a Bayliner, much less 30 miles
offshore.

Working on a presumpton that ANY boat would deteriorate this badly in 50
hours, you've given some fine examples. I can't dispute these incidents,
and it definitely would jade MY opinion of Bayliners in general if it
happened to me.

But lets be realistic. Can all your "experiences" really scale to every
Bayliner ever built? This get too the very problem I have with your
comments!

Whenever the opportunity presents itself, you routinely bash bayliners,
inferring that all Bayliner are crap. You do so without ANY constructive
or positive comments, and without qualifying ANY of your remarks. If you
have not done so overtly, you have at least inferred that every bayliner
is crap and present it to this group as fact.

Harry, I can't argue that you and even people you know have had ****ty
experience with Bayliner. Hell, I can't even argue that Bayliner is a
good boat! I can only offer my experience which refutes what you have
routinely handed out as fact, which is all bayliners are crap. Like I
said, even if you never made that direct statement , your actions on this
group have clearly illustrated this bigotry.


What's *your* boating experience, Bob? Mine goes back more than 50 years.


50 Years? Wow your older than 50? Hmmm... By your constant smart ass
quips, I would have pegged you as an angry teenager. Within the context
of our discussion, I really don't know how one's boating experience counts
for anything, so I'll assume you want to get to know me, so here's a
condensed boating resume...

I've been boating since age 4 for 34 years. Manning lines since age 6.
Trusted to secure the boat at anchor by 10 (a very funny story). Plotting
Courses, by age 12. Piloting our (family) 31 foot Jersey by age 14.
Pilliging PIB by 22.

I've only had the pleasure of owning vessels under 23 feet. I taught
myself to sail in an 11 foot sea snark. Moved up to a 16 foot lapstrake
cape cod catboat. (Sorry, but if you want to brag about the "classic
lines of a Parker", you wouldn't cut it with me). The catboat was too
much work and interferred with my carrousing, so I bought a Spindrift 19.
Then bought a Macgregor 21 Cutter rig which I started but never finished
so I gave it away. Bought a Renken 17 sailboat. Went into powerboating,
throughly enjoyed my Bayliner 16 cuddy, Enjoyed my Bayliner 2160 Trophy,
sold the Renken, and currently enjoy my Chris-Craft 232AC, which I pieced
together after its 13 year hiattus. Looking at obtain a 27 foot
powerboat, and perhaps a 22 foot Catboat for next season.

Traveled through Great Lakes Ontario, Erie, Huron, and Lake St Clair.
Been as far East as Montreal as Far North as Mackinaw City. Locked
through the Welland and Trent-Severn waterways. Sailed along the Florida
panhandle.

I have little doubt that my buddy tony will at least try talk me into a
trans-atlantic crossing before were in our mid fourties. Must admit, with
the right sailboat, it does sound intriguing.

I am BY NO MEANS the most experienced boater out there, nor do I profess
to be. I do feel I have a *pretty good* handle on things within this
realm. This make me your worst nightmare, Mr Krause, as I usually know
when someone is talking out their ass, and passing it off as knowledge.

Hope this helps,

Bob Dimond

A great Bayliner Story...
 

Your point is well taken, especially for anyone copy cating my actions.

As for my safety, depending on the winds, I routinely go out in 3-5 on
Lake Erie. Hell you rarely have a choice! And if I'm away from home
port will routinely brave 4-6's to get back.

Eries 6-8's I would take now if I had to, but I'm not a bold as I use to
be. I did it then. I had experience with the water, and was prepared for
it. I was none the worse for wear for doing it, and did not feel that
endangered while doing it. Would I do it now in a 16 foot boat now?
Hmmmm..... *leaning* towards no on that one.

My upbringing taught me to respect and prepare for the rough water but not
necessarily fear it. In the instance you cited, you right my boat could
have just as easily sunk. But that contingency was and IS to this day
planned for. Watertight boxes with portable GPS, Flares, Portable VHF,
and visual marker are at my feet in any adverse weather. Life jackets on
not withing arms reach, but on. If its practical, an EPIRB is next on my
list.

I was not a stranger to boat handling even in rough weather. At ten
years I stood outside the cabin, on deck in 10-12 foot Huron swells, with
instructions that if the Jerseys gunn'ls touch the water to jump off. I
was not scared I had instructions and they would have been followed. I
knew my life depended upon it. I've gotten stuck in 6 foot seas while I
was traveling from Lorain to Huron (about 20 miles), in a 16 foot
Catboat. I was scared.

I was taught, and later relearned, that fear, in moderation, is good thing
to keep you out of harms way, but bad if you're already in it.

For as much boating as I try to do, the length of trips I like to take, I
think while it was not the most prudent, it was good for me. I can not
speak for our east and west coastal waters, but on the north coast there
is no such thing as only going out in good weather when your traveling any
distance or overnighting.

Please don't get the impression that I go off haphazzardly going
yeeehaaa. I prepare and try to minimize or mitigate every rick I
encounter in waters that are well know to me. I've been brought up that
way.

