Barack Obama's Idea of 'Government Transparency' Would Make Dick Cheney Proud
 

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:13:51 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 21:26:52 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:57:25 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

The point is, that was a fairly accurate portrayal of the US special
ops training at the time. If they can do it to US trainees, it would
be assumed, in the field, that you could do it to the enemy.


No. That's completely wrong! Just because our troops are trained to
withstand torture doesn't mean we should torture others.


That is a nice living room discussion but people in combat situations
sometimes do not make those distinctions. I am not even sure that was
framed as "torture" in the training, just as an interrogation
technique.
One of the guys I have known most of my life was in Force Recon
(Marines) That is why I know what Nov 10 is ;-)
The trainers beat the crap out of them in training and went out of
their way to harden them to death, pain and general misery. It is
pretty hard to tell these guys, splashing a little water in someone's
face is torture.


This has nothing to do with "combat situations." This has to do with the CIA
and other similar organizations methodically torturing prisoners. It didn't
even have to do with getting intel. They already got the intel by using
standard interview techniques. Even the FBI would have none of it.

If you can believe our government there were only a few people
actually waterboarded and they deny what Thunder just posted.
Personally I would not be shocked if some of our Muslim "allies" did
things like that tho.
The kindest thing we could do to these guys was to take them to Gitmo.
We could just turn them over to the other tribe. That is one thing
about Muslims. It is not hard to find another brand of Muslim who
hates their guts.

Do you remember the end of "The sum of all Fears" (Tom Clancy book,
not the movie)

When they didn't think they could do anything with the main suspect
they just turned him over to the Saudis.

This isn't about anyone's behavior but ours. We sell America as
having higher ethical standards -- have striven to set the bar for the
rest of the civilized world. Torture isn't a higher standard.

Barack Obama's Idea of 'Government Transparency' Would Make Dick Cheney Proud
 

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:13:15 -0600, thunder
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:42:56 -0500, gfretwell wrote:


That is a nice living room discussion but people in combat situations
sometimes do not make those distinctions. I am not even sure that was
framed as "torture" in the training, just as an interrogation technique.
One of the guys I have known most of my life was in Force Recon
(Marines) That is why I know what Nov 10 is ;-) The trainers beat the
crap out of them in training and went out of their way to harden them to
death, pain and general misery. It is pretty hard to tell these guys,
splashing a little water in someone's face is torture.

*If* splashing a little water was all that happened. An estimated 100
detainees died during, or immediately after, interrogations. I don't
think splashing a little water could do that. Torture could.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...ured-to-death/

http://www.aclu.org/human-rights/us-...istan-and-iraq

Thunder, your sources don't appear to be the most believable, but even
so...

From the ACLU source:

"The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled,
beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot
and cold environmental conditions."

You'll note there is no mention of 'waterboarding'.

Between the two cites, we start with, "...An estimated 100 detainees
have died during interrogations, some who were clearly tortured to
death." (dailybeast0

We then read, "The documents released today include 44 autopsies and
death reports..." (ACLU) We then get to, "...According to the
documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides."(ACLU)

And lastly we read, "Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted
from abusive techniques used on detainees..."(ACLU)

And I'm not saying that abuses didn't occur. But, no where do I see
any evidence of waterboarding being the indescribably horrendous
torture which liberals try to make it.

Barack Obama's Idea of 'Government Transparency' Would Make Dick Cheney Proud
 

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:13:15 -0600, thunder
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:42:56 -0500, gfretwell wrote:


That is a nice living room discussion but people in combat situations
sometimes do not make those distinctions. I am not even sure that was
framed as "torture" in the training, just as an interrogation technique.
One of the guys I have known most of my life was in Force Recon
(Marines) That is why I know what Nov 10 is ;-) The trainers beat the
crap out of them in training and went out of their way to harden them to
death, pain and general misery. It is pretty hard to tell these guys,
splashing a little water in someone's face is torture.

*If* splashing a little water was all that happened. An estimated 100
detainees died during, or immediately after, interrogations. I don't
think splashing a little water could do that. Torture could.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...ured-to-death/

http://www.aclu.org/human-rights/us-...istan-and-iraq

Thunder, your sources don't appear to be the most believable, but even
so...

From the ACLU source:

"The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled,
beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot
and cold environmental conditions."

You'll note there is no mention of 'waterboarding'.

Between the two cites, we start with, "...An estimated 100 detainees
have died during interrogations, some who were clearly tortured to
death." (dailybeast0

We then read, "The documents released today include 44 autopsies and
death reports..." (ACLU) We then get to, "...According to the
documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides."(ACLU)

And lastly we read, "Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted
from abusive techniques used on detainees..."(ACLU)

And I'm not saying that abuses didn't occur. But, no where do I see
any evidence of waterboarding being the indescribably horrendous
torture which liberals try to make it.


Come on.... the waterboarded two of the terrorists... forget their names
hundreds of times. Waterboarding has been considered torture since the
Spanish Inquisition. If you don't think it's so bad, I'm sure you can get
someone to try it on you. Wasn't some right-winger named Mad Dog
waterboarded as a demo? (A situation where he knew they would stop if there
was a problem). He gave up after just a few seconds, and claimed he almost
died.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Barack Obama's Idea of 'Government Transparency' Would Make Dick Cheney Proud
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 21:26:52 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:57:25 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

The point is, that was a fairly accurate portrayal of the US special
ops training at the time. If they can do it to US trainees, it would
be assumed, in the field, that you could do it to the enemy.


No. That's completely wrong! Just because our troops are trained to
withstand torture doesn't mean we should torture others.


That is a nice living room discussion but people in combat situations
sometimes do not make those distinctions. I am not even sure that was
framed as "torture" in the training, just as an interrogation
technique.
One of the guys I have known most of my life was in Force Recon
(Marines) That is why I know what Nov 10 is ;-)
The trainers beat the crap out of them in training and went out of
their way to harden them to death, pain and general misery. It is
pretty hard to tell these guys, splashing a little water in someone's
face is torture.


This has nothing to do with "combat situations." This has to do with the
CIA
and other similar organizations methodically torturing prisoners. It
didn't
even have to do with getting intel. They already got the intel by using
standard interview techniques. Even the FBI would have none of it.

If you can believe our government there were only a few people
actually waterboarded and they deny what Thunder just posted.
Personally I would not be shocked if some of our Muslim "allies" did
things like that tho.

In any case, it's torture. It doesn't matter if it was done one time or
thousands.

The kindest thing we could do to these guys was to take them to Gitmo.
We could just turn them over to the other tribe. That is one thing
about Muslims. It is not hard to find another brand of Muslim who
hates their guts.

This has nothing to do with kindness or what some other group would or
wouldn't do. We're Americans and are supposed to be better than that. It
doesn't matter what someone has done. They don't deserve to be tortured.
Period.

Do you remember the end of "The sum of all Fears" (Tom Clancy book,
not the movie)

When they didn't think they could do anything with the main suspect
they just turned him over to the Saudis.

Again, I really don't base my philosophy on a movie or fictional book. I
prefer to base my opinions upon the law.


--
Nom=de=Plume