On 2/21/2011 10:53 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 22:32:43 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:54:13 -0800, wrote:

They just want to use the platitudes you parrot that this will get
fixed some time in the future and they kick the can down the road.
Very unfunny. If you can't actually support your point of view,
perhaps it's time to retire from the discussion.
Since you don't seem to be very interested in boats or boating, why
don't you leave the group? Wilbur is lonely over on r.b.c after you
jilted him.
What is *your* problem? I think you're just afraid of me (or anyone
who challenges your self-made authority). I have no idea who Wilbur is
and I only visited rec.boats.cruising for a look-see a few days ago.
It didn't seem that interesting. How about you go there, since it
appears to be much more about boating, and that's what you want,
right?
We might take you up on your advice if you never return as Jessica,
DePlume, or any of your other silly fantasies.

On 2/22/2011 2:15 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:12:05 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:53:10 -0800, wrote:

I have no idea who Wilbur is
That's odd since both you and Wilbur's recent "girl friend" post with
the same account headers from Eternal-September.org
Believe what you want, but please leave me out of your paranoia!

Please put rec.boats out of your life. I couldn't request it more
plainly or respectfully.

On 2/21/2011 10:40 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:30:13 -0500, wrote:

I am not sure how to penetrate the dream world you live in.
It's a faith based belief system. :-)

Actually I can tell you how it will get resolved. At some point
there will be no one willing to buy any more US debt. Interest rates
will skyrocket and the economic system as we now know it will grind to
a halt. Inflation will run rampant and social security checks will
become worthless pocket money. There will be massive rioting in the
big cities and shortages of just about everything. It will not be
pretty at all. I'm thinking about buying another sail boat or a farm
in the country somewhere.

Sounds like another Egypt in the making.
BTW Did you hear what happened to poor Lara Logan. I like the poor girl
for her reporting, and guts, among other things. I hope she recovers
mentally as well as physically

On 2/22/2011 2:11 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:48:48 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:50:52 -0800, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 22:40:50 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:30:13 -0500, wrote:

I am not sure how to penetrate the dream world you live in.
It's a faith based belief system. :-)

Actually I can tell you how it will get resolved. At some point
there will be no one willing to buy any more US debt. Interest rates
will skyrocket and the economic system as we now know it will grind to
a halt. Inflation will run rampant and social security checks will
become worthless pocket money. There will be massive rioting in the
big cities and shortages of just about everything. It will not be
pretty at all. I'm thinking about buying another sail boat or a farm
in the country somewhere.
Yes, that's a correct analysis. We're not particularly close to that
situation.

In more than a sense, any kind of economic system beyond simple
transactions is a faith-based system. That's the definition pretty
much of 'full faith and credit.'
Our debt problem is about as bad as it was at the end of WWII but this
time we are not the engine of production and the only industrialized
country in the world that wasn't blown to hell.
We're also the place where just about everyone turns to when there are
problems, financial or otherwise.

We don't really have the production capacity to dig our way out of
this mess right now. It surely won't come from an internal service
economy paying for 80 million retired people.
One day the government will stop lying to us and tell us we have to
cut our spending, just like Europe is doing now.
We also better find something we can make and sell to the world to
repatriate some of our money
"One day" Well, whatever. The sky isn't falling.
Again. Ignorance is bliss.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 22:40:50 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:30:13 -0500, wrote:

I am not sure how to penetrate the dream world you live in.

It's a faith based belief system. :-)

Actually I can tell you how it will get resolved. At some point
there will be no one willing to buy any more US debt. Interest rates
will skyrocket and the economic system as we now know it will grind to
a halt. Inflation will run rampant and social security checks will
become worthless pocket money. There will be massive rioting in the
big cities and shortages of just about everything. It will not be
pretty at all. I'm thinking about buying another sail boat or a farm
in the country somewhere.

I know how to plow a field, cultivate corn, milk cows, and could probably
butcher a hog...if you need help.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 12:19:29 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:13:36 -0800, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:39:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:49:10 -0800, wrote:

It is not "long term" when you already can't pay your bills without
borrowing money and the serious obligations have not even hit yet.

Huh? People do this all the time when they use a credit card. While
not the best way to pay for things, it's fine if done responsibly and
in the short term.

If your credit card minimum payments are greater than your income you
are on the road to bankruptcy and that is what SS is doing right now.