Still, thanks again for putting my story in a fresh and better
perspective. I do hope others will take your comments to heart as well!


In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

Boat brand aside,

Your choice to put out in the conditions you describe "so you didn't miss your
girlfriend's BBQ" is nothing short of astonishing.

This is an interesting tale only because you survived to tell it. Had you not,
your loss could hardly be blamed on the boat builder.

You describe taking a 16-foot boat into 8- foot seas on the verge of breaking.
That's not a cruise, it's a stunt. And not a very bright one.

"I watched helplessly as an eight foot wall of water was approaching our
stern.
If this wave breaks the boat will probably sink."

If you get pooped by a breaking 8-footer in a 16-foot runabout built by
anybody, death is more likely than survival.


The specific problem with telling tales of this nature is that some poor
schmuck with a 16-foot Bayliner is going to voluntarily venture out in 8-foot
seas and think it's a fine, safe, smart thing to do because he read pn the
internet someplace that "guys do it all the time". :-(

Anectdotal Evidence for Harry...
 

Very well put! LMAO

Note to Bob : I wouldn't be too concerned over the opinion of an
armchair sailor with a pirate on the side of his boat.

A great Bayliner Story...
 

So I've heard. Other than boat length, I did go out prepared though.


Great story and I certainly can vouch for the conditions you
encountered.

That said, I agree with your Dad.

A great Bayliner Story...
 

Bob D. wrote:
This is long, but sumitted for two reasons:

1) I do like telling the story, and hope you find it entertaining

2) To dispute Harry's "facts" that all Bayliners are crappy an cannot
possibly take weather.

My first powerboat was a 16 foot bayliner Capri Cuddy with an 85HP Force
Outboard. In the one season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it,
in Lake Erie, in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.

You measure your boat usage in miles? And in one season you put on 250
miles? Wow. You're some experienced boater, especially when you were
taking on those six to eight foot waves in your 16' Bayliner.

A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.

Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Anectdotal Evidence for Harry...
 

Bob D. wrote:

In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any
boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

Interesting. Were you out demoing that 55 footer, or was it someone
personal boat?

Neither.



You never answered that original question in you more general
statements, so I am still curious, if the situation presents itself, and
you see somone you don't know, in a bayliner would you (anyone who
dislikes bayliners) call their boat a piece of crap to their face?


Depends. If it was a little Bayliner and the experienced,
250-miles-a-year-boater was heading out into eight-foot waves, yeah, I'd
probably tell him he had a crappy boat, unsuited for what he was intending.



But.... Here's some anectdotal evidence of my own...

In the 2 1/2 seasons I've owned my second hand 17 year old Bayliner I've
logged over 1,000 miles. My trips ranged from 20 to 300 miles in weather
ranging from dead calm to 4-6 foot waves (according to the NWS bulletin
and buoy data). Other than having the Volvo outdrive rebuilt, and a
broken bimini cap, I've had no problems.

Previous to that, I owned a little Bayliner 16 foot cuddy. In the one
season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it. Once again this
vessel has been out in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.
Should you read my other post "A Bayliner Story... ", by your logic of a
smaller boat traveling rough seas faster, proves a larger vessels
inferiority, then my crappy bayliner is better than a 25ft
Lyman/Skiff-Craft, or a 30-35 foot Sedans.

I don't think your old Bayliner is better, nor would I head out in six
to eight foot waves in my 36' boat, and it is built to take that kind of
stuff. What I think is that you are no brighter than another Bayliner
owner who used to post here and who claimed he took on 30' waves in his
22' Bayliner




I could cite more anectdotes but I think I've clearly made my point. So
what's my point?


That you are a really careless, foolhardy boater? You've convinced me.


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Bob D. wrote:


Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

I seem to infer? I inferred no such thing. There are lots of crappy boats.



While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I make no such inference.



I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration. If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.

I've criticized any number of boat brands for any number of reasons.





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A great Bayliner Story...
 

Harry,
If I didn't go out when the forecast was for 6-8 foot seas, I would
probably be restricted to about 10 days a year that I could cross the
gulf stream
Kelton
s/v Isle Escape

Harry Krause wrote:
snip

A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.

Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

On 4 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700, (Scott McFadden)
wrote:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"

========================================

It's kind of fun to fly down east coast on a clear day in the fall.

You can sometimes see the inlets breaking from 35,000 feet up.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Hey! I resemble that remark! (I'm left handed)

Not only that, but you risk the ire of the entire left wing of the NG!

-W

"Bob D." wrote in message
news:sailbad_d_sinner-

(paraphrased)

Ya were sounding like a reasonable guy, until that last left-handed
comment.

Anectdotal Evidence for Harry...
 

WaIIy wrote:

Note to Bob : I wouldn't be too concerned over the opinion of an
armchair sailor with a pirate on the side of his boat.



Actually, Wal-fert, I have a cartoon of a pirate on *both* sides of Yo
Ho. Everyone I have encounterd thinks both the name and the graphic are
cute as can be. Of course, I don't encounter many dumbed-down,
right-wing asswipes like you when I'm out boating.

