"Harry" wrote in message
...
On 6/24/10 11:07 AM, YukonBound wrote:


"Harry" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Harry" wrote in message
m...
On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B

wrote:
Tragic:

http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html

Even more so...

"None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets
at
time of accident."

Sad.

It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run over
by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with those
statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that
wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not
always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational
boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or
can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation call.

It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed
seeing
this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator
might have missed seeing them.


According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What
size
barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge
operator
could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small
boat,
it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the
direction of that train of barges significantly.

Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post a
forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge.

Good point... or maybe they should be restricted in how many barges
they can
push in a confined space.
We have a bit of a similar controversy up here on 'road trains'...
that is
18 wheelers pulling two trailers, rather than one.
Lots of safety concerns from the public.

How is a two trailer truck rig similar to a tug pushing barges, little
buddy?

Kevin.. keep quiet. The men are discussing an important safety concern.
If we get around to preventing broken arms in pre-teens, we'll advise
you.


Poor LoogyFlaJimLarry, et al...reduced to faking the IDs of others in
order to get a bit of attention.

Actually, Mrs. Harry Krause is an unused and available nik.

"Jack" wrote in message
...
On Jun 23, 8:06 pm, "mmc" wrote:
"I am Tosk" wrote in
l-september.org...





In article 1660a4fc-2c0c-46bd-a669-a72a65d5d112
@b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jun 22, 10:34 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF
wrote:

Even more so...

"None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at
time of accident."

Sad.

It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been
avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. I have
to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except
under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that
wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges
and a tug. Probably not is my guess but you never know.

They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice
the
barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at the
critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor own and couldn't get
it up, etc. There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does
drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats mixing
in with large commercial traffic.

One has to wonder if the tug operator suffers from the same malady
that many of the 18 wheeler drivers do. The "I'm a 'professional'
driver, and these mere regular people in their cars and trucks need to
get out of my way" attitude. Rules of navigation notwithstanding,
it's on his conscience now.

Must be a local thing... Most truckdrivers here are pretty good on the
road. They hate to crash, slows them down plenty..

--
Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese!

I drove some for a couple jobs I had and after experiencing enough idiots
cutting in front of me and hearing about truckers dying or ending up
seriously injured rather than running (literally) over a "4 wheeler" I
took
the attitude that if a driver was stupid enough to make it a him/her or me
situation it was going to be him/her.

Are you one of those truckers who will run up behind a "4 wheeler" and
sit there, tailgating, a foot or two off their bumper, knowing that
you don't have a prayer of stopping if traffic slows suddenly? Or one
of those who switches into the left passing lane going downhill,
knowing full well an uphill is just a few hundred feet ahead, and now
you'll just become a moving roadblock, running beside your brethren
trucker in the right lane, for the next 5 miles, unwilling to speed up
to get by and move back over? Or the trucker that pulls out into a
two lane road with traffic approching, knowing it will take you a mile
or two of struggling just to barely approach the speed limit, all the
while with traffic backing up behind you?

And then you wonder why people seemingly cut in front of you? It's
because of many trucker's bad driving behavior and general lack of
driving courtesy. Besides, if you guys were such great drivers, we
wouldn't have to shut down the interstate on a nearly weekly basis
because some dumb trucker has spilled his load on one of the off-
ramps... you know, the ones that are clearly marked with a sharp turn
sign and a low speed limit.

I believe that 18 wheelers should be limited to interstates only, and
have to off-load their cargo to smaller trucks within a mile or two of
the interstate. That would eliminate the severe damage they inflict
on the secondary roads, and the havoc they inflict on traffic. If
they spill their load, they personally pay for the cleanup. Cause an
accident, lose your commercial license *forever*.

I do appreciate them hauling our cargo. Just don't act like an
asshole and try to kill us while doing it!

On Jun 24, 8:19*am, I am Tosk wrote:
In article d7d0cc54-b70c-4ae3-97cc-
,
says...





On Jun 23, 8:06 pm, "mmc" wrote:
"I am Tosk" wrote in l-september.org...

In article 1660a4fc-2c0c-46bd-a669-a72a65d5d112
@b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jun 22, 10:34 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF
wrote:

Even more so...

"None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets at
time of accident."