And, that isn't the case for the US.

All of our government spending, including SS/Medicare is more than we
take in, right now. It is not just a little either, it is over 40
cents on every dollar. That is a problem today and there is no real
plan to fix it in the future.

It's only a problem "today" if the crazies in the house refuse to
raise the debt limit. It'll be a small problem if they refuse to pass
a reasonable budget. I certainly agree that it needs to be fixed and
we should just kick the can down the road, but there's no reason to
take draconian measures on the backs of the middle-class and poor.
Let's start with the rich.



From the 2010 SSA trustees report
"Annual cost is projected to exceed tax income in 2010 and 2011, to be
less than tax income in 2012 through 2014, then to exceed tax income
in 2015 and remain higher throughout the remainder of the long-range
period."
Considering their track record on "predictions" I doubt the 2012-2014
surplus will happen. That assumes we are going to reproduce the Bush
boom years of 2004-2006 again.

Medicare has been upside down for years.
From the trustees' report

"HI expenditures have exceeded income annually since 2008 and are
projected to continue doing so under current law through 2013 ...The
HI trust fund has not met the Trustees’ formal test of short-range
financial adequacy since 2003."

Interesting that you didn't quote from the top of the report...

"For Medicare, it projects that changes put in place by the new health
reform law will help extend the life of the program's trust fund by 12
years – from 2017 to 2029. But this projection comes with cautions
that such gains will be dependent on the federal government achieving
significant health care savings in the years to come. Meanwhile, the
recession has worsened Social Security’s financial health – at least
in the near term."

Why quote a lie? That all assumes THREE things. One that there is
really a trust fund, there isn't
Two. it also assumes they will increase the taxes like the health care
bill calls for. They just reduced the taxes 2% across the board. Why
would I think those 2014 increases will stand.
It also assumes health care costs will go down.
They always go up.

YOU quoted the report and conveniently left out the part you didn't
like.

I left out the things that were conjecture, dreams and estimates. I
am showing what is already happening.

According to you.

According to that trustees' report. The quotes you posted are all
prefaces with assumptions. You can just go look at the OMB site and
see what is happening right now.
SS/Medicare is simply paying out more than it takes in, every month.

Which has nothing to do with short-term problems. Keep trying. You're
just thrashing around over a long-term problem. Nothing is happening
next week (yes, that's a metaphor).

It is happening TODAY. Wayne is right, there is a limit to how long
people will still be willing to buy our debt and when the auctions
start going up, they will go up very fast.

Yes, there's a limit. There's no indication that those who buy it are
going to stop any time soon.


The 2014 thing assumes nobody changes the new health care law taxes.

The chance of that was only made worse by Obama cutting payroll tax
revenues by 2% (in the democratic congress) and they are even talking
about more cuts, perhaps dropping the payroll tax altogether.
They added taxes in the health care bill to get a good CBO cost
estimate and before the ink was dry they cut them again.
I think the plan is to dump the whole program into the general find
and remove any illusion that this is anything but a welfare program.
They have been spending any surplus as fast as it came in since 1939
so there is no "trust fund".

First sentence from the conclusion:

"Conclusion

The financial outlook for the Medicare program is substantially
improved as a result of the far-reaching changes in the Patient
Protection and Affordable Care Act."

The tax increases in that bill have already been gutted and they are
talking about removing the payroll tax altogether.

Just exactly what fixes do you see coming any time soon?
I know you say we need to raise taxes but your party does not seem to
agree. Both parties have bought into the idea that lower taxes creates
more revenue or that higher taxes stifle the economy (whether it is
down or if it is booming) .

This is totally untrue. The Dems have tried to raise taxes on those
over $250K, you even said as much, but the Reps won't have it. Get
your story straight. Did they or didn't they?

They talk about it but they had both houses of congress and the white
house. Nothing happened.

Which is a failing of the Democrats for sure. In any case, this is
what needs to happen. I think it will still happen in one form or
another.


They just want to use the platitudes you parrot that this will get
fixed some time in the future and they kick the can down the road.

Try again.

OK
They just want to use the platitudes you parrot that this will get
fixed some time in the future and they kick the can down the road.

Very unfunny. If you can't actually support your point of view,
perhaps it's time to retire from the discussion.


