On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

a stirrup is just another tool.

Which indicates there is a more serious problem.

Mike

"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 25-Oct-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

nothing wrong with a bigger more stable kayak. or with anti-capsize aids
like sponsons

And we've told you countless times that a boat that's more stable
in calm water is less stable in rough water - when you're more likely
to go over. But you _still_ don't get it!

sorry, son, when it comes to hydrodynamic stability bigger IS better.
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"Michael Daly" writes:

On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

a stirrup is just another tool.

Which indicates there is a more serious problem.

So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST
ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"?

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Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

"Mary Malmros" wrote in message
...
"Michael Daly" writes:

On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

a stirrup is just another tool.

Which indicates there is a more serious problem.

So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST
ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"?


And what might that "more serious problem" be, exactly?

Given the variance in ability of all paddlers, there are probably a few
people out there that can deploy and and execute a paddle float re-entry
with a stirrup more quickly than many folks can with just the paddle float.

"Mary Malmros" wrote in message
...
"Michael Daly" writes:

On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

a stirrup is just another tool.

Which indicates there is a more serious problem.

So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST
ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"?

Well, Mary,

In the world of Watt, an outrigger is not a sponson and thus, cannot add
stability to a hull. Look it up in the Journal Of Irreproduceable Results.
It is the chapter just after the one on cold fusion.

Rick

On 26-Oct-2003, "Dave Van" wrote:

And what might that "more serious problem" be, exactly?

Try reading the whoel thread - already addressed.

Mike

On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST
ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"?

Getting into a kayak without a stirrup is easy.
Getting in without a stability aid is harder.

I don't use either. I roll. Kayaking isn't about relying on tools,
it's about skill.

Since it is easy to get into a kayak without a stirrup, then
clearly not being able to do that should tell you something
about the paddler in question. It's an obvious cutoff - this
person can't reasonably handle a kayak if they can't do something
that's easy. They need to get into shape, add strength, whatever
to be able to meet the demands of such a simple task. If they
can't, hand them a beer and the remote and tell them to get
their kayak thrills vicariously from video tapes.

We're not talking about developing olympic calibre kayaking skills
here, we're talking about a very simple task. If you absolutely
can't do it, give up on kayaking.

Mike

On 26-Oct-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

sorry, son, when it comes to hydrodynamic stability bigger IS better.

I'm not your son, little man, and you still haven't got a clue about
kayaking. You don't understand stability either.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
e.rogers.com...
On 26-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

So why doesn't someone who needs a paddle float -- which is JUST
ANOTHER TOOL -- also have a "more serious problem"?

Getting into a kayak without a stirrup is easy.
Getting in without a stability aid is harder.

Mike, I have to disagree with you here. I don't usually use a stirrup but I
always carry one. One day, while playing victim in a rescue/re-entry class,
I was faced with a rescuer who was unwilling or unable to lean his boat and
put his weight onto my boat to stabalize it while I re-entered. He was fine
with emptying my boat, but as I would try to pull myself over the back deck,
he would let the kayak roll so that the boat was on its side and the
cockpit was under water again. After three attempts, I realized this paddler
would not be able to do a regular "T" assisted rescue.

I asked for his sling and had him put it around his combing and over my
boat. This made his boat, take my weight and I just stepped up into my
cockpit. If this had been a real life situation and not a class, I would
probably still be in the water while waiting for him to learn rescue skills.

There are also some people who have negative buoyancy in their legs and they
just can't keep them on the surface. You don't have to use a stirrup by
wrapping it around a paddle that is placed under the 2 boats--I could never
recommend that method--but there is a use for it just like there is a use
for paddle floats, spare paddles, and every other piece of safety equipment
we carry.


I don't use either. I roll. Kayaking isn't about relying on tools,
it's about skill.

Have you never had a boat sucked off of you in rough surf or large breaking
waves--rolling won't necessarily help, if you have been removed from your
boat by Mother Nature or King Neptune. Also, a very common kayaking injury
is a shoulder dislocation. Suppose you had somebody in the water with a
dislocated shoulder. How would you suggest they pull themselves up onto
their back decks with one hand. Have you practiced this? This would be a
perfect scenario for a stirrup.

Since it is easy to get into a kayak without a stirrup, then
clearly not being able to do that should tell you something
about the paddler in question. It's an obvious cutoff - this
person can't reasonably handle a kayak if they can't do something
that's easy.

I don't buy this assumption at all. Many women don't have the upper body
strength to pull themselves over the deck--but they do have the lower body
strength to step up onto the back deck. Just because something is easy for
you, doesn't necessarily make it easy for someone else. If another method
works for them, so be it. What counts is that you do what works for you.


Steve

On 26-Oct-2003, "Seakayaker" wrote:

Mike, I have to disagree with you here. I don't usually use a stirrup but I
always carry one. [...]

I don't have a problem with using the stirrup as a one-off rescue
method. I can quickly tie my contact tow line into a sling
for such a purpose. However, those who _always_ need a stirrup
are over their heads.

After three attempts, I realized this paddler
would not be able to do a regular "T" assisted rescue.

But he could if he learns to get over his problem with leaning. One
of the first things I teach people is to lean on another kayak. This
before other assisted rescue methods. That allows them to realize
that they are more stable with two kayaks.

There are also some people who have negative buoyancy in their legs and they
just can't keep them on the surface.

That would be a person who is lean and that suggests relatively fit
for their weight. That's where a dolphin kick comes in. Mine only
stay at the surface with a wetsuit on. Without one, I can get near the
surface and a kick does everything else.

I don't use either. I roll. Kayaking isn't about relying on tools,
it's about skill.

Have you never had a boat sucked off of you in rough surf or large breaking
waves--rolling won't necessarily help, if you have been removed from your
boat by Mother Nature or King Neptune.

Re-entry and roll. If I'm in the surf zone, that would depend on water
depth - at some point it may be easier to walk to shore. Not much surf
on the Great Lakes, though.

Also, a very common kayaking injury
is a shoulder dislocation. Suppose you had somebody in the water with a
dislocated shoulder. How would you suggest they pull themselves up onto
their back decks with one hand. Have you practiced this? This would be a
perfect scenario for a stirrup.

Again, a one-off event. I've also practiced several one-arm rolls, but
how that would go with the additional pain of a real separation is something
I hope never to have to find out.

I don't buy this assumption at all. Many women don't have the upper body
strength to pull themselves over the deck--but they do have the lower body
strength to step up onto the back deck.

Well, I don't buy this. If they are that weak, how do they paddle at all?
I know that there are princesses out there that can't do a thing (and I've
seen kayaking guides tow them through an entire trip!), but most of the women
I paddle with would be insulted to have it suggested that they use a stirrup
because they're weak. If someone is serious about kayaking, they should
at least be able to do _one_ pushup!

Mike