Sad.

It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been
avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. I have
to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except
under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that
wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges
and a tug. Probably not is my guess but you never know.

They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice the
barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at the
critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor own and couldn't get
it up, etc. There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does
drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats mixing
in with large commercial traffic.

One has to wonder if the tug operator suffers from the same malady
that many of the 18 wheeler drivers do. The "I'm a 'professional'
driver, and these mere regular people in their cars and trucks need to
get out of my way" attitude. Rules of navigation notwithstanding,
it's on his conscience now.

Must be a local thing... Most truckdrivers here are pretty good on the
road. They hate to crash, slows them down plenty..

--
Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese!

I drove some for a couple jobs I had and after experiencing enough idiots
cutting in front of me and hearing about truckers dying or ending up
seriously injured rather than running (literally) over a "4 wheeler" I took
the attitude that if a driver was stupid enough to make it a him/her or me
situation it was going to be him/her.

Are you one of those truckers who will run up behind a "4 wheeler" and
sit there, tailgating, a foot or two off their bumper, knowing that
you don't have a prayer of stopping if traffic slows suddenly? *Or one
of those who switches into the left passing lane going downhill,
knowing full well an uphill is just a few hundred feet ahead, and now
you'll just become a moving roadblock, running beside your brethren
trucker in the right lane, for the next 5 miles, unwilling to speed up
to get by and move back over? *Or the trucker that pulls out into a
two lane road with traffic approching, knowing it will take you a mile
or two of struggling just to barely approach the speed limit, all the
while with traffic backing up behind you?

And then you wonder why people seemingly cut in front of you? *It's
because of many trucker's bad driving behavior and general lack of
driving courtesy. *Besides, if you guys were such great drivers, we
wouldn't have to shut down the interstate on a nearly weekly basis
because some dumb trucker has spilled his load on one of the off-
ramps... you know, the ones that are clearly marked with a sharp turn
sign and a low speed limit.

I believe that 18 wheelers should be limited to interstates only, and
have to off-load their cargo to smaller trucks within a mile or two of
the interstate. *That would eliminate the severe damage they inflict
on the secondary roads, and the havoc they inflict on traffic. *If
they spill their load, they personally pay for the cleanup. *Cause an
accident, lose your commercial license *forever*.

I do appreciate them hauling our cargo. *Just don't act like an
asshole and try to kill us while doing it!

Wow, you must live in some weird bizarro world! Truckers here are pretty
good, it's the "4 wheelers" who do everything you just said, rarely
truckers...

--
Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese!

You have 4 wheelers spilling their loads on off-ramps?

Seriously, we have two "major" ports, Savannah and Charleston, that
puts lots of trucker traffic on the roads around here. And while
there are certainly plenty of cars that exhibit some of the same
behavior, I can get around or avoid a car much easier than an 80 foot
long truck. An idiot in a 40 ton truck is *far* more dangerous than
in a 2 ton car.

Besides, mmc gave us a peek into a trucker's mind... he said he
developed an attitude that instead of trying to avoid an accident he
would just plow right through us in his truck. Nice, huh?

I drove some for a couple jobs I had and after experiencing enough idiots
cutting in front of me and hearing about truckers dying or ending up
seriously injured rather than running (literally) over a "4 wheeler" I
took
the attitude that if a driver was stupid enough to make it a him/her or me
situation it was going to be him/her.

Are you one of those truckers who will run up behind a "4 wheeler" and
sit there, tailgating, a foot or two off their bumper, knowing that
you don't have a prayer of stopping if traffic slows suddenly? Or one
of those who switches into the left passing lane going downhill,
knowing full well an uphill is just a few hundred feet ahead, and now
you'll just become a moving roadblock, running beside your brethren
trucker in the right lane, for the next 5 miles, unwilling to speed up
to get by and move back over? Or the trucker that pulls out into a
two lane road with traffic approching, knowing it will take you a mile
or two of struggling just to barely approach the speed limit, all the
while with traffic backing up behind you?

And then you wonder why people seemingly cut in front of you? It's
because of many trucker's bad driving behavior and general lack of
driving courtesy. Besides, if you guys were such great drivers, we
wouldn't have to shut down the interstate on a nearly weekly basis
because some dumb trucker has spilled his load on one of the off-
ramps... you know, the ones that are clearly marked with a sharp turn
sign and a low speed limit.

