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Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
"wf3h" wrote in message ... On Sep 24, 10:26 am, "SaPeIsMa" wrote: "wf3h" wrote in message Apparently true in your universe of ignorance, prejudice and bigotry Not true in my world of reasoned thought. # # since when is wearing a bedsheet proof of logic? # Since never I suspect that in your case we can safely claim that its proof of stupidity After all, you're the idiot who is fascinated about wearing bedsheets Clearly you imagine that making such declarations is proof of something # # chuckle. the right claims obama's an enemy space alien sent by # romulans to destroy us by making us all socialist muslims The ONLY idiot CONSTANTLY making such stupid claims is you Are you claiming to be "the right" ? So far, you've only shown yourself to be "the wrong"... # # so you think the economy's doing fine because the rich are still rich, # middle class be damned... Your strawman YOU feed it I have better things to do. # # can't handle the truth? # There's no truth in your stupid ramblings Just a lot of delusion # # this isn't a 'recession', it's a depression. i know to the right, if # the middle class starves, but the rich do fine, then all is OK You had better get yourself a good dictionary You're vocabulary is sadly in need of repair. Oh and by the way, I haven't seen any reports of "the middle class starving" Feel free to support (another one of ) your stupid claims # # hmmmm...real unemployment is about 16% and rising. middle class # incomes haven't increased, after inflation, for 30 years # That's not evidence of ANYONE "starving" But it is evidence that you're delusional # # the richest 1%, however, saw their incomes almost triple # And ? Apparently, you're not only stupid, you're jealous.. # # no wonder you right wingers think everything's fine # More delusion on your part # # i'm sure you think crying 'projection' is a talisman for warding off # evil, but it's not an argument. sorry I don't try to argue stupid projections SPECIFICALLY because they are both stupid and projections You on the other hand are stupid enough to imagine tha making stupid projections is intelligent arguement IT IS NOT ! So why don't you grow up and try to argue like an intelligent adult When you do, you will have a chance of being somewhat credible # # can't you just see him with a psych 101 book # 'projections...transference' Who's "him" ? Your alter ego ? # # the book he's never cracked, however, is calle ECONOMICS... Yes, that is quite evident from your posts, You never cracked either of those books. # the fact is social welfare spending in the US is less than in # virtually any other western country. yet to the far right, ANY help # given to the middle class takes away money that belongs to the rich... LOL you really are an ignorant scut 1) money is fungible # # except, of course, most welfare payments are IN KIND payments which # are NOT fungible # So you're claiming that welfare recipients are paid in cigarettes, beer and hot dogs ? Don't be stupid # oh. you don't know what an 'in kind' payment is. More stupid assumption from you 2) The rich, unlike the middle class, are not stuck living in a place where they get over-taxed # # they're hardly taxed at all. as leona helmsley said, 'only the little # people pay taxes'. And yet, the rich pay a DISPROPORTIONATE percentage of taxes in this country Why don't you EDUCATE yourself instead of swallowing the propaganda you are being spoon-fed by your handlers. http://www.realclearmarkets.com/arti...eir_taxes.html They just move themselves and their money out of reach of the taxman 3) So it's the middle-class that gets hit hard by the stupid tax-schemes proposed by idiots like you to (over) tax the rich adn "redistribute the wealth" # # ROFLMAO!!! fine. when i make $1M i'll let you know. # NO chance of that ever happening You're too stupid, ignorant and gullible to ever make more than minimum wage. 4) The reason that "social welfare spending" is low in the US is that historically the US has ALWAYS been into letting people CHOOSE how they spend their money instead of having the government tell them how they MUST spend their money (through taxation). # # now let's look at your argument # Yeah, do that And give us a good laugh with the next series of stupid presumptions # # 1. social welfare spending is destroying the US True # 2. there is no social welfare spending in the US FALSE # 3. therefore it's obama's fault Stupid conclusion based on false premise YOu screwed the pooch again, dummy # # uh...OK.... Truman failed to get health care through, and Obambi will also fail to do so, for the same reasons 5) There is an inverse rule about the success of a country and it's level of "social welfare spending" The more "social welfare spending", the less well the economy is doing in the long run # # really. then why are countries like sweden, norway, denmark, germany, # france...all doing economically as well as we are even thought their # social welfare spending is higher than ours? Have you been to those countries recently ? I was in Europe just last week Visiited family in England, Sweden, Holland, Germany, Austria and Hungary Guess what, dummy They're not doing that well, contrary to what you may want to believe. # # oh. you right wingers don't look at the data. you just have your # little fairy tales and that's all you need. The only one spouting the fairy tales here is you # # and, of course, welfare spending hasnt changed in 20 years, but the # economy collapsed last year, so welfare couldnt have had an effect 1) Last time I checked, the economy did NOT "collapse" # # a 50% drop in the stock market # Yup that happens when a 60+ year bubble finally bursts #35% drop in most 401k's # See above # 10% unemployment # See above # record number of foreclosures... See above # # but the rich are doing OK...so to a right winger everything's fine Your stupid conclusion Why do you insist on making stupid conclusions ? Not even close It was just a bubble bursting # # ROFLMAO!!! hey moron...i used to work for lucent tech. when they made # semiconductors....THAT was a bubble...this is an economic collapse. Which just goes to show how ignorant you are This was a bubble that was 60+ years in the making and was exacerbated by laws and regulations that were put in place mostly by the Democrats over that period of time By the way, what did you do for Lucent ? Change lightbulbs ? Clearly, you're too stupid for anything else 2) Since you're the only one suggesting that welfare could have an effect on the collapse of a Financial Bubble, you're only arguing with yourself You do know that the financial bubble that burst last year was 60+ years in the making # # ah. so proof of the bubble is that there was no bubble for half a # century Once again, even with a clear statement, you get it wrong No wonder you got kicked out of Lucent The bubble took 60+ years to grow That means very small bubble grows to very,very big bubble, until it pops.. # # yep. more right wing logic. # No just simple fact, that you are to stupid, ignorant and bigotted to grasp.. # # has nothing to do with the free market fundamentalism you guys # pushed...and are still pushing....socialism for the rich... LOL You have got your terminology all confused And you also produced and oxymoron, you poor moron Free Market Fundamentalists do NOT push ANY form of "socialism" They leave that to idiots like you # it's all the ******s having more babies and driving up welfare # costs... there you go with the racist remarks again You really can't seem to help yourself you little racist ****.. Too bad that history shows that it's socialism in all it's various forms that effectively destroys the middle class # # good thing no one's a socialist, isnt it? and what has free market # fundamentalism done for the US in the last year but trash our economy. # even richard posner is now a keynesian. Then posner is an idiot # # well that's a well reasoned argument. It's not an argument, dummy It's a conclusion (that's what the word 'then" implies) But again, you show your ignorance Keynes was pretty well discredited a long time ago # # really? who sez? cuz posner's not the only one giving him a re-look. # in fact, 'rational expectations' free market theory is collapsing # under attack from 'behavorial economists' who look at the way people # actually MAKE decisions The problem is that although Keynes, was a great believer in the complexity of human interaction not being easily modeled, Economists did glom on to a model built according to the main argument in the book, "The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money", by 2 other economists called Hansen and Hicks, and that allowed American economists to then spend a lot of time crunching numbers to fit their theories to the model Something from which Keynes distanced himself early on, BECAUSE it ignored his thsis that complexity was not easily modeled. This was brought to a Culmination when Kennedy, brought a boat load of so-called Keynesian economists into the White House. It was the 1970 inflationary fiasco, which put the nail into the Keynesian model. # # but you right wingers...well...you just go on with your fairy tales # about horatio alger and gordon gecko as american heroes, m'kay? There you go, off on one of your stupid tangents again It was Keynesian