Hi Steve:

First would like to say a quick thanks for taking all the time to answer
my questions in such detail about paddle length and footwear. Really
appreciate it.

I've "done" the Allagash twice, and can't recall a trip of any sort
that I've enjoyed more. But, this was several years ago, and am hoping
I can do the St John without any problems; a bit older now.

One thing I learned on the two previous trips how important the right
equipment is, hence my questions re footwear.

The Allagash trips were in the middle of
the summer, and footwear in the canoe wasn't much of a concern.

Looked at the Chota boots, and the NRS offering, per our suggestions.

Am uncertain over the neoprene descriptions, whether it's allows for a
wet or dry boot (porous, or not) ?

a. When they say neoprene uppers (or lowers), is the neoprene in this case
waterproof ?

I'm confused on this point, as I guess I keep getting back to a skin divers
neoprene, which is of course totally porous, and relies on body heat to warm
the thin water layer that ends up
next to the skin.

b. My No. 1 Question: Which makes more sense for me in a cold water
environment:
boots that are totally waterproof (with I presume wool sock underneath), or
the skin divers
wet neoprene approach ?

c. The Chota boot descr. says: "The lower boot is constructed with 3mm
waterproof closed cell neoprene, lined with fleece for added comfort and
warmth"

Is this a wet or dry boot ?

d. The NRS Paddle Wetshoe: is this a wet or dry boot ?
(can't tell from their description)

Much thanks again for all the help.

Best regards,
Bob Rose
--------------------
My other question concerns what to use for footwear. In the early spring
in
Maine, the water will undoubtedly be "quite" cold, and of course the
bottom
of the canoe will be wet. Probably way too cold to be comfortable in
Teva's
or tong type open sandles.

Chota mukluks or NRS River boots. The more expensive ones have stiffer
soles.

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
. . .
b. My No. 1 Question: Which makes more sense for me in a cold water
environment:
boots that are totally waterproof (with I presume wool sock underneath),
or the skin divers wet neoprene approach ?

The answer is that there is no answer.

If I have (rare) certainty that I'm not going to swim or step into a hole
while managing or tracking the boat, I'll wear rubber boots and wool socks.
As a practical matter this usually only happens on day trips in the sun.

I use NRS wet boots (with thickness to match the season and latitude) the
rest of the time and deal with the discomfort. I haven't tried zoomy
products like GoreTex socks, but I don't have high hopes for them. Having
comfortable, insulated rubber camp boots helps a lot.

I've found that when I swim, I like to have as few distractions as possible,
and rubber boots filled with water can be avoided at the outset. Besides,
once they're wet, rubber boots become a consuming days-long task to dry.

Hth,
Fred Klingener

"Fred Klingener" wrote in message
...
"Robert11" wrote in message
...
. . .
b. My No. 1 Question: Which makes more sense for me in a cold water
environment:
boots that are totally waterproof (with I presume wool sock underneath),
or the skin divers wet neoprene approach ?

The answer is that there is no answer.

If I have (rare) certainty that I'm not going to swim or step into a hole
while managing or tracking the boat, I'll wear rubber boots and wool
socks.
As a practical matter this usually only happens on day trips in the sun.

I use NRS wet boots (with thickness to match the season and latitude) the
rest of the time and deal with the discomfort. I haven't tried zoomy
products like GoreTex socks, but I don't have high hopes for them. Having
comfortable, insulated rubber camp boots helps a lot.


....stuff deleted

Having cold feet isn't a life or death issue, for the most part, though it
is a comfort issue. I've found that I can walk barefoot (uncomfortably, I
might add) into water that has floating ice in it. Given my druthers, I'd
wear my diving booties in such conditions. I've used booties for kayaking,
but on a multi-day trip, this leads to rather negative foot conditions (at
least in my case). I don't like the rubber boots, though many seem to prefer
them. Neoprene socks are ok since they are more easily removed and dry
quicker than booties, but the same foot issues remain. Wool or polypro socks
under some type of shoe (cloth deck shoes, for example) are more
comfortable, for me, than most other options.