I believe that 18 wheelers should be limited to interstates only, and
have to off-load their cargo to smaller trucks within a mile or two of
the interstate. That would eliminate the severe damage they inflict
on the secondary roads, and the havoc they inflict on traffic. If
they spill their load, they personally pay for the cleanup. Cause an
accident, lose your commercial license *forever*.

I do appreciate them hauling our cargo. Just don't act like an
asshole and try to kill us while doing it!

--------
Never ran anyone off the road, didn't tailgate and would have loved not
having to get off the major highways and having to travel through city
streets......
I wasn't getting paid by the mile. Those drivers have to cram as many miles
as they can into the allowed 10 hours per day in order to make a living.
Some run 2 logs and run much longer and sometimes those will fall asleep.
For me at both jobs, driving was a secondary duty and I got my regular wage
while performing this.
It would be interesting to see how many tractor/ trailer accidents don't
involve other drivers or other outside influences. Not very many drivers
would ever just crash and spill thier load unless they just decide to end it
all one day. It's harder to lose a CDL than it is to lose a job if an
accident is the drivers fault. Employers screen drivers records, so unsafe
drivers eventually can't get jobs at all. For the number of trucks there are
on the road, there are VERY few accidents.
I had a good friend get killed by a tractor/ trailer driver. He was stopped
at a red light on his Harley and the trucker ran him over. This doesn't mean
all drivers are bad any more than one bad example from any group sets the
standard for the entire group.

"I am Tosk" wrote in message
...
In article m,
says...

"I am Tosk" wrote in message
...
In article 1660a4fc-2c0c-46bd-a669-a72a65d5d112
@b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, says...

On Jun 22, 10:34 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:00 -0400, W1TEF

wrote:

Even more so...

"None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets
at
time of accident."

Sad.

It is sad, and it's really not clear exactly how it could have been
avoided other than greater vigilance/keeping out of the way. I have
to admit that I'm not much into wearing life jackets either except
under the most extreme circumstances, and it's not really clear that
wearing a life jacket will save you from being run over by 8 barges
and a tug. Probably not is my guess but you never know.

They probably became distracted by their fishing and didn't notice
the
barges until too late, or perhaps their engine failed to start at
the
critical juncture, or maybe they had an anchor own and couldn't get
it up, etc. There are lots of possibilities I suppose but it does
drive home the danger associated with small recreational boats
mixing
in with large commercial traffic.

One has to wonder if the tug operator suffers from the same malady
that many of the 18 wheeler drivers do. The "I'm a 'professional'
driver, and these mere regular people in their cars and trucks need to
get out of my way" attitude. Rules of navigation notwithstanding,
it's on his conscience now.

Must be a local thing... Most truckdrivers here are pretty good on the
road. They hate to crash, slows them down plenty..

--
Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese!

I drove some for a couple jobs I had and after experiencing enough idiots
cutting in front of me and hearing about truckers dying or ending up
seriously injured rather than running (literally) over a "4 wheeler" I
took
the attitude that if a driver was stupid enough to make it a him/her or
me
situation it was going to be him/her.

Yeah, we pretty much always have a trailer on the rig and I can't
believe what folks will do driving around a trailer. People are so
stupid, and they could really care less about you or your family.

Like my neighbor said. "They don't drive like idiots, they just want to
get there before you"!

--
Rowdy Mouse Racing - We race for cheese!

Yep. The things you see when you don't have an RPG launcher handy!

On Jun 24, 12:10*pm, "mmc" wrote:
I drove some for a couple jobs I had and after experiencing enough idiots
cutting in front of me and hearing about truckers dying or ending up
seriously injured rather than running (literally) over a "4 wheeler" I
took
the attitude that if a driver was stupid enough to make it a him/her or me
situation it was going to be him/her.

Are you one of those truckers who will run up behind a "4 wheeler" and
sit there, tailgating, a foot or two off their bumper, knowing that
you don't have a prayer of stopping if traffic slows suddenly? *Or one
of those who switches into the left passing lane going downhill,
knowing full well an uphill is just a few hundred feet ahead, and now
you'll just become a moving roadblock, running beside your brethren
trucker in the right lane, for the next 5 miles, unwilling to speed up
to get by and move back over? *Or the trucker that pulls out into a
two lane road with traffic approching, knowing it will take you a mile
or two of struggling just to barely approach the speed limit, all the
while with traffic backing up behind you?