As far as "armchair sailing," my guess is that the several hundred hours
I've put on my boats this season alone is a tad more than you have...and
my hours are away from the dock and with the engine running.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.



"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bob D. wrote:
I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

My guess is it is an urban legend. Who the hell would not have returned the
boat for warranty work. I would have expected the author to say it was a
friend of a friend who owned the Trophy.


"Mole" wrote in message
. net...
You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced
if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and
hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she
belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.



"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bob D. wrote:
I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Mole wrote:

You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this?


The boat has been back at the dealer's frequently...and...it is still a
Bayliner, corporate sleight of hand notwithstanding.


--
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email sent to will *never* get to me.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

"Mole" wrote in message
. net...
You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced
if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and
hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she
belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.

My brother has a 28' Trophy and it's actually a pretty nice boat, certainly
in comparison to the ski boat and the cruiser lines bayliner puts out. He
had plenty of trouble and it took several trips back to the dealer to get
them straightened out.

It has a real head. The only trouble is, because of how it's designed, if
you're more than 5' 9" you can't stand up to take a ****. You've got to
lean with your head cranked sideways against the bulkhead.

Fit and finish is much better than the other bayliner products if witnessed.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

jps wrote:

"Mole" wrote in message
. net...
You're telling me this is a 2003 Trophy with major problems and he just
accepts this? Hull cracks (10 year warranty)? Shorts (possble fire
hazard)? Windshield falling off? Won't track (does he KNOW how to trim
it)? Cushions already falling apart (under warranty and easily replaced
if
true)? My 2003 Trophy has more hours on it, has taken a pounding and
hasn't
exhibited ANY of the things you mention. In fact she looks like she
belongs
on the showroom floor. Are you sure you LOOKED at his boat? If it were
mine, I'd have the dealer replace it. Or is this just another old wives
tale about the Bayliner brand? But...a Trophy isn't a Bayliner
anymore...hasn't been in 3 years. A Brunswick group boat, yes, but a
Bayliner? No.

My brother has a 28' Trophy and it's actually a pretty nice boat, certainly
in comparison to the ski boat and the cruiser lines bayliner puts out. He
had plenty of trouble and it took several trips back to the dealer to get
them straightened out.

It has a real head. The only trouble is, because of how it's designed, if
you're more than 5' 9" you can't stand up to take a ****. You've got to
lean with your head cranked sideways against the bulkhead.

Fit and finish is much better than the other bayliner products if witnessed.



Bayliner has a 28' cruiser, the 288 model, that isn't a bad-looking
boat, and, in fact, I took a look at one a couple of years ago.
But...typical of Bayliner, it had some serious shortcomings, starting
with a much-too-small fuel tank and an I/O drive instead of an inboard
or at least a vee-drive. And the interior was decorated like an RV.
Without the idiotic radar arch, though, it is an attractive, traditional
cruiser, suitable for the Bay or the ICW. But it is a bit overpriced for
what it is.

--
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A great Bayliner Story...
 

A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.


Interesting. You put 250+ miles in a three day weekend. Something *I
also Have done* , Just not on a sixteen foot boat.

Harry what difference does it make whether I use miles, nautical miles
or hours? If your such a purist why did you use the term?

I use the term miles because it better implies experience. Anyone could
put 500 hours on an engine trolling, that would far exceed my time on
the boat, but not necessarily my experience. I have no problem standing
by my terminology, and no problem in considering your need to dismiss my
terminology as stupid arrogance.

Going out in eight footers is NOT my first choice for boating, but if
family and work comittments call, and I'm already away from homeport, it
may be considered.

But as I've seen in other posts, you've ignored the point. Choosing
instead to pick apart inconsequencial points of my argument.


Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.


We only regret that your ancestors didn't feel the same way...

A great Bayliner Story...
 

BOB wrote:


A few weeks ago, I put 250+ miles on one of my boats over a three day
weekend. But I didn't encounter any eight-footers. I check the weather
before I head out, and if eight-footers are predicted, I find something
else to do that day.


Interesting. You put 250+ miles in a three day weekend. Something *I
also Have done* , Just not on a sixteen foot boat.

Harry what difference does it make whether I use miles, nautical miles
or hours? If your such a purist why did you use the term?

It makes no difference to me. It just makes you look silly.




I use the term miles because it better implies experience. Anyone could
put 500 hours on an engine trolling, that would far exceed my time on
the boat, but not necessarily my experience.

Really? Miles equals experience? Not necessarily.



I have no problem standing
by my terminology, and no problem in considering your need to dismiss my
terminology as stupid arrogance.

I don't believe your terminology is stupid arrogance. More like stupid
ignorance.



Going out in eight footers is NOT my first choice for boating, but if
family and work comittments call, and I'm already away from homeport, it
may be considered.

As I stated, stupid ignorance. Unless you have to do so, going out in a
small boat on the Great Lakes while eight foot waves are about is stupid
ignorance. It puts you at great risk. And it also puts at great risk
those who might have to go out after you. It's dumb. We're not talking
eight-foot ocean swells here.