school thinking that created the stagflation that we saw during Carter It was Reagan who put the knife into it and got the economy going again\ # # and did so by using KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS...massive govt debt to pump # the economy... BZZZZT Wrong again Reagan used the Neo-Classical model espoused by the Chicago School. # # jesus you're incredibly stupid. I woud rather be considered stupid by one whom I repeatedly show to be ignorant, than the other way around # # except, of course, the DATA shows EXACTLY the opposite. middle class # incomes increase under democrats and decrease under republicans. the # rich, however, do VERY well under the GOP. Feel free to cite the data I doubt that you can And instead we can expect that you will treat us (once again) to your fantasies about sucking rush limbaughs testicles # so, go ahead. keep telling us more fairy tales # # you know, every time you tell me that, you get your ass handed to # you. # # http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...ith_a_profoun/ # # "Overall, middle-class and poor voters do substantially better under # Democrats. Naturally, because under the Democrats, they get handed freebies that the Democrats finance with DEBT Just like Obambi is doing RIGHT NOW And under the Republicans, when then have to clean up the Democrat mess, they end up having to pay for the free ride # # so, AGAIN you get bitch slapped... # Only in your stupid wet dreams The rest of the time, I'm wiping the floor wth you Why should we You're doing a bang-up job of it We're just sitting back to watch a stupid little bantam rooster, strut and crow # and while you sit here with your thumb up your ass like little jack # horner, the world is tumbling down around you... I leave the weird sexual **** to idiots like you # # which the right has always done..and when you destroy the middle class # by stripping labor protection, sending their jobs overseas, all in the # name of capital gains....you've wrecked a society Uh NO ! It's the DEmocrats who raise taxes # # of COURSE we raise taxes on the rich...they had a 270% increase in # income...after making the middle class pay for THEIR mistakes. Last time I checked it was a DEMOCRAT Congress that did the pork loaded bailout, for which they can't even account for where the money went.. # # yet you think the middle class should continue to be raped....typical # right winger The only one raping the middle class are the lefties who suck them dry to pay for the goodies they give to the welfare bums that keep voting them back into office Maybe we should eliminate the vote for those who are on the dole. That way they will not be able to vote in venal Democrats who then rape the country to pay of the voters that put them in office Oh wait, you buy into the stupid fantasy that the Democrats only tax the "rich" and don't screw the middle-class in the process Well, just goes to show how ignorant you are... # # you have rush and his fantasies # Actually, YOU DO You're the one constantly taking about him I have yet to listen to him even once. But hey, don't let me **** on you and your ignorance # # i have the data. now let's see....who is telling the truth and who is # swimming in a septic tank of right wing mythology.... Well, since you have been lying from the get-go, that makes you the one swimming in **** Enjoy I'm done with you, you stupid bigoted and ignorant racist |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 24, 9:20*pm, "SaPeIsMa" wrote:
"wf3h" wrote in message # # not even enough to use up all the visas they're entitled to. the # article points out that H1B visas used to be used up on the very first # day they were available # # not anymore And ? Less foreign workers means less competition for US workers Apparently you prefer that Americans be out of work while foreigners get the jobs more goalpost moving. you're slow so don't realize the other right wing idiot was tryin to make the argument that indians and chinese were swamping our shores 'cuz this is a land where the middle class gets rich are you really stupid, or just pretending? * * You have a very skewed sense of what's important But then considering the rest of the ignorant **** you spout, that's no surprise- says the guy who's clueless about the thread. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 24, 9:18*pm, "SaPeIsMa" wrote:
"Wilson Woods" wrote in message Another way of kicking your ****ing teeth in. *I'd do it in person if I had the chance. Nah What's the point of kicking cockroaches ?- why? you worried about committing suicide? |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 24, 9:16*pm, Zombywoof wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:00:56 -0700 (PDT), wf3h wrote: cutting taxes with no revenue increase and no decrease in spending NECESSARILY causes an increase in the deficit. i realize you right wingers can't count, but have a 4th grader explain it to you. It doesn't have to increase the Deficit, it could just increase the Debt. *However, I realize most on the left don't know much about Finance as it wasn't taught in the fourth-grade prior to most of them dropping out. says another right wing lunatic who believes that tax cuts for the rich benefit the middle class...after all, rush said it so it must be so... and you should aspire to 4th grade. but you'd need 30 IQ points to get there and wall street sold 62 TRILLION in CDO's without the reserves to cover them...so they created a debt obligation... then when the debt came due and they couldn't pay it, they decided to socialize their risk and have the middle class pay for it. Nah that pie got divvied up right nice, pretty much all of the classes got a slice. *However, as usual they weren't equal slices, but that is one area where the Government really doesn't believe in Equality. which, of course, is wrong. the govt under bush made sure the rich got taken care of, and the rest of us just got taken and you seem to want to ignore the entire history of the united states in the last year. Wow, the entire History of the United States all happened in the last year? * Must've been one helluva busy year for somebody. you're a right winger so reading comprehension isn't your strong suite |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 24, 10:03*pm, Zombywoof wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:09:56 -0700 (PDT), wf3h wrote: Since never I suspect that in your case we can safely claim that its proof of stupidity After all, you're the idiot who is fascinated about wearing bedsheets Clearly you imagine that making such declarations is proof of something chuckle. the right claims obama's an enemy space alien sent by romulans to destroy us by making us all socialist muslims I've heard them claim a lot of stuff, but that is a new one on me. *I think you just pulled it out your ass it stinks so bad. # methinks you have me confused with rush can't handle the truth? What is the "truth" monkey knuckle? *Matter of fact what is "Rich" and what is "Middle Class"? *What is the current tax burden distribution in the U.S.? # guess you're unaware of what the capital gains tax rate is figures. let me tell you: it's higher than your IQ but not by much hmmmm...real unemployment is about 16% and rising. middle class incomes haven't increased, after inflation, for 30 years Yup "real" Unemployment is at about 16%. *It isn't really rising, but fluctuating around as it normally does at this time of the year. really? 2 years ago the rate was about 4.5%. now it's double that again, since it affects the middle class, you don't particularly care. Provide some sort of cite, reference, or even mathematical equation that incomes haven't increased when adjusted for inflation in 30-years. *Oh, and make sure you do the adjustments for effective tax rates as well. you know, every time you right wingers ask for this, it proves 2 things: 1. you dont know what the hell is happening in this country 2 you get your asses h anded to you http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...ur-lost-decade "Today the Census Bureau released its latest income numbers, and they weren't pretty: median income dropped by nearly $2,000 between 2007 and 2008. Nor was the long term picture much better: median income in the past decade has dropped from $52,587 in 1999 to $50,303 in 2008" so your right wing delusions that the middle class is rich is just another bed time story told to you to make you a better sock puppet the richest 1%, however, saw their incomes almost triple Ever heard of the term "The Rich get richer"? *That is actually the way it is supposed to be, especially when you don't make any investment in yourself or anything else. so **** the middle class. the rich, magically, have invested in themselves because they're better human beings than the working people of this country as i said, the rich hate the middle class BTW -- that same 1% you are talking about, they also carry 39.38% of the overall tax-burden as well.http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/22652.html great. they made all the money. they should pay the taxes. AND they stole MY money to make sure they stay rich no wonder you right wingers think everything's fine Did you lose your job? *Don't have the required skills to effectively compete in the job market? * Exactly what is your personal issue that makes you want to pick the pockets of