Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:26:49 -0500, Jim wrote:

W1TEF wrote:
On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, Jim wrote:

Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam is
waterlogged.

I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.

The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.

I got to thinking about it. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.

That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.

I've seen where some weigh their new boat and find it a couple hundred
pounds over. The manufacturers always claim it's because different
workers lay glass differently than others, especially in how much resin.
And that makes sense if you're talking 10% weight or so.

Funny you should mention that. Back when I was in the market for a
32' CC I thought about a custom designed CC from Blue Fin over in
Bristol, RI. We took a trip over there, met the design crew, took the
manufacturing plant tour (which was really interesting) and just
generally got comfortable with them - great folks by the way.

Anyhow, I asked about weight (because of the Ranger) and the design
guy told me the weight spec could be off as much as 10/12% to the plus
side and never on the other side. For exactly that reason - extra
layer of glass, little more mat in strength areas, density of the core
material and how it absorbed the resin under vacuum - he listed a
bunch of things that would cause the extra weight.

So you're right on that score.

Just as a side note, I would have bought the boat they planned for me
if the Grady dealer hadn't come up with an acceptable price. :)

I guess it suits my point which was if they are going to err, they will
always err on the lower side based on a perfectly constructed hull and
well.... Not really complaining, just sayin' that like buying a tent,
if it says it can comfortably ride 10, you can figure on a nice boat for
4-5;)

--
Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese!

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

W1TEF wrote:
On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:26:49 -0500, Jim wrote:

W1TEF wrote:
On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, Jim wrote:

Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam is
waterlogged.
I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.

The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.

I got to thinking about it. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.

That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.
I've seen where some weigh their new boat and find it a couple hundred
pounds over. The manufacturers always claim it's because different
workers lay glass differently than others, especially in how much resin.
And that makes sense if you're talking 10% weight or so.

Funny you should mention that. Back when I was in the market for a
32' CC I thought about a custom designed CC from Blue Fin over in
Bristol, RI. We took a trip over there, met the design crew, took the
manufacturing plant tour (which was really interesting) and just
generally got comfortable with them - great folks by the way.

Anyhow, I asked about weight (because of the Ranger) and the design
guy told me the weight spec could be off as much as 10/12% to the plus
side and never on the other side. For exactly that reason - extra
layer of glass, little more mat in strength areas, density of the core
material and how it absorbed the resin under vacuum - he listed a
bunch of things that would cause the extra weight.

So you're right on that score.


Heard that numerous times.
The manufacturers don't talk about it much though.
Here's a Merc/Rude/Yammie 250 test done in 2003.
They used "identical" factory new Stratos 201 Pro XL hulls.
http://www.bwbmag.com/output.cfm?id=943489
with just 3 hulls the weight variance was a bit over 5%.
80 pounds for a 1550 lb hull.
Easy to think it could go higher if they weighed more hulls.
Every glass layup is different.
Boston Whaler supposedly puts overweight boats aside to find what went
wrong. But I don't know what their variance limit is.
Glastron uses a "VEC" process that supposedly eliminates hand-laying
and weight variance to 1%. There's argument whether it's "better."
Most boats are still hand-laid.
A different source of foam could change the weight.
I heard two guys with the same boat but different years talking about
why one's transom was 1 1/2" thick, the other's 2".
Either glass difference or the maker changed the transom board.
The specs should still tell if you're waterlogged - except in the case
of your Ranger of course. Never heard anything like that.
Might make a good movie.

Jim - Mysteries are pretty boring when explained.

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

*e#c wrote:
On Aug 30, 1:43 pm, wrote:

On Aug 30, 1:28 pm, wrote:




On Aug 30, 12:15 pm, wrote:


On Aug 30, 12:00 pm, wrote:


On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, wrote:

Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam is
waterlogged.


I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.


The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.


I got to thinking about it. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.


That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.


How do you know the foam isn't waterlogged? Is all the space between
your floor and the hull accessible? Case it's not on most boats.


You're right on the money. The Foam Cores are almost always NOT
accessible. When I re-did the sub frames,and floors in my boat, it WAS
accessible. No water in there, luckily.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -

Yep, when I redid my floor I removed the foam. The foam was only
accessible with the floor removed.

The plywood in mine had separated already, so it was easy. The foam
cores were in the rear of the boat. Both sides, measuring 5 feet long,
by 2 feet square. covered with new ply, and fiber-glassed shut using
new matting.
Problem is, I haven't found a paint that will adhere to the glass
gelcoat... Ideas? I don't want carpet in the stern of the boat. When
fishing, it gets stained with Rainbow Trout blood...lol.
I could put down those 3m " no-slip " strips......