Maybe it is because I have no desire to win a Darwin Award.


We only regret that your ancestors didn't feel the same way...


No, they didn't. And they passed along genes to me that make me bright
enough to not want to earn one, either.

Perhaps you feel more comfortable with the Forrest Gump Award: Stupid is
as stupid does.


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email sent to will *never* get to me.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring
 

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

df--

While Catalina Island is only 26nm from the coast of California, I
suggest you look at the number of Bayliner's moored there.

I believe it's been "tried".

New one on me - Laminate Flooring
 

Dionysus Feldman wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

df--

While Catalina Island is only 26nm from the coast of California, I
suggest you look at the number of Bayliner's moored there.

I believe it's been "tried".


I suppose I should qualify my remarks, because there are substantial
differences between the sea state of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans
most of the time.

Typically, the Atlantic is a far tougher body of water to boat and fish
in than the Pacific, along most of the United States coastal areas and,
on the Atlantic, out to where the Gulf Stream is (north of Florida, of
course).

Despite the substantial number of Bayliner sales, you rarely see any out
in the Atlantic, outside of sight of shore, and, in fact, I rarely see
any out in the Atlantic, close to shore. A Bayliner sighting in the
Atlantic was an unusual occurence off the shores of NE Florida, where I
spent hundreds and hundreds of hours boating and fishing.


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New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Ooops. Uh,Oh..


In article 2tCfb.496627$cF.175117@rwcrnsc53, "Clams Canino"
wrote:

Hey! I resemble that remark! (I'm left handed)

Not only that, but you risk the ire of the entire left wing of the NG!

-W

"Bob D." wrote in message
news:sailbad_d_sinner-

(paraphrased)

Ya were sounding like a reasonable guy, until that last left-handed
comment.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring
 

I don't know much about the pacific, but I would have thought the fetch and
the prevailing winds would have made the pacific rougher than the atlantic.
Why isn't that true?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dionysus Feldman wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat
of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand
name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

df--

While Catalina Island is only 26nm from the coast of California, I
suggest you look at the number of Bayliner's moored there.

I believe it's been "tried".


I suppose I should qualify my remarks, because there are substantial
differences between the sea state of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans
most of the time.

Typically, the Atlantic is a far tougher body of water to boat and fish
in than the Pacific, along most of the United States coastal areas and,
on the Atlantic, out to where the Gulf Stream is (north of Florida, of
course).

Despite the substantial number of Bayliner sales, you rarely see any out
in the Atlantic, outside of sight of shore, and, in fact, I rarely see
any out in the Atlantic, close to shore. A Bayliner sighting in the
Atlantic was an unusual occurence off the shores of NE Florida, where I
spent hundreds and hundreds of hours boating and fishing.


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

+500 miles along the SE Atlantic coast with boating weather Damn near
365 days a year. When do you Buckeyes start putting your boats into
"hibernation" for the winter? Later this month or, is it already under
way? (BTW, 80F w/a 10kt N wind & scattered showers here tomorrow)

If it's a large area, do you mean to tell me you know EVERY charter
boat in
that area???

Find a six pack, offshore, charter that uses a Bayliner and prove me
wrong.

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. You pull a statement
completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong? Yeah,
Scott, I'll go jump on that.

Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns, etc... Specifically are there any
other Brands that are absent? If so does that mean those boats are
inferior too? If so how come no one in this miserable group takes the
time to point a finger in those boats' direction? Why? My guess, it's
because a few people in this group are wannabe boating elitest, with
little real knowledge on any given boats capabilities (except hopefiully
their own), so they pick an easy target.

Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models, along
previous unsubstainted ramblings for other ignorant elitest, conspire to
make Bayline an easy target for people who have this childish need to
pooh pooh a boat that is not their brand but are too intellectually lazy
to put together a reasonable argument. Rather than qualify their
remarks, they simply dribble "Bayliner baaaad", because that brand has
least chance of being disputed, perpetuating ignorance, and setting up
the brand name for future attack.



And even if you do, does this directly means that all Bayliners are
crap???

No, what it "means" is that Bayliners are totally absent amoung
experienced Captains who rely upon their boat for a living.

Don't you wonder why not a single one of these captains have selected
such a "popular" brand of boat to rely upon?


Okay, I'll bite. "I wonder why Bayliners are not popular among this
small contingent of boaters". What's you response "'cuz dey suk!"?
Flawless logic indeed. Why don't you just tell me specifically what you
are trying to convey?

Also can we please try to argue with facts instead of implying something
from a small groupof people? Seriously, I can take a group of perch
fishermen or walleys fishermen on Lake Erie have a sample of more than
170 Boats, just like the referenced website, and have few if any Boston
Whalers present in that sample. What does than mean? Nothing.



Also doe this lacking of Bayliners (specifically Trophys) mean the boat
is
not suitable for the hardcore offshore and inshore fishing, but a 14
foot
aluminium bass boat is?