others? says the guy who thinks the middle class should eat cake they're hardly taxed at all. as leona helmsley said, 'only the little people pay taxes'. I'd try to find a little bit better of source of information then Leona Helmsley. *The top 1% carry 39.38% of the overall tax-burden.http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/22652.html since their incomes tripled, yes, they should pay more taxes. the problem is, they keep telling the middle class we're worthless just like you're doing now. you're proving my point, sock puppet. you drip hatred for working men and women ROFLMAO!!! fine. when i make $1M i'll let you know. What are you still doing a Paper Route? *20 years of employment @ 50k a year is a Million. *Unless your 12, or don't have the skills to make $50k a year what else could be your issue? the idiot moron right winger doesnt know the difference between income and wealth no wonder the right wing is so brain dead... really. then why are countries like sweden, norway, denmark, germany, france...all doing economically as well as we are even thought their social welfare spending is higher than ours? They are doing as economically well as we are. *Because they are Nanny States they don't have as far to fall on their ass is all. *The Global Recession absolutely affected both Germany & France. *Sweden, Norway & Denmark are not as reliant on the Global Economy since their not major exporting nations. ROFLMAO!! first he says the US is the richest country because we dont have welfare spending THEN he admits other countries which DO have safety nets are as rich as we are... and clue for you you right wing ****ING IDIOT: sweden's GDP is 50% dependent on exports (.http://www.swedishwire.com/business/933-swedish- export-weakest-since-wwii) jesus ****ING CHRIST you're stupid! got any OTHER bull**** you want to lie about? oh. you right wingers don't look at the data. you just have your little fairy tales and that's all you need. And you post no data, and even if you did your obviously analyzing it wrong, which of course gives more credence as to why your not capable of making $50k a year. well let's see...you dont know the difference between wealth and income you don't know sweden's economy is 50% dependent on exports you're unaware that middle class incomes haven't increased in the last decade but, by GOD you've got it all figured out! by JIMMINY, yessirree! rush has told you the rich are doing well, so that means america is in GREAT shape!! of course EVERYTHING you believe is WRONG... # # and, of course, welfare spending hasnt changed in 20 years, but the # economy collapsed last year, so welfare couldnt have had an effect 1) * *Last time I checked, the economy did NOT "collapse" a 50% drop in the stock market Stock Market is a bouncy-bouncy ball type thing. *Goes up & down. uh huh. by 50%. more black hole ideology from the right wing Yeah this time it went down faster then it usually does, then entered free fall, but could have that been angst of the possibility of a Socialist President unfriendly to business which made some people take their profits & run? mighta coulda maybe.... the economy tanked last year long before obama was even a candidate jesus you're desperate. 35% drop in most 401k's In most, not all. *Some of mine went down, others went up. uh...no. everyone's went down. 13 TRILLION dollars worth of middle class assets disappeared in the last year. rather than blaming your rich buddies, you blamed obama who wasn't even a CANDIDATE when the economy started tanking jesus ****ing christ you're stupid *In order for people to make money in the market others have to lose money. uh...no. some folks dont make as much money as they could, but it's WRONG that someone has to lose money you just don't know any goddamn thing about economics. you have your rush limbaugh security blanket, and myths about the rich...and that's all you need! *So when there is a lot of money being lost, there is also the opportunity to make a lot. *As you already said, some people saw their wealth triple. uh...yeah. because they quit paying the middle class. but the rich are doing OK...so to a right winger everything's fine And so are other people as well. *Now ya`all without an education who work at manual labor jobs might not be, but others are doing just fine. hell you don't even know how wrong you are about basic features of the US economy...and you're pontificating about the slovenly middle class! * * * * Not even close * * * * It was just a bubble bursting ROFLMAO!!! hey moron...i used to work for lucent tech. when they made semiconductors....THAT was a bubble...this is an economic collapse. As what a janitor? *-- Oh excuse me, Building Services Engineer. IOW you have no answers so you make 'em up as you go along and, unlike you, i respect janitors. they work for a living. you don't. i would never run down a person's job since it's an honorable job. you? you think honest working people deserve to get ****ed has nothing to do with the free market fundamentalism you guys pushed...and are still pushing....socialism for the rich... The market will adjust, it always has, or at least does when it is truly free. and you're gonna chant that mantra, regardless of what the data shows. that's the difference between a realist like me and an intellectual child like you. i look at the data and come to conclusions you? you listen to talk radio and believe the mush rush pushes into your empty head it's all the ******s having more babies and driving up welfare costs... Please don't dive into the shallow end of the pool, you don't appear to have all that many brain cells left. compared to you an earthworm is a mental giant you realize EVERYTHING you said here is wrong. typical right wing bull****...in addition to your hatred for honest working people |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 24, 10:20*pm, "SaPeIsMa" wrote:
"wf3h" wrote in message # # chuckle. the right claims obama's an enemy space alien sent by # romulans to destroy us by making us all socialist muslims The ONLY idiot CONSTANTLY making such stupid claims is you Are you claiming to be "the right" ? * * So far, you've only shown yourself to be "the wrong"... says the guy who believes obama is selling us out to havana in spite of the fact his rich buddies have sold us out to china # # this isn't a 'recession', it's a depression. i know to the right, if # the middle class starves, but the rich do fine, then all is OK You had better get yourself a good dictionary You're vocabulary is sadly in need of repair. says the guy who's struggling to get past 'a' in the dictionary. # # the richest 1%, however, saw their incomes almost triple # And ? Apparently, you're not only stupid, you're jealous.. ah. so while the rich steal from the middle class you just shrug your shoulders... figures. typical right winger # the fact is social welfare spending in the US is less than in # virtually any other western country. yet to the far right, ANY help # given to the middle class takes away money that belongs to the rich.... LOL you really are an ignorant scut 1) money is fungible # # except, of course, most welfare payments are IN KIND payments which # are NOT fungible # So you're claiming that welfare recipients are paid in cigarettes, beer and hot dogs ? * * Don't be stupid ever hear of food stamps? rent assistance? etc etc.... what a moron... 2) The rich, unlike the middle class, are not stuck living in a place where they get over-taxed # # they're hardly taxed at all. as leona helmsley said, 'only the little # people pay taxes'. And yet, the rich pay a DISPROPORTIONATE percentage of taxes in this country Why don't you EDUCATE yourself instead of swallowing the propaganda you are being spoon-fed by your handlers. * *http://www.realclearmarkets.com/arti...ch_and_their_t... ROFLMAO!! to you, ANY taxes paid by the rich are 'disproportionate' since only the little people should pay taxes # # ROFLMAO!!! fine. when i make $1M i'll let you know. # NO chance of that ever happening You're too stupid, ignorant and gullible to ever make more than minimum wage. IOW i'm middle class and work for a living and that makes you sick since honest work is just for the little folks # # now let's look at your argument # Yeah, do that And give us a good laugh with the next series of stupid presumptions # # 1. social welfare spending is destroying the US * * True then why hasn't it destroyed sweden, germany, france, etc? oh. that just blew your right wing circuits in addition, welfare payments haven't increased in years...but the economy was destroyed last year a logical person would never suggest welfare was responsible...but to the reagan brain dead morons, it's the ****** welfare queens... # 2. there is no social welfare spending in the US * * FALSE # 3. therefore it's obama's fault Stupid conclusion based on false premise YOu screwed the pooch again, dummy tell us again how the ******s are destroying america go ahead. take the time to go through rush's arguments... The more "social welfare spending", the less well the economy is doing in the long run # # really. then why are countries like sweden, norway, denmark, germany, # france...all doing economically as well as we are even thought their # social welfare spending is higher than ours? Have you been to those countries recently ? I was in Europe just last week Visiited family in