A real POS, eh?

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

On Aug 30, 8:29*pm, Larry wrote:
*e#c wrote:
On Aug 30, 1:43 pm, *wrote:

On Aug 30, 1:28 pm, *wrote:

On Aug 30, 12:15 pm, *wrote:

On Aug 30, 12:00 pm, *wrote:

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, *wrote:

Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam is
waterlogged.

I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.

The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.

I got to thinking about it. *A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. *To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.

That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.

How do you know the foam isn't waterlogged? *Is all the space between
your floor and the hull accessible? *Case it's not on most boats.

You're right on the money. The Foam Cores are almost always NOT
accessible. When I re-did the sub frames,and floors in my boat, it WAS
accessible. No water in there, luckily.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, when I redid my floor I removed the foam. *The foam was only
accessible with the floor removed.

The plywood in mine had separated already, so it was easy. The foam
cores were in the rear of the boat. Both sides, measuring 5 feet long,
by 2 feet square. covered with new ply, and fiber-glassed shut using
new matting.
Problem is, I haven't found a paint that will adhere to the glass
gelcoat... Ideas? I don't want carpet in the stern of the boat. When
fishing, it gets stained with Rainbow Trout blood...lol.
I could put down those 3m " no-slip " strips......

A real POS, eh?

It'll take rougher water than your ****box. " Loser Larry".

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

*e#c wrote:
On Aug 30, 8:29 pm, wrote:

*e#c wrote:

On Aug 30, 1:43 pm, wrote:


On Aug 30, 1:28 pm, wrote:


On Aug 30, 12:15 pm, wrote:


On Aug 30, 12:00 pm, wrote:


On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, wrote:


Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam is
waterlogged.


I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.


The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.


I got to thinking about it. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.


That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.


How do you know the foam isn't waterlogged? Is all the space between
your floor and the hull accessible? Case it's not on most boats.


You're right on the money. The Foam Cores are almost always NOT
accessible. When I re-did the sub frames,and floors in my boat, it WAS
accessible. No water in there, luckily.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Yep, when I redid my floor I removed the foam. The foam was only
accessible with the floor removed.


The plywood in mine had separated already, so it was easy. The foam
cores were in the rear of the boat. Both sides, measuring 5 feet long,
by 2 feet square. covered with new ply, and fiber-glassed shut using
new matting.
Problem is, I haven't found a paint that will adhere to the glass
gelcoat... Ideas? I don't want carpet in the stern of the boat. When
fishing, it gets stained with Rainbow Trout blood...lol.
I could put down those 3m " no-slip " strips......

A real POS, eh?

It'll take rougher water than your ****box. " Loser Larry".

I thought I didn't have a boat, now I do. Funny how that works, eh? So
what kind of boat do I have?

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:53:41 -0400, W1TEF
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:12:19 -0500, Jim wrote:

Heard that numerous times.
The manufacturers don't talk about it much though.
Here's a Merc/Rude/Yammie 250 test done in 2003.
They used "identical" factory new Stratos 201 Pro XL hulls.
http://www.bwbmag.com/output.cfm?id=943489
with just 3 hulls the weight variance was a bit over 5%.

I wonder how much environmental issues like humidity and air temp
during the layup/resin process add to this?

Be interesting to look into.

That might be a factor also but I've heard that the biggest variable
is the amount of resin used. Resin is heavy, almost 90 lbs to the
cubic foot, 50% heavier than water. It adds very little strength to
the hull since its primary function is to bind the layers of the
laminate together. Anything more than that is wasted but the
tendency is to use more than necessary because too little can lead to
delamination down the road. As a result quality control is very
important as well as techniques like vacuum bagging which squeeze out
excess resin before it cures.

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

On Aug 30, 8:38*pm, Larry wrote:
*e#c wrote:
On Aug 30, 8:29 pm, *wrote:

*e#c wrote:

On Aug 30, 1:43 pm, * *wrote:

On Aug 30, 1:28 pm, * *wrote:

On Aug 30, 12:15 pm, * *wrote:

On Aug 30, 12:00 pm, * *wrote:

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, * *wrote:

Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam is
waterlogged.

I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.

The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.

I got to thinking about it. *A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. *To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.

That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.

How do you know the foam isn't waterlogged? *Is all the space between
your floor and the hull accessible? *Case it's not on most boats..

You're right on the money. The Foam Cores are almost always NOT
accessible. When I re-did the sub frames,and floors in my boat, it WAS
accessible. No water in there, luckily.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, when I redid my floor I removed the foam. *The foam was only
accessible with the floor removed.