Rick

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
On 1-Feb-2004, "Robert11" wrote:

I'm confused on this point, as I guess I keep getting back to a skin
divers
neoprene, which is of course totally porous, and relies on body heat to
warm
the thin water layer that ends up
next to the skin.

Neoprene is not porous. It is a closed cell foam and is waterproof. If
you
want it to be porous, you poke holes in it. I've seen neoprene socks like
that _once_.

c. The Chota boot descr. says: "The lower boot is constructed with
3mm
waterproof closed cell neoprene, lined with fleece for added comfort and
warmth"

Is this a wet or dry boot ?

Neither. It is waterproof, but if the water goes over the top of the
boot,
some will get in. How much depends on how you've put it on. There is a
band of bare neoprene around the top and a strap that you can tighten.
If you tighten it against bare skin or a smooth fabric, it will only let
a trickle of water in. Otherwise, you could get a flood.

You do not want to paddle all day with wet feet, IMNSHO.

Mike

Neoprene booties work great while paddling. Feet get wet then stay warm all
day. The felt sole bottom model works very well on portages.
NRS has several styles to choose from.

"Michael Daly" wrote


Neoprene booties work great while paddling. Feet get wet then stay warm
all
day. The felt sole bottom model works very well on portages.
NRS has several styles to choose from.



The problem is that your feet are all white and waterlogged when you get off
river, and any callouses are gonna soften up and fall off. I always make a
judgement call: if the water is really cold and I intend to use all my
skills to stay in the boat (like late season canoe tripping), I'll often
wear some LLBean boots with warm socks inside, and keep my feet dry as much
as possible. That means really being active to keep the boat bailed and
sponged dry if water comes over the rail. If there is a chance I will dump
and swim (playboating in cold weather), or that I will be walking in water
(lining, shallow shorelines), I wear some scubadiver's booties with wool
socks underneath. The socks stay warm even when wet, so thats good all day.
My favorite pair were DeepSee brand, with an extended zipper along the side.
They also had firm soles.

If I swim with my LLBeans on, its no disaster, as they are well laced up.
However, it soaks them and the socks inside so that I have to dry them and
change socks. They are the most comfortable and land-friendly form of
footwear, but definately not for times you will have water in the boat.
OTOH, booties are a real compromise on land, and with the condition of your
feet after a few days.

--riverman

riverman wrote:

"Michael Daly" wrote


Neoprene booties work great while paddling. Feet get wet then stay warm

all

day. The felt sole bottom model works very well on portages.
NRS has several styles to choose from.



The problem is that your feet are all white and waterlogged when you get off
river, and any callouses are gonna soften up and fall off. I always make a
judgement call: if the water is really cold and I intend to use all my
skills to stay in the boat (like late season canoe tripping), I'll often
wear some LLBean boots with warm socks inside, and keep my feet dry as much
as possible. That means really being active to keep the boat bailed and
sponged dry if water comes over the rail. If there is a chance I will dump
and swim (playboating in cold weather), or that I will be walking in water
(lining, shallow shorelines), I wear some scubadiver's booties with wool
socks underneath. The socks stay warm even when wet, so thats good all day.
My favorite pair were DeepSee brand, with an extended zipper along the side.
They also had firm soles.

If I swim with my LLBeans on, its no disaster, as they are well laced up.
However, it soaks them and the socks inside so that I have to dry them and
change socks. They are the most comfortable and land-friendly form of
footwear, but definately not for times you will have water in the boat.
OTOH, booties are a real compromise on land, and with the condition of your
feet after a few days.

--riverman

I've had greet success on cold rivers with wool socks covered by "over the

calf " dry socks covered by wet boots. Feet are dry 99% of the
time(unless of course you flip)

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
On 2-Feb-2004, "MLL" wrote:

Feet get wet then stay warm all day.

Mmmm... warm trenchfoot...

Mike

Actually, no, not at all. Wear a pair of wool socks (change then as often as
you like) under the booties and change into sandals whenever you take a
break or camp. Your feet stay dry unless you get them soaked...just like any
other pair of footwear (unless they're absolutely watertight like a
drysuit). I've met others wearing the same footwear and the reaction is
always the same, positive, "isn't it amazing how comfy they are" exchange. I
didn't believe they would work either but after 25 years of "doing it" I
know they work. Essentially, if you have decent ankles, they function a lot
like moccasins. Just watch those dry, pine needled slopes!