England, Sweden, Holland, Germany, Austria and Hungary actually yes, i've been to 14 foreign countries including the UK, sweden, germany and austria. their welfare spending is higher than ours. and they're hardly wrecked countries, no matter what the right wing believes in their delusions.. Guess what, dummy They're not doing that well, contrary to what you may want to believe. and america, in the fevered imagination of the right, is doing great uh huh. if this is success, then what does failure look like? you right wingers just put your blinders on, take your drugs and tell yourselves everything's OK 'cuz the rich are doing well 1) Last time I checked, the economy did NOT "collapse" # # a 50% drop in the stock market # Yup that happens when a 60+ year bubble finally bursts i LOVE it!! a 60 year bubble!! of course, most of the last 30 years we've had GOP presidents...with free market fundamentalists in control...so perhaps you're right...the right wing DID run up a bubble that the middle class is paying for # # ROFLMAO!!! hey moron...i used to work for lucent tech. when they made # semiconductors....THAT was a bubble...this is an economic collapse. Which just goes to show how ignorant you are This was a bubble that was 60+ years in the making and was exacerbated by laws and regulations that were put in place mostly by the Democrats over that period of time ROFLMAO!! ever hear of reagan? pres for 8 years? bush? 4 years. bush II, 8 years. looks like the GOP was in control for most of the time and middle class incomes go UP under democrats and DOWN under republicans...mostly 'cuz the GOP hates the middle class...as you are showing By the way, what did you do for Lucent ? * * Change lightbulbs ? Clearly, you're too stupid for anything else says the guy who sweeps out elephant stalls for a living # # ah. so proof of the bubble is that there was no bubble for half a # century Once again, even with a clear statement, you get it wrong * * No wonder you got kicked out of Lucent The bubble took 60+ years to grow That means very small bubble grows to very,very big bubble, until it pops... and how does he know it was a bubble that lasted 60 years? uh...well he just made it up... just like other right wing stories Free Market Fundamentalists do NOT push ANY form of "socialism" * * They leave that to idiots like you sure they do. who do you think pushed the 'too big to fail' model? the 'monetarism' policy? that's socialism for the rich # *it's all the ******s having more babies and driving up welfare # costs... there you go with the racist remarks again You really can't seem to help yourself you little racist ****.. says the racist who thinks ****** welfare queens, and not wall street, are responsible for the current economy even though welfare costs have DECREASED over the last years while the income of the rich has tripled so he has no evidence...he makes up racist statements about blacks...ignores the greed of the rich which even alan greenspan admitted shocked HIM.... and he says all is right with the world 'cuz the rich are OK Keynes was pretty well discredited a long time ago # # really? who sez? cuz posner's not the only one giving him a re-look. # in fact, 'rational expectations' free market theory is collapsing # under attack from 'behavorial economists' who look at the way people # actually MAKE decisions The problem is that although Keynes, was a great believer in the complexity of human interaction not being easily modeled and the right made up a simple model which DOESNT WORK. a, Economists did glom on to a model built according to the main argument in the book, "The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money", by 2 other economists called Hansen and Hicks, and that allowed American economists to then spend a lot of time crunching numbers to fit their theories to the model Something from which Keynes distanced himself early on, BECAUSE it ignored his thsis that complexity was not easily modeled. This was brought to a Culmination when Kennedy, brought a boat load of so-called Keynesian economists into the White House. It was the 1970 inflationary fiasco, which put the nail into the Keynesian model. gee. and the latest collapse of the US economy? oh. you just ignore it because your milton friedman free market mythology can't handle it. you spent all your time here denying a financial collapse even exists. yet you say one happened in the 70's.... let me know when the drugs wear off... |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 25, 9:13*am, Zombywoof wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:46:38 -0700 (PDT), wf3h wrote: typical right wing bull****...in addition to your hatred for honest working people Well you had *chance and you used it to blather, no wonder your just part of the **** & moan set. -- says the guy who whines like a frightened puppy about the president.... |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 25, 9:21*am, Zombywoof wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:04:18 -0700 (PDT), wf3h wrote: NO chance of that ever happening You're too stupid, ignorant and gullible to ever make more than minimum wage. IOW i'm middle class and work for a living Ok, going to give you one more chance prior to sending you off to the Bozo Bin. *What is the "Middle Class", what is "Rich"? *What is working for a living, bushing a broom, or the POTUS? why don't you tell me? you seem to think hedge fund managers earn their keep by the sweat of their brows while janitors are fleecing the economy... |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 25, 5:28*pm, Zombywoof wrote:
Ok, going to give you one more chance prior to sending you off to the Bozo Bin. *What is the "Middle Class", what is "Rich"? *What is working for a living, bushing a broom, or the POTUS? why don't you tell me? you seem to think hedge fund managers earn their keep by the sweat of their brows while janitors are fleecing the economy... Well you blew your last gasket -- off to the Bozo bin. You know, I don't get all this BS about how the middle class hasn't had a raise in 30 years. I look around at the middle class, and they're living in nice houses, parking at least one nice, new car in their two car garage, watching a big screen HDTV, PS3, the kids are going to music and voice lessons, soccer, and have a car of their own when they get old enough. And then have tons of opportunity to go to college when they graduate. I grew up middle class, and we didn't have all that! It used to be that if you wanted to live an affluent life, you studied and worked your ass off, and hoped you'd make it. Now people seem to think they deserve it if they barely graduate high school just because they live in the USA! |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:53:10 -0700, Jack wrote:
You know, I don't get all this BS about how the middle class hasn't had a raise in 30 years. I look around at the middle class, and they're living in nice houses, parking at least one nice, new car in their two car garage, watching a big screen HDTV, PS3, the kids are going to music and voice lessons, soccer, and have a car of their own when they get old enough. And then have tons of opportunity to go to college when they graduate. Maybe it's different here, than there, but here, it mostly takes 2 incomes to provide all that. 30-40 years ago, it wasn't that common for wives to work. Now, it is uncommon if they don't. That has to account for something. You'll also note, at the recent G20, there were messages that America can no longer be counted on to be the world's marketplace. It's becoming clear, that America's consumers can no longer afford to drive the world's economy. All those jobs shipped off to China, may produce cheap goods, but if you don't have a job, even cheap goods are not affordable. I grew up middle class, and we didn't have all that! It used to be that if you wanted to live an affluent life, you studied and worked your ass off, and hoped you'd make it. Now people seem to think they deserve it if they barely graduate high school just because they live in the USA! |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 25, 10:41*pm, thunder wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:53:10 -0700, Jack wrote: You know, I don't get all this BS about how the middle class hasn't had a raise in 30 years. *I look around at the middle class, and they're living in nice houses, parking at least one nice, new car in their two car garage, watching a big screen HDTV, PS3, the kids are going to music and voice lessons, soccer, and have a car of their own when they get old enough. *And then have tons of opportunity to go to college when they graduate. Maybe it's different here, than there, but here, it mostly takes 2 incomes to provide all that. *30-40 years ago, it wasn't that common for wives to work. *Now, it is uncommon if they don't. *That has to account for something. * That's true. While my Mom didn't have a career, she did work before the first kids were born, and then again after the last were old enough to take care of themselves when they came home from school. IOW, she was a stay at home mom when it counted. But that doesn't really discount my point though, does it? People these day want it all... several kids, big screen TV, nice cars, and oh yeah... jobs that didn't require going to college, hard work, or anything that resembles sacrifice to "earn" a salary