There were a couple of pictures of "14' aluminium bass boats" which is
more than we can say about Bayliner, isn't it?

Astonishing, given Bayliner's "popularity", don't you think?


So once again you imply a 14 aluminium boat is better equipped for than
a closed bow bayliner Trophy????? Really???? Isn't your ass getting a
little sore from pulling out all those comments?




Some of us, however, are a bit more demanding.

Whoa there.... Scott. Ya started off kinda jerky, but then were
sounding
like a pretty reasonable guy, until that last left-handed comment.

I endeavor to be a jerk all of the time but as you can see, nobody's
perfect.

Keep it up, you getting closer I think you're getting to your goal.

Contrary to what many elitest believe, the boat don't make the skipper.
I've been out in a 16' Bayliner in 6-8's in Lake Erie (And let me tell
you, those are NOT ocean swells).

Wave interval is a much more important factor, right?


Yes it is. And Lake Erie's shallow dept increase the frequency.

Tell you what, tough guy, bring a 16' Bayliner to Ponce or Sebastian
when a strong onshore wind is opposing an outgoing tide and go out
past the formidable "standing men" that form in either inlet. I'll
watch from my Whaler, ready for the inevitable rescue attempt. If you
make it, I'll be so impressed I promise to quit ragging on Bayliners
right here and now.

A final word of advice:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"
--
SJM

Uh.. Yeah, Scott... Once agin I'll jump right on it and am leaving
right now because I really need yto show you.

I have no problems taking your word on your local boating conditions. I
won't presume I can take a 16 foot Bayliner or ANY BOAT into waters that
I have absolutely no experience with. If your comment is that my
boating environment is not demanding, and that is the reason, I am
happy with Bayliners, then it is you who need to take my word that I
have been in Bayliners in demanding conditions, or come up her and see
for yourself. Better yet go to www.boatnerd.com and look for
information on Lake Erie.

I try to be a reasonable person in my original assertion that not all
Bayliners are crappy. I've never asserted that any Bayliner can be
taken anywhere, competing with any other boat in any category.

I don't make absolute statements about a five hundred mile coastline one
cannot possibly be 100% familiar with, then tell people who aren't even
local to the area to "prove me wrong". I don't take a small sample of
people and say there are no Bayliners present so "what does that tell
you", to infer Bayliners are inferior.

What I do assert is that in MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE the Bayliners I have
owned and been and other Brands I have owned and been on, is that
Bayliners seem just as capable in rough boating conditions as a
comparable Wellcraft, Larson, Chris-Craft, Four Winns, etc... This
means that not all Bayliners can be dismissed as crap, and people who
feel the need to single out and dismiss all Bayliners, are behaving in
an ignorant manner.

If you feel the need to keep ragging on all Bayliners, becuase I am
unwilling to drive thousands of miles to prove it to you, well the have
fun with pounding your chest chanting "Bayliner baaaad. My boat
gooood." with Harry, and the lemmings in the Our Gang He Man Bayliner
Hater's Club.


Bob Dimond

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

BOB wrote:

+500 miles along the SE Atlantic coast with boating weather Damn near
365 days a year. When do you Buckeyes start putting your boats into
"hibernation" for the winter? Later this month or, is it already under
way? (BTW, 80F w/a 10kt N wind & scattered showers here tomorrow)

If it's a large area, do you mean to tell me you know EVERY charter
boat in
that area???

Find a six pack, offshore, charter that uses a Bayliner and prove me
wrong.

Oh I see... in a +500 mile strech of coatline you *know* that no one
uses a Bayliner for any Commerical applications. You pull a statement
completely out of you ass and it's up to me to prove it wrong? Yeah,
Scott, I'll go jump on that.

There was one six pack captain operating out of the area between St.
Mary's, Georgia, and St. Augustine, Florida, who ran a Bayliner Trophy
center console for inshore ocean fishing and on the ICW. He was the only
one I ever encountered in more than five years of fishing those waters
several times a week.

The most popular ICW boats for charter captains were Carolina Skiffs.

Outside the inlets, Whalers, Gradys, Contenders, Makos (lotsa older
Makos) and a dozen other brands were common among the hired captains. No
Tropnies.


Just for argument, how many of those captains use Chris-Crafts, Jerseys,
Larsons, Wellcrafts, Four Winns,

Chris Craft, Larson and Four Winns aren't in the salt water fishing boat
builder category. Bayliner is. Lotsa Wellcrafts were about, especially
the older 20 footers.



Possible past Bayliner quality control problems, cheaper price, cheaper
fit and finish, and lower power offerings of the base models, along
previous unsubstainted ramblings for other ignorant elitest, conspire to
make Bayline an easy target for people who have this childish need to
pooh pooh a boat that is not their brand but are too intellectually lazy
to put together a reasonable argument

There you go. You have your own list of Bayliner shortcomings.





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New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

In article ,
wrote:

Bob, with all due respect, you're sounding almost as religious and
fanatical as the anti-Bayliner faction.