The plywood in mine had separated already, so it was easy. The foam
cores were in the rear of the boat. Both sides, measuring 5 feet long,
by 2 feet square. covered with new ply, and fiber-glassed shut using
new matting.
Problem is, I haven't found a paint that will adhere to the glass
gelcoat... Ideas? I don't want carpet in the stern of the boat. When
fishing, it gets stained with Rainbow Trout blood...lol.
I could put down those 3m " no-slip " strips......

A real POS, eh?

It'll take rougher water than your ****box. " Loser Larry".

I thought I didn't have a boat, now I do. *Funny how that works, eh? *So
what kind of boat do I have?

You...were the one touting you had a boat. Must be a real dream
machine as well, since you're " afraid " to post a picture of your so-
called Boat...with you pictured in it.
Now, blow up that Dinghy, and show me up...... Loser Larry.

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

On Aug 30, 9:52*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:53:41 -0400, W1TEF
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:12:19 -0500, Jim wrote:

Heard that numerous times.
The manufacturers don't talk about it much though.
Here's a Merc/Rude/Yammie 250 test done in 2003.
They used "identical" factory new Stratos 201 Pro XL hulls.
http://www.bwbmag.com/output.cfm?id=943489
with just 3 hulls the weight variance was a bit over 5%.

I wonder how much environmental issues like humidity and air temp
during the layup/resin process add to this?

Be interesting to look into.

That might be a factor also but I've heard that the biggest variable
is the amount of resin used. *Resin is heavy, almost 90 lbs to the
cubic foot, 50% heavier than water. * It adds very little strength to
the hull since its primary function is to bind the layers of the
laminate together. * Anything more than that is wasted but the
tendency is to use more than necessary because too little can lead to
delamination down the road. * As a result quality control is very
important as well as techniques like vacuum bagging which squeeze out
excess resin before it cures.

Ya, I've seen those broken boats that used less resin....reaaaaaaaal
strong.

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:13:53 -0400, I am Tosk
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, Jim wrote:

Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam is
waterlogged.

I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.

The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.

I got to thinking about it. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.

That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.

There is always the possibility the boat manufacturers play loose and
fast with the weight, the way auto manufacturers play with gas
mileage... Yes, even your beloved Ranger, what are they supposed to
tell you, "we lied". In the words of the immortal spaceman, "~snerk~"!

Oh no - that's not the case at all. They were right up front that the
specs could vary depending on any one particular boat.

It was the 870 lbs that floored them. Even if you took worst case
scenario manufacturing excess, extra ply on the hull/transom/etc.,
it still didn't work out to 870 lbs.

I talked to their engineers about it. We came up with a plan, opened
the access panels, tilted the boat, drain open - nada. Hull dry as a
bone.

Still don't know where the weight came from. Not that it matters. :)

With my Parker, they knew just how much weight in gear, fuel, etc. that
I would be adding and factored that into the weight and were right on!

Should I Upgrade or Update My Engine?
 

"Secular Humanist" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:13:53 -0400, I am Tosk
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:21:18 -0500, Jim wrote:

Best advice you got so far was to weigh the boat to see if the foam
is
waterlogged.

I don't know if you remember Jim, but I found out that my Ranger bay
boat is about 870 lbs over published weight putting the whole rig
right on the edge of trailer capacity - 4,980 lbs for a 5,000 lb
trailer.

The foam isn't waterlogged. I called Ranger about it and they didn't
have an explanation either.

I got to thinking about it. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. To have
870 lbs of extra water weight, the boat would have to hold 109 gals of
water.

That's a lot of cubic feet of water to have in foam on a 20 foot boat.

There is always the possibility the boat manufacturers play loose and
fast with the weight, the way auto manufacturers play with gas
mileage... Yes, even your beloved Ranger, what are they supposed to
tell you, "we lied". In the words of the immortal spaceman, "~snerk~"!

Oh no - that's not the case at all. They were right up front that the
specs could vary depending on any one particular boat.

It was the 870 lbs that floored them. Even if you took worst case
scenario manufacturing excess, extra ply on the hull/transom/etc.,
it still didn't work out to 870 lbs.

I talked to their engineers about it. We came up with a plan, opened
the access panels, tilted the boat, drain open - nada. Hull dry as a
bone.

Still don't know where the weight came from. Not that it matters. :)

With my Parker, they knew just how much weight in gear, fuel, etc. that
I would be adding and factored that into the weight and were right on!


That is after they cut a big chunk out of the transom to make their numbers
work.

--
I'm the real Harry, and I post from a Mac, as virtually everyone knows.
If a post is attributed to me, and it isn't from a Mac, it's from an ID
spoofer who hasn't the balls to post with his own ID.