that lets them provide this to their family. Our parents did this, but modern parents (and evidently liberals) think that all Americans should have these advantages... without the hard work. I don't believe so. You'll also note, at the recent G20, there were messages that America can no longer be counted on to be the world's marketplace. *It's becoming clear, that America's consumers can no longer afford to drive the world's economy. *All those jobs shipped off to China, may produce cheap goods, but if you don't have a job, even cheap goods are not affordable. You have to admit that the unions have driven the wage for uneducated labor up so much, that the USA can't be competitive in a world market. I'd love to see the jobs come back to the USA. However, it's unrealistic to think that a person that barely graduated high school would be able to give his family the big house, big screen TV, nice car reality that other, harder working people get. This is the land of opportunity, not the land of hand-outs. "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 25, 5:28*pm, Zombywoof wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:42:10 -0700 (PDT), wf3h wrote: On Sep 25, 9:21*am, Zombywoof wrote: On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:04:18 -0700 (PDT), wf3h wrote: NO chance of that ever happening You're too stupid, ignorant and gullible to ever make more than minimum wage. IOW i'm middle class and work for a living Ok, going to give you one more chance prior to sending you off to the Bozo Bin. *What is the "Middle Class", what is "Rich"? *What is working for a living, bushing a broom, or the POTUS? why don't you tell me? you seem to think hedge fund managers earn their keep by the sweat of their brows while janitors are fleecing the economy... Well you blew your last gasket -- off to the Bozo bin. -- good. then i can be a right wing talk show host |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 25, 5:53*pm, Jack wrote:
On Sep 25, 5:28*pm, Zombywoof wrote: Ok, going to give you one more chance prior to sending you off to the Bozo Bin. *What is the "Middle Class", what is "Rich"? *What is working for a living, bushing a broom, or the POTUS? why don't you tell me? you seem to think hedge fund managers earn their keep by the sweat of their brows while janitors are fleecing the economy... Well you blew your last gasket -- off to the Bozo bin. You know, I don't get all this BS about how the middle class hasn't had a raise in 30 years. *I look around at the middle class, and they're living in nice houses, parking at least one nice, new car in their two car garage, watching a big screen HDTV, PS3, the kids are going to music and voice lessons, soccer, and have a car of their own when they get old enough. *And then have tons of opportunity to go to college when they graduate. IOW don't confuse you with the evidence, your mind is made up. yep. typical right winger. all is right with the world 'cuz the rich are rich and the middle class is struggling...evidence be damned I grew up middle class, and we didn't have all that! and i didn't. guess that makes a difference *It used to be that if you wanted to live an affluent life, you studied and worked your ass off, and hoped you'd make it. *Now people seem to think they deserve it if they barely graduate high school just because they live in the USA! uh...no. the right preaches god has ordained the rich to be rich, and the middle class has an obligation to support them regardless of how they pork the middle class |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 25, 10:41*pm, thunder wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:53:10 -0700, Jack wrote: You know, I don't get all this BS about how the middle class hasn't had a raise in 30 years. *I look around at the middle class, and they're living in nice houses, parking at least one nice, new car in their two car garage, watching a big screen HDTV, PS3, the kids are going to music and voice lessons, soccer, and have a car of their own when they get old enough. *And then have tons of opportunity to go to college when they graduate. Maybe it's different here, than there, but here, it mostly takes 2 incomes to provide all that. *30-40 years ago, it wasn't that common for wives to work. *Now, it is uncommon if they don't. *That has to account for something. * exactly. the reason median income has kept pace with inflation (without INCREASING) is due to more 2 income families. the right wing delusion that the middle class has increasing wealth is WRONG You'll also note, at the recent G20, there were messages that America can no longer be counted on to be the world's marketplace. *It's becoming clear, that America's consumers can no longer afford to drive the world's economy. *All those jobs shipped off to China, may produce cheap goods, but if you don't have a job, even cheap goods are not affordable. even the right wing is starting to get the message that, when you lay off your consumers, the economy tanks. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 26, 12:56*am, Zombywoof wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:32:37 -0700 (PDT), Jack wrote: "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson Old TJ was a wise man. *Most of our Founding Fathers wrote on the danger of this and an unrestrained government. *I think if alive today most would screamed at as a Tea-Bagger for not being onboard with the program. -- old TJ would turn over in his grave at the socialism in this country...for the rich |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 26, 12:53*am, Zombywoof wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:41:38 -0500, thunder wrote: Maybe it's different here, than there, but here, it mostly takes 2 incomes to provide all that. *30-40 years ago, it wasn't that common for wives to work. *Now, it is uncommon if they don't. *That has to account for something. * Yeah it does account for something, like a whole plethora of Social Problems. *While I won't save "wife", but when both spouses work who's going to take care of hearth & home keeping those home fires burning and nurturing the family unit? ah the family unit, much beloved of the right wing. except they do everything they can to destroy it. family leave? they opposed it. it would hurt the profit of the rich contraception? they oppose it. it reduces the work force protection against sex discrimination? they oppose it. women shouldn't be in the workforce unemployment insurance? they oppose it. the middle class is lazy. ony the rich work hard. lots of blather about the 'family unit'. but they draw a BIG bull's eye on the family. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 26, 2:21*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote : in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years. they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized Not over that 20 years they weren't. *Unionization is quite a recent thing with IBM. *The first alliance was in 1999. thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized companies in silicon valley have disappeared. Now, in recent history, in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200 in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in Raliegh, NC. *In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and another 14,000 in August of the same year. *Their was a mass termination at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). *Half of the consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be let go. *The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will have to pay for medical benefits. * again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union. motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union plants that have disappeared. So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;( really? so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant? oh. there aren't any thanks again for proving why unions are great. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 26, 10:35*pm, Zombywoof wrote:
I've been an Exempt Employee all my adult life and have been at two Companies while they went through the Unionization process. * and i've worked for both unionized and non unionized companies. unionized companies are healthier In one Management was absolutely more then happy to see their workers unionize because it allowed them to dump a ****-load of personnel programs that weren't required by law, and costing them tons of money.\\ things like vacations...won by union workers? you ready to give up weekends and vacations? In the other management took what is more the normally perceived action and attempted to dissuade the workers from organizing. *Of course since they really can't prevent it they eventually develop and since there's no penalty for firing workers engaged in unionizing, that's what companies do. then they cry when things like the EFCA are proposed ed a "How can we best turn this to our advantage approach". *In very, very high level Executive Management discussions it was decided to wait and see what the end-result of collective bargaining was going to be on the bottom line, usually an increase in hourly wages, then balance the ledger with numerous & massive cuts in the existing quality of life programs. *Once again the employees perceived a win, yeah were making more money, but took it in the ass on all sorts of benefits & perks. -- chuckle what i've seen is that unionized companies are actually healthier since unions act as a check on unlimited exec power. unions win benefits for both exempt and non-exempt employees. non unionized companies screw their workers like they're $2 whores. and the right, with their deep, abiding disgust at the very existence of the middle class, hates unions |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