I think I see your point, but I don't agree with it. Wayne, if you've
been reading my posts, I don't mind people not liking the brand,
I've never made any inference, or assertion saying how wonerful
Bayliners are. I've simply used personal experience to counter the same
unsubstanciated "all bayliners are crap" comments that the same few
people keep tossing out without any solicitation, or provocation. It's
rude, it belittles fellow boaters in this group, and I'm sick of it.

So how does that make me a zealot? Because I won't go contrary to my
actual experiences and and agree with those who make outragously broad
claims that all Bayliners are inferior, based on little or no experiece?


The facts are that you're
happy with you're Bayliner and it serves you're purposes and the type
of boating you like to do. That's wonderful. I've never owned one
but there is clearly a place for them in the market. It's also a
general truism however that most Bayliners have no business offshore,
especially in salt water. They weren't made for it, and it's not
really debatable except among fanatics or the uninformed.


Why Wayne, is this statement a truism? Why is the 2160 Trophy I've
owned with a deep vee hull and closed cooled system, not suitable for
salt water? While nobody points this out for lets say a Wellcraft with
a mercruiser raw water cooling system? I've never put a Bayliner in
salt water, so I'm not disputing what you say, just looking for the
information supporting the statement.

But that's my problem, Wayne. Too many people spout these negative
"truisms" without any substanciation, and almost exclusively at
Bayliner.

If someone said "I think Bayliners are bad for salt water use because
they do not use stainless steel fittings" I could not only accept the
statement, but learn something from it. But when some old windbag
answers a legitimate question to someone who asks "I just bought a new
bayliner, what other equipment sdo I need" with "A new boat.", than it
does a disservice to bayliner owners as well as the rec.boats community
as a whole. This type of behavior is unfair, it is irresponsible, and
it is bad taste.


Bob Dimond

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Yeah Harry. Typical. Only bayliner uses an I/O, Radar Arch, and "RV
decorated interior" on a 28 foot boat.

It's typical alright. Typical Harry Krause.




Bayliner has a 28' cruiser, the 288 model, that isn't a bad-looking
boat, and, in fact, I took a look at one a couple of years ago.
But...typical of Bayliner, it had some serious shortcomings, starting
with a much-too-small fuel tank and an I/O drive instead of an inboard
or at least a vee-drive. And the interior was decorated like an RV.
Without the idiotic radar arch, though, it is an attractive, traditional
cruiser, suitable for the Bay or the ICW. But it is a bit overpriced for
what it is.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Wally, your right. I think it's just cabin fever as I haven't taken my
boat out for three weeks!

With the NWS predicting rainy weather all day saturday and sunday, I
didn't make plans except to go out on sandusky bay with my friends M26
sailboat on saturday. Talk about lively sailing! Wanted to go to PIB
or Kellys but the dog was at home and, and even if my girlfriend could
get in to pick her up, she wouldn't have gotten to Sandusky until
6;30pm. A littel late for making a fall trip, even if it's just to
Kellys. So I checked the Chris and the Trophy, and went home.

Where are you on Huron? I typically overnight 2-3 times a year at the
HBB, especially during their outdoor concerts! If you looking for a
nice trip, but don't want to go to PIB or Kellys, try the Lyman Harbor
Marina. They also have concerts in the summer, and now allow
overnighting.

If you're ever at Kellys, PIB, or the Basin, and you see a guy with a
Norwegian Elkhound, it's probably me. Stop by and say hey!


On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:33:24 -0400, (Bob
D.) wrote:

I am BY NO MEANS the most experienced boater out there, nor do I profess
to be. I do feel I have a *pretty good* handle on things within this
realm. This make me your worst nightmare, Mr Krause, as I usually know
when someone is talking out their ass, and passing it off as knowledge.

Hope this helps,

Bob Dimond

Bob, settle down. Why the hell do you care about one bitter, half-baked
quasi-boater's opinion?

Who cares? Enjoy your Bayliner.
Send him a picture of the Lorain light and maybe you can be his web
friend if it means that much to you.

If it's your boat, it floats and you like it, it's a good boat.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I make no such inference.



I stand behind my opinion of your actions to date. If infereernce is
improper, I'll be glad to use the term imply


I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been
here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other
brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration.
If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the
ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.

I've criticized any number of boat brands for any number of reasons.


Two things about you last statement seem false. One, you've criticized
another brand of boat. Two, you gave reasons.

:^)

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Wayne.B wrote in message . ..

On 4 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700, (Scott McFadden)
wrote:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"

========================================

It's kind of fun to fly down east coast on a clear day in the fall.

You can sometimes see the inlets breaking from 35,000 feet up.

Alot more fun than trying to get through one.

Here is a shot of Mantanzas (S of St Aug) with +6' breakers guarding
the mouth.

http://www.co.st-johns.fl.us/bcc/pub...ages/inlet.jpg

Mantanzas means "massarce" in Spanish and that might happen to you to
if you're dumb enough mess with her on a bad day.
--
SJM

Anectdotal Evidence for Harry...
 