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
On 1-Feb-2004, "Robert11" wrote:

I'm confused on this point, as I guess I keep getting back to a skin
divers
neoprene, which is of course totally porous, and relies on body heat to
warm
the thin water layer that ends up
next to the skin.

Neoprene is not porous. It is a closed cell foam and is waterproof. If
you
want it to be porous, you poke holes in it. I've seen neoprene socks like
that _once_.

Neoprene is neither closed cell or open cell by default. Neoprene is an
elastomeric compound used to make the material that products are made from.
Wether the material is open cell or closed cell depends on the manufacturing
process and the blowing agent used to create the cellular structure.


c. The Chota boot descr. says: "The lower boot is constructed with
3mm
waterproof closed cell neoprene, lined with fleece for added comfort and
warmth"

Is this a wet or dry boot ?

Neither. It is waterproof, but if the water goes over the top of the
boot,
some will get in. How much depends on how you've put it on. There is a
band of bare neoprene around the top and a strap that you can tighten.
If you tighten it against bare skin or a smooth fabric, it will only let
a trickle of water in. Otherwise, you could get a flood.

You do not want to paddle all day with wet feet, IMNSHO.

Mike

I wrote:

Wether the material is open cell or...

When I should have written "whether". A wether is some kind of baby animal,
I think, which is not what I was talking about.

Cheers!

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
On 1-Feb-2004, "Robert11" wrote:

I'm confused on this point, as I guess I keep getting back to a skin
divers
neoprene, which is of course totally porous, and relies on body heat to
warm
the thin water layer that ends up
next to the skin.

Neoprene is not porous. It is a closed cell foam and is waterproof. If
you
want it to be porous, you poke holes in it. I've seen neoprene socks like
that _once_.


I guess that my wetsuit is a drysuit, then. Strange how that cold water that
comes through the suit somehow.

Neoprene is porous, but it does not allow the water trapped in the material
to circulate. The air trapped in the foam and is warmed by the body, which
provides insulation. It also stops water from circulating around the body,
keeping fresh cold water from the body.

From the following website:

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:Yk3bpqVxWZwJ:www.tdc-dive.co.uk/Factsheets/TDC%2520Tip%25205%2520(Dry%2520Suits%2520-%2520Using%2520and%2520Choosing).pdf+%2Bneoprene+% 2B%22wet+suit%22+%2B%22thermal+properties%22&hl=en &ie=UTF-8

"Wet suits let water into the suit which forms a layer in between the suit
and the skin.
1. the neoprene that the suit is made of contains small bubbles of air which
trap
warmth in the suit. This can be affected by depth, as the suit compresses
with increasing depth and the thermal protection the suit offers can be
reduced
2. the water the suit lets in is trapped in the suit and the body warms the
water
up. It is important to get a well fitting wet suit to prevent the water
from
"flushing" in and out which then necessitates the body warming the water
over and over again, and during which time the diver gets cold."

Sounds porous to me. From personal experience, it feels it, too.

c. The Chota boot descr. says: "The lower boot is constructed with
3mm
waterproof closed cell neoprene, lined with fleece for added comfort and
warmth"

Is this a wet or dry boot ?

Neither. It is waterproof, but if the water goes over the top of the
boot,
some will get in. How much depends on how you've put it on. There is a
band of bare neoprene around the top and a strap that you can tighten.
If you tighten it against bare skin or a smooth fabric, it will only let
a trickle of water in. Otherwise, you could get a flood.


No, it isn't waterproof. Crushed neoprene, however, is (this process
eliminates the pores in the cells, making the suit a drysuit). Wetsuits, if
they are tight enough, allow very little water through, so your booties tend
to be pretty dry compared to, say, your torso. These booties probably have
been coated with something to make them waterproof. I have my doubts as to
how effective this would be since the constant flexing of the material will
quickly compromise any coating or protective barriers (neoprene creases very
easily, reducing the effectiveness of the material itself).

You do not want to paddle all day with wet feet, IMNSHO.

Then you don't want wetsuit/neoprene booties.

Rick