wf3h wrote:
On Sep 26, 2:21 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock) @comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote : in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years. they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized Not over that 20 years they weren't. Unionization is quite a recent thing with IBM. The first alliance was in 1999. thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized companies in silicon valley have disappeared. Now, in recent history, in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200 in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in Raliegh, NC. In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and another 14,000 in August of the same year. Their was a mass termination at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). Half of the consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be let go. The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will have to pay for medical benefits. again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union. motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union plants that have disappeared. So much for increased benefits by being unionized. ;( really? so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant? oh. there aren't any thanks again for proving why unions are great. Your anecdotes prove nothing. There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. Or elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK. Semiconductor plants all across the US are closing because the plants age, require billions of dollars to renovate to be competitive, and so have been shut down in favor of using plants offshore. And just FYI, Silicon Valley is one hellaciously expensive place to live. Nobody in their right mind would try to build a new plant there. -- Cheers, Bama Brian Libertarian "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 27, 8:12*am, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote: On Sep 26, 2:21 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock) @comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote : in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years. they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized Not over that 20 years they weren't. *Unionization is quite a recent thing with IBM. *The first alliance was in 1999. thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized companies in silicon valley have disappeared. Now, in recent history, in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200 in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in Raliegh, NC. *In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and another 14,000 in August of the same year. *Their was a mass termination at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). *Half of the consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be let go. *The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will have to pay for medical benefits. * again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union. motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union plants that have disappeared. So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;( really? so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant? oh. there aren't any thanks again for proving why unions are great. Your anecdotes prove nothing. There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. *Or elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK. gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM? oh. you haven't. but you're an authority on the industry Semiconductor plants all across the US are closing because the plants age, require billions of dollars to renovate to be competitive, and so have been shut down in favor of using plants offshore. And just FYI, Silicon Valley is one hellaciously expensive place to live. *Nobody in their right mind would try to build a new plant there. agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death of the industry in the US |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 27, 12:55*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote : thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized companies in silicon valley have disappeared. Yep, IBM in the US has laid off over 10,000 employees while moving most of its semiconductor stuff overseas where the union is stronger. So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;( really? so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant? oh. there aren't any thanks again for proving why unions are great. Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. *They pop up virtually anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. *I have had experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit pay systems are much better. no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to do with it. you admit IBM is unionized...and still in the US, while the non unionized plants are gone and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if that's the case, where are the jobs? |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 27, 5:15*pm, Zombywoof wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:55:32 -0500, "RD (The Sandman)" Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. *They pop up virtually anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. *I have had experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit pay systems are much better. If you have merit, then yes. *If all you do is basically show up every day, then no. *All-in-all it is a mindset paradigm. * i love the rightwing mythology of 'merit' based employment. your boss thinks you're a threat to him? you're gone. smarter than he is? you're gone. more personality? you're gone. doesn't like your car? you're gone. this myth that the right wing proposes....companies employ on the basis of 'merit' is laughable. but i suppose it enables them to sleep at night, just like a little kid who has his security blanket and sucks his thumb It is one of the reasons that most public sector employees are perceived as not doing dick (The old 50 government workers & 50 Lesbians in one room joke). *Since excellence will not lead to a pay increase, promotion, or any other type of personal reward most do not bother. *In those organizations there is absolutely no reason to excel since excellence is not rewarded. and, i suppose, it's a reason why america is run by lawyers and accountants rather than people who work for a living by the way...how'd this myth of 'merit' work out for lehman brothers over the last year? |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On 9/27/09 6:49 PM, JustWait wrote:
Love to see the bottom line and benefits of the union "managers" during that period.. They are really no different than the corporate managers they scream about, only there to suck dollars off the backs of hard working men, so they don't have to... You've been jobless and sucking off the government teat for years... -- Birther-Deather-Tenther-Teabagger: Idiots All |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 27, 6:49*pm, JustWait wrote:
So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;( Love to see the bottom line and benefits of the union "managers" during that period.. They are really no different than the corporate managers they scream about, only there to suck dollars off the backs of hard working men, so they don't have to...- of course, they don't rape a 401K like the managers do. they don't ask for bailouts like managers do. they don't preach how god made them superior because they're rich like managers do. 'justwait' seems to think that if the rich steal from you, that's OK. god forbid the middle class even begin to question authority. that's just not permitted. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On 9/27/09 6:49 PM, JustWait wrote:
Love to see the bottom line and benefits of the union "managers" during that period.. They are really no different than the corporate managers they scream about, only there to suck dollars off the backs of hard working men, so they don't have to... So, Snotty, er, Scotty, how much did you inherit from you day's estate? Enough for you to maintain your status as a non-working guy? |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
H K wrote:
On 9/27/09 6:49 PM, JustWait wrote: Love to see the bottom line and benefits of the union "managers" during that period.. They are really no different than the corporate managers they scream about, only there to suck dollars off the backs of hard working men, so they don't have to... So, Snotty, er, Scotty, how much did you inherit from you day's estate? Enough for you to maintain your status as a non-working guy? His "day's estate", professional writer? What the hell is that? |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
wf3h wrote:
