Rick wrote:

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...

On 1-Feb-2004, "Robert11" wrote:


I'm confused on this point, as I guess I keep getting back to a skin

divers

neoprene, which is of course totally porous, and relies on body heat to

warm

the thin water layer that ends up
next to the skin.

Neoprene is not porous. It is a closed cell foam and is waterproof. If

you

want it to be porous, you poke holes in it. I've seen neoprene socks like
that _once_.



I guess that my wetsuit is a drysuit, then. Strange how that cold water that
comes through the suit somehow.

Neoprene is porous, but it does not allow the water trapped in the material
to circulate. The air trapped in the foam and is warmed by the body, which
provides insulation. It also stops water from circulating around the body,
keeping fresh cold water from the body.

From the following website:

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:Yk3bpqVxWZwJ:www.tdc-dive.co.uk/Factsheets/TDC%2520Tip%25205%2520(Dry%2520Suits%2520-%2520Using%2520and%2520Choosing).pdf+%2Bneoprene+% 2B%22wet+suit%22+%2B%22thermal+properties%22&hl=en &ie=UTF-8

"Wet suits let water into the suit which forms a layer in between the suit
and the skin.
1. the neoprene that the suit is made of contains small bubbles of air which
trap
warmth in the suit. This can be affected by depth, as the suit compresses
with increasing depth and the thermal protection the suit offers can be
reduced
2. the water the suit lets in is trapped in the suit and the body warms the
water
up. It is important to get a well fitting wet suit to prevent the water
from
"flushing" in and out which then necessitates the body warming the water
over and over again, and during which time the diver gets cold."

Sounds porous to me. From personal experience, it feels it, too.

None of that says the neoprene material is porous - it just says that a
wetsuit isn't waterproof and given the lack of seals and a normal type of
zipper that's not at all surprising. I have both a neoprene wetsuit and a
pair of neoprene socks. Neither lets water through the material itself,
but both have some leakage at seams and the wetsuit leaks at the zipper.
Since they both lack seals they also let in water around my ankles (and
arms/neck for the farmer john).

The description above mentions air bubbles trapped in the material which
would be a characteristic of closed-cell, non-porous material.

From: "Michael Daly"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:52:50 GMT
Subject: To Steve: re Your paddle Length And Footwear Suggestions From
Previous Post

On 3-Feb-2004, "Rick" wrote:

I guess that my wetsuit is a drysuit, then. Strange how that cold water that
comes through the suit somehow.

Neoprene is porous, but it does not allow the water trapped in the material
to circulate. The air trapped in the foam and is warmed by the body, which
provides insulation. It also stops water from circulating around the body,
keeping fresh cold water from the body.

I paddle and I dive. I know what neoprene is and what it does. When diving,
the neoprene lets water in through the neck. sleeve and leg openings. The
water does not pass _through_ the neoprene.

Sounds porous to me.

The passage you quoted said nothing about the neoprene being porous. It said
that it holds water inside it without mentioning how it got there. Porous
means
that it allows water to pass _through_ it. Neoprene is air entrained, not
porous.


It is waterproof,

No, it isn't waterproof. Crushed neoprene, however, is (this process
eliminates the pores in the cells, making the suit a drysuit). Wetsuits, if
they are tight enough, allow very little water through, so your booties tend

You're telling me that the boots I own and wear, made of neoprene, are _not_
waterproof even though I wear them standing in water for any arbitrary length
of time without getting wet at all? They are _not_ crushed neoprene. They
are not coated with anything magic. They are not tight. But they are
waterproof.

IMHE, Neoprene is waterproof unless it is not made correctly.

Herein lies the problem. You base your statements on what you have seen and
then generalize that ALL neoprene is closed cell. Maybe all of the paddling
and scuba related equipment does all use closed cell neoprene but the
statement that open cell neoprene doesn't exist or is a result of faulty
manufacturing is simply wrong.

Do a google search for open cell neoprene. Then do one for free diving wet
suits.

Initial comments about open cell vs. closed cell were not meant to imply
that paddling gear was made with open cell neoprene. I was merely pointing
out the fallacy of the statement that ALL neoprene is waterproof closed cell
neoprene.

"Dave Van" wrote in message
...