And then you wonder why people seemingly cut in front of you? *It's
because of many trucker's bad driving behavior and general lack of
driving courtesy. *Besides, if you guys were such great drivers, we
wouldn't have to shut down the interstate on a nearly weekly basis
because some dumb trucker has spilled his load on one of the off-
ramps... you know, the ones that are clearly marked with a sharp turn
sign and a low speed limit.

I believe that 18 wheelers should be limited to interstates only, and
have to off-load their cargo to smaller trucks within a mile or two of
the interstate. *That would eliminate the severe damage they inflict
on the secondary roads, and the havoc they inflict on traffic. *If
they spill their load, they personally pay for the cleanup. *Cause an
accident, lose your commercial license *forever*.

I do appreciate them hauling our cargo. *Just don't act like an
asshole and try to kill us while doing it!

--------
Never ran anyone off the road, didn't tailgate and would have loved not
having to get off the major highways and having to travel through city
streets......
I wasn't getting paid by the mile. Those drivers have to cram as many miles
as they can into the allowed 10 hours per day in order to make a living.
Some run 2 logs and run much longer and sometimes those will fall asleep.
For me at both jobs, driving was a secondary duty and I got my regular wage
while performing this.
It would be interesting to see how many tractor/ trailer accidents don't
involve other drivers or other outside influences. Not very many drivers
would ever just crash and spill thier load unless they just decide to end it
all one day. It's harder to lose a CDL than it is to lose a job if an
accident is the drivers fault. Employers screen drivers records, so unsafe
drivers eventually can't get jobs at all. For the number of trucks there are
on the road, there are VERY few accidents.
I had a good friend get killed by a tractor/ trailer driver. He was stopped
at a red light on his Harley and the trucker ran him over. This doesn't mean
all drivers are bad any more than one bad example from any group sets the
standard for the entire group.

I generally agree with you... I've just had a couple of "up close and
personal" incidences with trucks, and it's tempered my thinking on
them somewhat. You're right, most are pretty good.

"Harry" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Harry" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Harry" wrote in message
m...
On 6/23/10 8:21 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 22, 9:29 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:09:42 -0400, Wayne.B

wrote:
Tragic:

http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html

Even more so...

"None of the people in the fishing boat were wearing life jackets
at
time of accident."

Sad.

It's not likely that a life jacket would have saved someone run
over
by a bunch of barges and a tug. That's the problem I have with
those
statistics, the "pro life jacket" people always want to assume that
wearing a life jacket would have saved the victim. And that is not
always the case. We don't wear life jackets while recreational
boating. I only ask people to wear one if they are very young or
can't swim. Wearing a life jacket is a situation by situation
call.

It's hard to imagine tht these three guys could have all missed
seeing
this bearing down on them. I can understand how the tug operator
might have missed seeing them.


According to the news story, the tug was pushing nine barges. What
size
barges, I don't know, but that far back, it is unlikely the barge
operator
could see anything in front of him, and, if he could see the small
boat,
it isn't likely he could have stopped in time or even changed the
direction of that train of barges significantly.

Perhaps operators of pusher barge trains should be required to post
a
forward lookout on the bow of the most forward barge.

Good point... or maybe they should be restricted in how many barges
they
can
push in a confined space.
We have a bit of a similar controversy up here on 'road trains'...
that
is
18 wheelers pulling two trailers, rather than one.
Lots of safety concerns from the public.

How is a two trailer truck rig similar to a tug pushing barges, little
buddy?

Kevin.. keep quiet. The men are discussing an important safety concern.
If we get around to preventing broken arms in pre-teens, we'll advise
you.

First of all, WTF is Kevin? I'm Harry, the best at everything. I have
everything, I know everything. I'm refined and cultured. I would never
stoop so low as to call people silly names. With that said, why not
answer the question if you are so concerned about safety?