On Sep 27, 8:12 am, Bama Brian wrote: wf3h wrote: On Sep 26, 2:21 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock) @comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote : in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years. they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized Not over that 20 years they weren't. Unionization is quite a recent thing with IBM. The first alliance was in 1999. thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized companies in silicon valley have disappeared. Now, in recent history, in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200 in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in Raliegh, NC. In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and another 14,000 in August of the same year. Their was a mass termination at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). Half of the consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be let go. The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will have to pay for medical benefits. again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union. motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union plants that have disappeared. So much for increased benefits by being unionized. ;( really? so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant? oh. there aren't any thanks again for proving why unions are great. Your anecdotes prove nothing. There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. Or elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK. gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM? oh. you haven't. but you're an authority on the industry And you're a damned fool. Never insult a man unless you're sure you will survive the insult. It's why manners were invented. I've heard of IBM. I used to work for NEC in the Silicon Valley wafer fab facility and backend manufacturing. Also worked for National Semiconductor, Signetics/Phillips, Fujitsu, and a few others. They helped me retire early. Just for brags, here are a few jobs I worked at various companies: engineer, engineering manager, field applications engineer, field applications manager, development tools manager, business planning manager, director of marketing. In fact, I could say you're not even qualified to evaluate my resume. Now let's look at a partial list of who actually had unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley: Intel - No. National Semiconductor - No. NEC - No. (second plant was in Roseville, CA) Hitachi - No. Fujitsu - No. (plant was in OR) Cypress - No. AMD - No. Micron - No. (actually in Boise, ID) In fact, the unions never got so much as a toehold in Silicon Valley. Yet companies like AMD and Intel have survived and today are quite profitable. But they have had to restructure themselves literally every damned year. As to IBM, well, that company damn near shot itself to death twenty years back. Fortunately for it, its management learned early that they were NOT competitive in manufacturing - which is why they got out of the mainframe biz early, and why they quit the PC market even while it was still hot. As to their two chip plants, only the one in Fishkill has been renovated to be commercially viable. The other stays alive doing God knows what. Certainly they won't tell me, and I'm not inclined to do a white paper for you for free. Most, if not all, semi plants today survive by manufacturing for others as well as the parent company. Look up Globalfoundries and Taiwan Semiconductor for examples. Semiconductor plants all across the US are closing because the plants age, require billions of dollars to renovate to be competitive, and so have been shut down in favor of using plants offshore. And just FYI, Silicon Valley is one hellaciously expensive place to live. Nobody in their right mind would try to build a new plant there. agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death of the industry in the US Ask IBM why it could not sustain profitability with its major product lines, and why it had to close plants world-wide. But the industry is not dead; even if the plants are mostly all offshore today. I was surprised to see the AMD/Global plant being built in upstate NY. I could not see how Global could sustain profitability given the NY tax structure, so I checked and found that NY state is giving Global an 'assistance package' of $1.37 billion. That plant will need a complete renovation within ten years, or less. I wonder what Global and New York State will do then? -- Cheers, Bama Brian Libertarian "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 27, 11:17*pm, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote: There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. *Or elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK. gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM? oh. you *haven't. but you're an authority on the industry And you're a damned fool. *Never insult a man unless you're sure you will survive the insult. *It's why manners were invented. I've heard of IBM. *I used to work for NEC in the Silicon Valley wafer fab facility and backend manufacturing. *Also worked for National Semiconductor, yes, i've been there. i installed some of the wet cleaning benches used for cleaning devices. Signetics/Phillips was also at philips in san antonio... , Fujitsu, and a few others. *They helped me retire early. *Just for brags, here are a few jobs I worked at various companies: *engineer, engineering manager, field applications engineer, field applications manager, development tools manager, business planning manager, director of marketing. In fact, I could say you're not even qualified to evaluate my resume. again, you know zip about the industry, it seems Now let's look at a partial list of who actually had unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley: Intel - No. National Semiconductor - No. NEC - No. *(second plant was in Roseville, CA) Hitachi - No. Fujitsu - No. (plant was in OR) Cypress - No. AMD - No. Micron - No. (actually in Boise, ID) In fact, the unions never got so much as a toehold in Silicon Valley. exactly my point. those who claim unions destroyed these companies are wrong. even you admit that by pointing out the companies that have closed...NONE of which were unionized As to their two chip plants, only the one in Fishkill has been renovated to be commercially viable. *The other stays alive doing God knows what. * Certainly they won't tell me, and I'm not inclined to do a white paper for you for free. don't flatter yourself Most, if not all, semi plants today survive by manufacturing for others as well as the parent company. *Look up Globalfoundries and Taiwan Semiconductor for examples. charter was j ust purchased last week. yes, i'm familiar with the foundries. you seem surprised by teh economics of the industry...NONE of which is union related. i used to work for TI...they laid off their harvard/caltech/mit researchers and outsourced R and D to TSMC... oh. you don't know that 'cuz you still think everything's OK with the industry... agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death of the industry in the US Ask IBM why it could not sustain profitability with its major product lines, and why it had to close plants world-wide. But the industry is not dead; even if the plants are mostly all offshore today it's certainly dead in the US. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
H K wrote:
On 9/27/09 6:49 PM, JustWait wrote: Love to see the bottom line and benefits of the union "managers" during that period.. They are really no different than the corporate managers they scream about, only there to suck dollars off the backs of hard working men, so they don't have to... So, Snotty, er, Scotty, how much did you inherit from you day's estate? Enough for you to maintain your status as a non-working guy? Sort of, my Daddy taught me how to earn a living and work to get ahead or survive so now I don't need to work, unless I want to. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
In article , news1
@gmail22.com says... H K wrote: On 9/27/09 6:49 PM, JustWait wrote: Love to see the bottom line and benefits of the union "managers" during that period.. They are really no different than the corporate managers they scream about, only there to suck dollars off the backs of hard working men, so they don't have to... So, Snotty, er, Scotty, how much did you inherit from you day's estate? Enough for you to maintain your status as a non-working guy? His "day's estate", professional writer? What the hell is that? The rantings of a sick coward... Plonk him.. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