From: "Michael Daly"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:52:50 GMT
Subject: To Steve: re Your paddle Length And Footwear Suggestions
From
Previous Post

On 3-Feb-2004, "Rick" wrote:

I guess that my wetsuit is a drysuit, then. Strange how that cold water
that
comes through the suit somehow.

Neoprene is porous, but it does not allow the water trapped in the
material
to circulate. The air trapped in the foam and is warmed by the body,
which
provides insulation. It also stops water from circulating around the
body,
keeping fresh cold water from the body.

I paddle and I dive. I know what neoprene is and what it does. When
diving,
the neoprene lets water in through the neck. sleeve and leg openings.
The
water does not pass _through_ the neoprene.

Sounds porous to me.

The passage you quoted said nothing about the neoprene being porous. It
said
that it holds water inside it without mentioning how it got there.
Porous
means
that it allows water to pass _through_ it. Neoprene is air entrained,
not
porous.


It is waterproof,

No, it isn't waterproof. Crushed neoprene, however, is (this process
eliminates the pores in the cells, making the suit a drysuit).
Wetsuits, if
they are tight enough, allow very little water through, so your booties
tend

You're telling me that the boots I own and wear, made of neoprene, are
_not_
waterproof even though I wear them standing in water for any arbitrary
length
of time without getting wet at all? They are _not_ crushed neoprene.
They
are not coated with anything magic. They are not tight. But they are
waterproof.

IMHE, Neoprene is waterproof unless it is not made correctly.

Herein lies the problem. You base your statements on what you have seen
and
then generalize that ALL neoprene is closed cell. Maybe all of the
paddling
and scuba related equipment does all use closed cell neoprene but the
statement that open cell neoprene doesn't exist or is a result of faulty
manufacturing is simply wrong.

Do a google search for open cell neoprene. Then do one for free diving wet
suits.

Initial comments about open cell vs. closed cell were not meant to imply
that paddling gear was made with open cell neoprene. I was merely
pointing
out the fallacy of the statement that ALL neoprene is waterproof closed
cell
neoprene.



"An Open Cell wetsuit that fits well can keep the diver almost entirely
dry!"
http://www.nmd.net/freedive/pages/equipments.html
Comments?

"MLL" wrote in message
. ..

"Dave Van" wrote in message
...


From: "Michael Daly"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:52:50 GMT
Subject: To Steve: re Your paddle Length And Footwear Suggestions
From
Previous Post

On 3-Feb-2004, "Rick" wrote:

I guess that my wetsuit is a drysuit, then. Strange how that cold
water
that
comes through the suit somehow.

Neoprene is porous, but it does not allow the water trapped in the
material
to circulate. The air trapped in the foam and is warmed by the body,
which
provides insulation. It also stops water from circulating around the
body,
keeping fresh cold water from the body.

I paddle and I dive. I know what neoprene is and what it does. When
diving,
the neoprene lets water in through the neck. sleeve and leg openings.
The
water does not pass _through_ the neoprene.

Sounds porous to me.

The passage you quoted said nothing about the neoprene being porous.
It
said
that it holds water inside it without mentioning how it got there.
Porous
means
that it allows water to pass _through_ it. Neoprene is air entrained,
not
porous.


It is waterproof,

No, it isn't waterproof. Crushed neoprene, however, is (this process
eliminates the pores in the cells, making the suit a drysuit).
Wetsuits, if
they are tight enough, allow very little water through, so your
booties
tend

You're telling me that the boots I own and wear, made of neoprene, are
_not_
waterproof even though I wear them standing in water for any arbitrary
length
of time without getting wet at all? They are _not_ crushed neoprene.
They
are not coated with anything magic. They are not tight. But they are
waterproof.

IMHE, Neoprene is waterproof unless it is not made correctly.

Herein lies the problem. You base your statements on what you have seen
and
then generalize that ALL neoprene is closed cell. Maybe all of the
paddling
and scuba related equipment does all use closed cell neoprene but the
statement that open cell neoprene doesn't exist or is a result of faulty
manufacturing is simply wrong.

Do a google search for open cell neoprene. Then do one for free diving
wet
suits.

Initial comments about open cell vs. closed cell were not meant to imply
that paddling gear was made with open cell neoprene. I was merely
pointing
out the fallacy of the statement that ALL neoprene is waterproof closed
cell
neoprene.