I don't think your old Bayliner is better, nor would I head out in six
to eight foot waves in my 36' boat, and it is built to take that kind of
stuff. What I think is that you are no brighter than another Bayliner
owner who used to post here and who claimed he took on 30' waves in his
22' Bayliner

Harry, are you that dense to banter back and forth for so long, yet miss
the point of this entire argument? You repeatedly have implied or
directly said that all Bayliners are crap. (You can dispute the
implication all you want, but anyone who will do a google search with
the keywords "Harry Krause Bayliner Wellcraft Chris-Craft Sea Ray" will
have far more negative comments than positive comments, with the vast
majority of those comments directed at Bayliner, affirming you bigoted
actions) I have repeatedly told you I take exception to these comments
you and others so quickly hand out as a mattter of fact.

Anyone with a third grade reading comprehension, would have seen that
I've NEVER argued nor implied that Baylinere are better. I'm not
even saying that Bayliners are as good as any other boat.

My unwavering point is how can ALL bayliners be so bad as to be
deserving of your, and others negative comments, above any other brand?

It is understandable if someone asks what "boat will handle a x
circumstance", merits the reply: "If your taking a boat out in those
circumstances, don't get a Bayliner because (state specific reason)." Of
course this is provided Bayliner tend the only boat with that
shortcomming under those circumstances.

However, you Mr. Krause, among others, are more inclined to answer a
question like "I just bought a new Bayliner besides the mandated USCG
equipment, what other stuff should i get" The most common reply would
be something along the lines of: "A new boat.", a smart ass comment
based solely on the word Bayliner. Not your words per se, but your
general behavior to be sure.

The repeated and unprovoked bashing of the Bayliner name, by yourself
and others, whenever it comes up in this group implies that all Bayliner
are crap no matter what environment there in and no mattter what boat
they are compared to. This begs the question: How can these
Bayliner implications be true if I and others have been able to
repeatedly depended on our Bayliners in rough conditions, refutting them?

I not asking you to change you mind, Harry. I'm simply asking you and
others to open you mind, and take these experiences, which run
contrary to you opinions and experiences into consideration before
dismissing the Bayliner brand is such absolute terms. Bayliners are
not as bad and hated as you make them out to be, no matter how bad you
think they are or how much you dislike them.

Last, if we accept the implication of your statement that I'm a dim
wit, what does the fact that you continously throw negative and
unsubstanciated comments out as fact say about you? What does it say
about you when you have to change the subject, and argue pointless
minutia by taking one sentence out of context within the entire
argument, missing the point of the entire argument with someone you
imply is your subordinate?

I think I need to follow some good advice, end this thread, and get on
with my life. Feel free to take the last word, and live in the delusion
of your absolutism.

Take Care,

Bob Dimond

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

BOB wrote:

Yeah Harry. Typical. Only bayliner uses an I/O, Radar Arch, and "RV
decorated interior" on a 28 foot boat.

It's typical alright. Typical Harry Krause.




Bayliner has a 28' cruiser, the 288 model, that isn't a bad-looking
boat, and, in fact, I took a look at one a couple of years ago.
But...typical of Bayliner, it had some serious shortcomings, starting
with a much-too-small fuel tank and an I/O drive instead of an inboard
or at least a vee-drive. And the interior was decorated like an RV.
Without the idiotic radar arch, though, it is an attractive, traditional
cruiser, suitable for the Bay or the ICW. But it is a bit overpriced for
what it is.


Well, Bob, I use my criteria in selection boats, not yours. I don't like
I/O drives, especially in salt water environments; I don't like ugly
radar arches, and I don't like boats decorated so that they look like
RVs. I also like believe a 28' boat should have a larger fuel tank than
what Bayliner offers on that model.

Obviously, your tastes are different.





--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

BOB wrote:



While I don't know enough about boat brands models, on a boat by boat
basis, I'd agree, there are lots of crappy boats. However you *do*
infer that Bayliner is the only crappy boat by your actions.

I make no such inference.



I stand behind my opinion of your actions to date. If infereernce is
improper, I'll be glad to use the term imply

Sorry, but I've never implied Bayliners were the only crappy boats.



I've have not been in rec.boats since its inception, but I have been
here
awhile. I have yet to see a smart ass comment directed at any other
brand
of boat, otherwise I would give your statements better consideration.
If
you think Bayliner is not alone in building a poor boat, then that the
ONE
thing you managed to keep to yourself, since I've been reading.

I've criticized any number of boat brands for any number of reasons.


Two things about you last statement seem false. One, you've criticized
another brand of boat. Two, you gave reasons.

:^)

Well, it appears you have no more knowledge of posts in rec.boats than
you do about of safe boating.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Scott McFadden wrote:

Wayne.B wrote in message . ..

On 4 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700, (Scott McFadden)
wrote:

"Let me tell you, those are NOT ocean swells"

========================================

It's kind of fun to fly down east coast on a clear day in the fall.

You can sometimes see the inlets breaking from 35,000 feet up.