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Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 28, 11:02*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote in news:5fd30d3f-a0b3-4621-b9fc- : On Sep 26, 10:35*pm, Zombywoof wrote: I've been an Exempt Employee all my adult life and have been at two Companies while they went through the Unionization process. * and i've worked for both unionized and non unionized companies. unionized companies are healthier So have I and, no, they aren't necessarily healthier. not necessarily, but generally... In one Management was absolutely more then happy to see their workers unionize because it allowed them to dump a ****-load of personnel programs that weren't required by law, and costing them tons of money. \\ things like vacations...won by union workers? you ready to give up weekends and vacations? I had an excellent vacation plan. *No union. *I had merit pay. *No union. * guess where 'vacations' came from. you think you'd have a vacation without unions? merit pay? why not read what w. edwards deming said about 'performance reviews', etc.... I had mission pay when needed or was able to give to my employees. *No union. *We had open communication on salaries and how they were given. In the other management took what is more the normally perceived action and attempted to dissuade the workers from organizing. *Of course since they really can't prevent it they eventually develop and since there's no penalty for firing workers engaged in unionizing, that's what companies do. Au contraire, mon ami. *There are heavy penalties for doing that. *Say what you wish about unions but don't bull****. uh...no. what 'heavy penalties' are there? answer: none. no penalty at all, regardless of what the right wing says. the ONLY 'penalty' is that, after YEARS of expensive litigation, you have to hire the person back and give them back pay. wow. impressive. -- chuckle what i've seen is that unionized companies are actually healthier since unions act as a check on unlimited exec power. *unions win benefits for both exempt and non-exempt employees. While getting them screwed on other things. ah. 'other things'. that's kind of like 'they say'... non unionized companies screw their workers like they're $2 whores. Some did.....most didn't. *Of course, the unions did everything they could to convince employees that was true. *Looks like it worked with you. and you sucked down the management kool aid...you're just a bobble head doll for management and the right, with their deep, abiding disgust at the very existence of the middle class, hates unions So do most people who believe in individual accountability and pay and promotions via merit rather than longevity. fine. you go show me the data that companies actually hire and fire on 'merit'. as deming said 'in god we trust, all others bring data'. where's your data? so far all you've proven is that NON unionized semiconductor houses are gone. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
wf3h wrote in
: On Sep 27, 12:55*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock) @comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote innews:6517707f-a763-4394-ae23-bbb4cddf : thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized companies in silicon valley have disappeared. Yep, IBM in the US has laid off over 10,000 employees while moving most of its semiconductor stuff overseas where the union is stronger. So much for increased benefits by being unionized. *;( really? so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant? oh. there aren't any thanks again for proving why unions are great. Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. *They pop up virtuall y anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. *I have ha d experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit pay systems are much better. no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to do with it. you admit IBM is unionized...and still in the US, while the non unionized plants are gone That was a company choice....and not a good one. and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if that's the case, where are the jobs? If you were half as familiar with IBM as you insinuate, you would know what a loss that was. -- Sleep well tonight, RD (The Sandman) "Fear is the foundation of most governments." President John Adams |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
Zombywoof wrote in
: On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:55:32 -0500, "RD (The Sandman)" wrote: wf3h wrote in : On Sep 26, 2:21Â*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock) @comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote innews:58db059f-234f-44fc-bd7b-fe88428c : in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years. they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized Not over that 20 years they weren't. Â*Unionization is quite a recent thing with IBM. Â*The first alliance was in 1999. thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized companies in silicon valley have disappeared. Now, in recent history, in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY, 200 in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and 75 in Raliegh, NC. Â*In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of 2002 and another 14,000 in August of the same year. Â*Their was a mass terminatio n at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). Â*Half of the consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or be let go. Â*The IBM retirement package now requires that new retirees will have to pay for medical benefits. Â* again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley is closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union. motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union plants that have disappeared. Yep, IBM in the US has laid off over 10,000 employees while moving most of its semiconductor stuff overseas where the union is stronger. So much for increased benefits by being unionized. Â*;( really? so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant? oh. there aren't any thanks again for proving why unions are great. Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. They pop up virtually anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. I have had experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit pay systems are much better. If you have merit, then yes. If all you do is basically show up every day, then no. All-in-all it is a mindset paradigm. It is one of the reasons that most public sector employees are perceived as not doing dick (The old 50 government workers & 50 Lesbians in one room joke). Since excellence will not lead to a pay increase, promotion, or any other type of personal reward most do not bother. In those organizations there is absolutely no reason to excel since excellence is not rewarded. That is particularly true in union shops. -- Sleep well tonight, RD (The Sandman) "Fear is the foundation of most governments." President John Adams |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
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Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
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Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 28, 11:32*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote: wf3h wrote : no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to do with it. *you admit IBM is *unionized...and still in the US, while the non unionized plants are gone That was a company choice....and not a good one. oh. i see how this works. you claim unions destroy business. proof of that is 1. non unionized plants are closed 2. unionized plants are still in production but you think they shouldn't be because that disproves your view gee. an ironclad argument and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if that's the case, where are the jobs? If you were half as familiar with IBM as you insinuate, you would know what a loss that was. and if you knew logic, you'd see how ridiculous your position is -- Sleep well tonight, RD (The Sandman) "Fear is the foundation of most governments." President John Adams- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
On Sep 28, 11:33*am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote: Zombywoof wrote : It is one of the reasons that most public sector employees are perceived as not doing dick (The old 50 government workers & 50 Lesbians in one room joke). *Since excellence will not lead to a pay increase, promotion, or any other type of personal reward most do not bother. *In those organizations there is absolutely no reason to excel since excellence is not rewarded. That is particularly true in union shops. as opposed to the wonderful things wall street has done for the middle class over the last year. |
Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is full benefits for illegal aliens
Bama Brian wrote in news:h9p9rj$6j1$1
@news.eternal-september.org: As to IBM, well, that company damn near shot itself to death twenty years back. Fortunately for it, its management learned early that they were NOT competitive in manufacturing - which is why they got out of the mainframe biz early, and why they quit the PC market even while it was still hot. IBM got into trouble for many reasons. One was marketing.....sales reps felt they had to work just as hard to sell 10 PCs as they did to sell a 370 or a pair of AS400s. IBM confused the public with its PS2 marketing as the customer base associated it with a non standard proprietaty architecture (which it was) rather than the industry standard available in clones. OS2 (a much superior op system to DOS/Windows) was associated by marketing with PS2 so that folks didn't realize OS2 would also run on all clones. I am not sure what you mean by getting out of the mainframe biz early means. IBM WAS the mainframe industry until the 80s when they didn't properly respond to Sun and some others. They left UNIVAC and CDC in the dust. -- Sleep well tonight, RD (The Sandman) "Fear is the foundation of most governments." President John Adams |
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