I am not sure what else to say. It is a fact that SS and Medicare
spend more than they make right now and you deny it. I have also never
seen any projection or guess than changes that in the LONG TERM.
I am not sure how to penetrate the dream world you live in.

No. I'm denying that it's a short term problem. I've said this several
times. Why is this difficult for you to get?

Because the long term failure has already started and there is no end
in sight. The projection of a surplus for a few years in the trustee
report is not valid now that Obama cut the total revenue by 14.2%
(taking 14% FICA down to 12%). It is like they just gave up on the
solvency of SS/Medicare.

No it hasn't. That's just FEAR not reality.


What is unreal about that? You are in the same kind of denial as those
people I tried to talk to in 2006. They kept saying house prices would
always go up. The huge debts they took on would never have to be paid
off because they could always sell the house for a profit.

You're mixing problems... if we had better regulation, the housing
bubble wouldn't have happened in such a terrible way. That's got
nothing to do with the long-term financial problems except
peripherally.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 12:27:04 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:21:30 -0800, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 00:53:40 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:59:57 -0800, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:57:01 -0500, wrote:



Anyone individual making more than $250K should be taxed a bit more on
the amount over the line... by a few percent as per what was proposed.
The Republicans fought tooth and nail to prevent that. The Democrats
even proposed pushing that up to $1M, but no go from the Republicans.
Why?

So you agree with my numbers now? OK

The answer to your question is simple. Rich people are the only ones
who can afford to buy congressmen. If the republicans were not taking
point on these tax loopholes, the democrats would be doing it.

Did you see this. A real eye opener about who is bribing whom.

http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpictur...Rep&Cycle=2008

Agree with which numbers? The fact is that the Republicans blocked a
reasonable tax increase and have made the situation worse.

I agree the Bush tax cuts should have expired, I always have, but I
also know it would not approach fixing this $1.1T deficit.

Yes, it would. OVER THE LONG TERM.
How is that?
You are not attacking a 1.1 trillion dollar deficit that is going up
every year with a $70B tax increase.

Try your math again.

It is not my math, itt is OMB. They say that tax hike would be $700B
in 10 years.


The projection for the whole thing (resetting to 2001 rates for
everyone) was only about $70B a year ($700B over 10 years)
That is why I put this in perspective and cited the total net worth
for the top 2%.
That would take care of the deficit for about 18 months and there
wouldn't be a US economy anymore because you liquidated all the big
companies.

You need to start thinking longer term.

It is worse in the future than it is now. How does long term help?
You are just kicking the can down the road and hoping you die before
you hit the wall. That may work if you are 75 but if you are in your
60s it is going to crash before you die.
If you are in your 50s it will hit the wall before you can retire.
Print this out and put it in your wallet with your social security
card

"By 2020 the minimum retirement age will be at least 70 and benefits
will be strictly means tested. If you are much above the poverty
level, you won't get a dime from Social Security"
"Medicare will be a totally different program and a lot less generous"

You will think I was nostradamus

I think you're very afraid.

Yes I am.
I can't help it if you think nothing can happen to us because we are
the USA but history shows us, all empires fall. It usually happens
when the government can't pay it's bills.

I've never said that. In fact, I've said repeatedly that we need to
get our house in order. Let's start with the House and the rich to
whom they cater.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 12:12:25 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 22:40:50 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:30:13 -0500, wrote:

I am not sure how to penetrate the dream world you live in.

It's a faith based belief system. :-)

Actually I can tell you how it will get resolved. At some point
there will be no one willing to buy any more US debt. Interest rates
will skyrocket and the economic system as we now know it will grind to
a halt. Inflation will run rampant and social security checks will
become worthless pocket money. There will be massive rioting in the
big cities and shortages of just about everything. It will not be
pretty at all. I'm thinking about buying another sail boat or a farm
in the country somewhere.

I know how to plow a field, cultivate corn, milk cows, and could probably
butcher a hog...if you need help.

I grew up in a rural area but don't have any "hands on" experience
milking cows, seen it done however.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:05:50 -0800, wrote:

Let's start with the rich.

Yes, the rich patent attorneys, couldn't agree more.

On 2/22/2011 2:40 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:05:50 -0800, wrote:

Let's start with the rich.
Yes, the rich patent attorneys, couldn't agree more.

Last I heard, Da Plume was a meter reader working for the city of Santa
Monica.