"An Open Cell wetsuit that fits well can keep the diver almost entirely
dry!"
http://www.nmd.net/freedive/pages/equipments.html
Comments?


Oh, for pete's sake, let's drop it.

My comments were merely to point out the open cell neoprene exists. I'm
right, it does. Michael's comments point out that, as far as anyone can
tell, only closed cell neoprene is used to fabricate paddling and SCUBA
gear, most notably boots and socks. He's right, it is.

Peace.

DV

"Dave Van" wrote in message
link.net...

"MLL" wrote in message
. ..

"Dave Van" wrote in message
...


From: "Michael Daly"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:52:50 GMT
Subject: To Steve: re Your paddle Length And Footwear
Suggestions
From
Previous Post

On 3-Feb-2004, "Rick" wrote:

I guess that my wetsuit is a drysuit, then. Strange how that cold
water
that
comes through the suit somehow.

Neoprene is porous, but it does not allow the water trapped in the
material
to circulate. The air trapped in the foam and is warmed by the
body,
which
provides insulation. It also stops water from circulating around
the
body,
keeping fresh cold water from the body.

I paddle and I dive. I know what neoprene is and what it does.
When
diving,
the neoprene lets water in through the neck. sleeve and leg
openings.
The
water does not pass _through_ the neoprene.

Sounds porous to me.

The passage you quoted said nothing about the neoprene being porous.
It
said
that it holds water inside it without mentioning how it got there.
Porous
means
that it allows water to pass _through_ it. Neoprene is air
entrained,
not
porous.


It is waterproof,

No, it isn't waterproof. Crushed neoprene, however, is (this
process
eliminates the pores in the cells, making the suit a drysuit).
Wetsuits, if
they are tight enough, allow very little water through, so your
booties
tend

You're telling me that the boots I own and wear, made of neoprene,
are
_not_
waterproof even though I wear them standing in water for any
arbitrary
length
of time without getting wet at all? They are _not_ crushed
neoprene.
They
are not coated with anything magic. They are not tight. But they
are
waterproof.

IMHE, Neoprene is waterproof unless it is not made correctly.

Herein lies the problem. You base your statements on what you have
seen
and
then generalize that ALL neoprene is closed cell. Maybe all of the
paddling
and scuba related equipment does all use closed cell neoprene but the
statement that open cell neoprene doesn't exist or is a result of
faulty
manufacturing is simply wrong.

Do a google search for open cell neoprene. Then do one for free diving
wet
suits.

Initial comments about open cell vs. closed cell were not meant to
imply
that paddling gear was made with open cell neoprene. I was merely
pointing
out the fallacy of the statement that ALL neoprene is waterproof
closed
cell
neoprene.



"An Open Cell wetsuit that fits well can keep the diver almost entirely
dry!"
http://www.nmd.net/freedive/pages/equipments.html
Comments?


Oh, for pete's sake, let's drop it.

My comments were merely to point out the open cell neoprene exists. I'm
right, it does. Michael's comments point out that, as far as anyone can
tell, only closed cell neoprene is used to fabricate paddling and SCUBA
gear, most notably boots and socks. He's right, it is.

Peace.

DV



It was an interesting discussion, so please don't be so sensitive. The open
cell is used on the inside of some suits and it's very prone to damage. I
learned this fact long ago, but I was never aware of exactly why. Now I
know.
Pace

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
On 4-Feb-2004, Dave Van wrote:

IMHE, Neoprene is waterproof unless it is not made correctly.

Herein lies the problem. You base your statements on what you have seen
and
then generalize that ALL neoprene is closed cell. Maybe all of the
paddling
and scuba related equipment does all use closed cell neoprene but the
statement that open cell neoprene doesn't exist or is a result of faulty
manufacturing is simply wrong.

Mea culpa. I should be more specific. However, in the context of most of
our discussion, the neoprene is closed cell. Open cell is not as common.
The only open cell neoprene I've seen and touched has been in mouse pads.

Let me put it this way: Closed cell neoprene that isn't waterproof is not
made correctly. Sometimes you don't care (zippers and seams on paddling
FJ), sometimes you force the issue (lotta sliced holes in neoprene
paddling socks).

Do a google search for open cell neoprene. Then do one for free diving
wet
suits.

Free-dive = neutral bouyancy if possible, hence the open cell.

Mike

yep