For the 27th time (man, you are slow off the start) Kevin Noble of
Snellville Ga (reputed to be 54 years old) is the short tempered, cocky
engineering technician who has such a poor reputation (something to do with
broken arms) that he feels the need to steal the ids of decent posters.
He also fancies himself as a bit of a badass...an adult version of the
Karate Kid.

On 23/06/2010 11:54 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/2010 9:10 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/2010 11:30 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 22/06/2010 6:59 PM, nom=de=plume wrote:

wrote in message
...
Tragic:

http://www.newschannel9.com/news/cre...-capsized.html

Terrible loss of life. Not even wearing life jackets... sad.

Darwinian actually.

It is law, if you are in a shipping lane or channel, and you are
more
manouvable you ge tthe frac out of the way. Unless you have diver
flags
out, then the barge would be at fault.

Would be interesting to see who they blame.

--
The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common
sense.

Unless there are facts we're not privy to, I think it's pretty
obvious who
has the majority of the fault. But, I suspect that the barge
operator will
take some percentage blame. Even if she was doing everything
'right', she
would still have the obligation to avoid a collision.


If you are a captain pushing a barge train, there isn't much you can
do to avoid a collision.
9 barges at a couple million pounds each are not going to turn on a
dime and it might take a couple miles to stop them.
About he can do is blow his horn.

In the strictest sense, it is in the details.

If the small boat was at anchor, then this gives the boater a certian
right as they are not under power. While the barge being obviously
less maneuverable has the right of way *provided* the small boat is
under power.

If the boat was not under power and at anchor, the barge MUST warn of
it's intent. It can't just blindly go down the river hell bent for
election and blindly run it down.

Another factor is about where the boat was anchored, is it a marked
right of way for shipping lane? This is unfavorable for the small boat
if so marked as you are not to park your arse in a active shiping
lane. But if outside the shipping lane, this is unfavorable to the
barge.

We didn't get enough details on the read to say who was in fact guilty.

Even gets more complex on what flags were out, such as a diver flag.

Speed of the abrge is less importannt here. Other than he may have
been going faster than he could safely control it. For example, if the
small boat was on anchor, out of the shiping lanes it has the right
and if the barge was going too fast for control, that is a problem
with the barge captain.

--
The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense.

They were in a channel I believe. Thus, no anchoring allowed.

Of course anchorage would not be inside the shipping lane. But there
are aften anchorages just outside of those lanes.

I will wait until we see more detail. But the families aught to get a
good legal beegle that know the local and federal laws on this. Could
be a juicy law suit.

--
The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense.

Or, you're just an idiot. Occam's razor at work.

You know for one that claims for be a lawyer or legal clerk, or tolet
cleaner in a legal office, you really know ****.

--
The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense.

On 24/06/2010 7:24 PM, A.Boater wrote:
Your politics has always been screwed up, now I find that, as a boater, you
are equally an idiot.

Please stay the hell OFF the water until you have a chance to read the
COLREGS and understand them. You are DANGEROUS.

Holy crap, what an idiot.

-- recap
Depends, was where they were for shiping? I can't believe barges are
considered to be the right of way near anchorage points for example. No
mater what their size.
---

Hey, for that mater does a barge get the right to go over a marked
swiming area because it is navigatable?

Marked anchorages are there to park and do stuff like sleep or go to
shore. And ANY craft just a barreling though is out of line. You read
the regs ... Anchorages and swiming areas, out of control barges would
be guilty as it gets.

--
The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense.

On 24/06/2010 6:11 AM, I am Tosk wrote:
In ,
says...

On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:32:18 -0400, I am Tosk
wrote:

I have been there and almost got run over.. How you can miss it? I don't
know it's huge but the one that crept up on my was like a big silent
planed slipping in in the night... No lights on the front of the barges,
it was crazy.

I thought the front barge was required to have running lights and a
flasher.
At any rate the sun was up when this happened

No, it was dark out when it happened.. If it had a flasher, it was not
visible or at least apparent from my point of view.. All I saw was a
bright star off in the distance and it started closing fast. Turned out
it was the tug light, I barely got out of the way with my little 2 horse
motor on the little aluminum skiff.

In that case, the barge captian should get a ticket. No lights, no
horn, night...

I don't know local regs, try that in Canada and you will get charged if
they see it.

--
The bigger government gets, the more it tends to rule out common sense.