Alot more fun than trying to get through one.

Here is a shot of Mantanzas (S of St Aug) with +6' breakers guarding
the mouth.

http://www.co.st-johns.fl.us/bcc/pub...ages/inlet.jpg

Mantanzas means "massarce" in Spanish and that might happen to you to
if you're dumb enough mess with her on a bad day.
--
SJM


My favorite inlet - really. Used to run it at least once a week, just
for the joy of it, and because the fishing right at the bridge - on both
sides - is usually damned good. I've caught tarpon right there...



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Anectdotal Evidence for Harry...
 

BOB wrote:


I don't think your old Bayliner is better, nor would I head out in six
to eight foot waves in my 36' boat, and it is built to take that kind of
stuff. What I think is that you are no brighter than another Bayliner
owner who used to post here and who claimed he took on 30' waves in his
22' Bayliner

Harry, are you that dense to banter back and forth for so long, yet miss
the point of this entire argument? You repeatedly have implied or
directly said that all Bayliners are crap.

No, I have not. I don't recall ever saying or implying that. I think
Bayliners are perfectly suitable for protected waters, such as, for
example, Chesapeake Bay, where I do a lot of boating. But I wouldn't go
out in the ocean out of sight of shore in one, nor would I run any of my
favorite (and by that I mean treacherous) ocean inlets in a Bayliner,
any Bayliner.


(You can dispute the
implication all you want, but anyone who will do a google search with
the keywords "Harry Krause Bayliner Wellcraft Chris-Craft Sea Ray" will
have far more negative comments than positive comments, with the vast
majority of those comments directed at Bayliner, affirming you bigoted
actions)

Which means squat, Bob. Really.


I have repeatedly told you I take exception to these comments
you and others so quickly hand out as a mattter of fact.

Take all the exception you want, Bob. Makes no difference to me.


However, you Mr. Krause, among others, are more inclined to answer a
question like "I just bought a new Bayliner besides the mandated USCG
equipment, what other stuff should i get" The most common reply would
be something along the lines of: "A new boat.", a smart ass comment
based solely on the word Bayliner. Not your words per se, but your
general behavior to be sure.


Hey, Bob...you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how far from
reality it is. Go for it, eh?


The repeated and unprovoked bashing of the Bayliner name, by yourself
and others, whenever it comes up in this group implies that all Bayliner
are crap no matter what environment there in and no mattter what boat
they are compared to. This begs the question: How can these
Bayliner implications be true if I and others have been able to
repeatedly depended on our Bayliners in rough conditions, refutting them?

You've disputed, Bob; you haven't refuted. Look up the words.

What does it say
about you when you have to change the subject, and argue pointless
minutia by taking one sentence out of context within the entire
argument, missing the point of the entire argument with someone you
imply is your subordinate?


Beauty is in the details, Bob, no matter how minute.



I think I need to follow some good advice, end this thread, and get on
with my life. Feel free to take the last word, and live in the delusion
of your absolutism.


I'd be glad to grant you absolution, Bob, but I can't find my robe.




* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

New one on me - Laminate Flooring (Long, of course)
 

Sorry, just one more.

Hey Spanky " I'm impartial, and don't just categorically hate Bayliners"
Krause:

Where or how in my four sentences, did I refute your selection criteria?

What I did do was point out what runs contrary to what you've repeatedly
try to tell me, that is, to quote you directly:

"I've never implied Bayliners were the only crappy boats."

You've just proven my point about your unfounded bigotry. Brands A-Z
CAN, AND DO the same thing the same way. Radar Arch, Gas Tank,
Interior, and I/O. The shortcommings you address as:

"typical of Bayliner

are in fact typical in the entire marine industry. But only Bayliner
gets maligned by you.

No only do you miss the point in trying to comprehend my posts. It's
obvious you don't even comprehend what YOU POST.

If you did, you would not dispute what I've been saying ALL THIS TIME
that you unfairly single out bayliners, for you derrogatory comments.

(shaking his head) WOW...





BOB wrote:

Yeah Harry. Typical. Only bayliner uses an I/O, Radar Arch, and "RV
decorated interior" on a 28 foot boat.

It's typical alright. Typical Harry Krause.




Bayliner has a 28' cruiser, the 288 model, that isn't a bad-looking
boat, and, in fact, I took a look at one a couple of years ago.
But...typical of Bayliner, it had some serious shortcomings, starting
with a much-too-small fuel tank and an I/O drive instead of an
inboard
or at least a vee-drive. And the interior was decorated like an RV.
Without the idiotic radar arch, though, it is an attractive,
traditional
cruiser, suitable for the Bay or the ICW. But it is a bit overpriced
for
what it is.


Well, Bob, I use my criteria in selection boats, not yours. I don't like
I/O drives, especially in salt water environments; I don't like ugly
radar arches, and I don't like boats decorated so that they look like
RVs. I also like believe a 28' boat should have a larger fuel tank than
what Bayliner offers on that model.

Obviously, your tastes are different.