Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

On Sep 28, 7:42*pm, Zombywoof wrote:
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:33:36 -0500, "RD (The Sandman)"





wrote:
Zombywoof wrote in
:

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:55:32 -0500, "RD (The Sandman)"
wrote:

wf3h wrote in
:

On Sep 26, 2:21Â*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote
innews:58db059f-234f-44fc-bd7b-fe88428c
:

in fact, i've done ALOT of work with IBM over the last 20 years.
they're one of the most inventive and competitive companies in the
world. and their semiconductor plants are unionized

Not over that 20 years they weren't. Â*Unionization is quite a
recent
thing with IBM. Â*The first alliance was in 1999.

thanks for proving my point. the semiconductor industry in the US has
collapsed. but IBM remains competitive due to its unionized workforce

i agree that unionization is a wonderful thing. the NON unionized
companies in silicon valley have disappeared.

Now, in recent history,
in 2001, IBM cut 500 workers in Burlington, VT, 400 in Endicott, NY,
200 in East Fishkill, 180 in Rochester, NY, 150 in Freemont, CA and
75 in Raliegh, NC. Â*In 2002, over 9,000 jobs were cut in June of
2002
and another 14,000 in August of the same year. Â*Their was a mass
terminatio
n
at Lotus Professional Services (which is owned by IBM). Â*Half of
the
consultants working there were told to find new jobs withing LPS or
be let go. Â*The IBM retirement package now requires that new
retirees
will have to pay for medical benefits. Â*

again, thanks for proving my point. national semi in silicon valley
is
closed. non union. phillips in san antonio is closed. non union.
motorola is closed. non union. again and again it's the NON union
plants that have disappeared.

Yep, IBM in the US has laid off over 10,000 employees while moving most
of its semiconductor stuff overseas where the union is stronger.

So much for increased benefits by being unionized. Â*;(

really?

so why don't you get a job with a non-unionized plant?

oh. there aren't any

thanks again for proving why unions are great.

Nope, just proving that unions are like a fungus. *They pop up
virtually
anywhere and will do whatever they have to to stay in power. *I have
had
experience in union shops and non union shop and, believe me, merit pay
systems are much better.

If you have merit, then yes. *If all you do is basically show up every
day, then no. *All-in-all it is a mindset paradigm. *

It is one of the reasons that most public sector employees are
perceived as not doing dick (The old 50 government workers & 50
Lesbians in one room joke). *Since excellence will not lead to a pay
increase, promotion, or any other type of personal reward most do not
bother. *In those organizations there is absolutely no reason to excel
since excellence is not rewarded.

That is particularly true in union shops.

Right you are. *The best you can hope for in a Union Shop is
longevity, even then that's a crap shoot at best come plant closing
time.
--

not as much of a crapshoot as it is with no union shop.

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

On Sep 28, 4:46*pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :



merit pay? why not read what w. edwards deming said about 'performance
reviews', etc....

I have.....have you?

guess i didn't tell you i used to work for western electric.

and i'll let you scratch your head trying to figure out the
relationship...like the little right winger you are

uh...no. what 'heavy penalties' are there?

In the company I was in, you are playing you bet your job.

answer: none. no penalty at all, regardless of what the right wing
says.

Who listens to the right wing? *

ronald reagan, george bush, dick cheney...


non unionized companies screw their workers like they're $2 whores.

Some did.....most didn't. *Of course, the unions did everything they
could to convince employees that was true. *Looks like it worked with
you.

and you sucked down the management kool aid...you're just a bobble
head doll for management

Perhaps, *but since I was there and you weren't........

you weren't anywhere


I was in one that did. *Too *bad you were a turkey in lieu of being an
eagle.

you're more like a dodo...on the way to extinction. frank lutz was
interviewed today...he said the US worker has lost faith in his
company and doesn't feel like his company respects him

and he's a republican

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

wf3h wrote:
On Sep 27, 11:17 pm, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:

There are NO unionized semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley. Or
elsewhere, for that matter, AFAIK.
gee. it's too bad you don't know the industry. ever hear of IBM?
oh. you haven't. but you're an authority on the industry
And you're a damned fool. Never insult a man unless you're sure you
will survive the insult. It's why manners were invented.

I've heard of IBM. I used to work for NEC in the Silicon Valley wafer
fab facility and backend manufacturing. Also worked for National
Semiconductor,

yes, i've been there. i installed some of the wet cleaning benches
used for cleaning devices.


Signetics/Phillips

was also at philips in san antonio...

, Fujitsu, and a few others. They
helped me retire early. Just for brags, here are a few jobs I worked at
various companies: engineer, engineering manager, field applications
engineer, field applications manager, development tools manager,
business planning manager, director of marketing.

In fact, I could say you're not even qualified to evaluate my resume.

again, you know zip about the industry, it seems

It is you who knows zip about the industry, Mr. "Service Engineer". I'd
put you on a par with the "Sanitation Engineers" who used to sweep the
floors. Or those so-called "Programming Engineers."

Now let's look at a partial list of who actually had unionized
semiconductor plants in Silicon Valley:
Intel - No.
National Semiconductor - No.
NEC - No. (second plant was in Roseville, CA)
Hitachi - No.
Fujitsu - No. (plant was in OR)
Cypress - No.
AMD - No.
Micron - No. (actually in Boise, ID)

In fact, the unions never got so much as a toehold in Silicon Valley.

exactly my point. those who claim unions destroyed these companies are
wrong. even you admit that by pointing out the companies that have
closed...NONE of which were unionized

Your original point was that unions were significant in keeping the
semiconductor companies alive. But from Silicon Valley perspective,
unions were nothing but a money sinkhole, sucking up money that could
better be used on R&D, capital equipment, or even salaries.


As to their two chip plants, only the one in Fishkill has been renovated
to be commercially viable. The other stays alive doing God knows what.
Certainly they won't tell me, and I'm not inclined to do a white paper
for you for free.

don't flatter yourself

I didn't have to. My pay check did. Besides, you're not competent to
evaluate the P&L of a wafer fab.


Most, if not all, semi plants today survive by manufacturing for others
as well as the parent company. Look up Globalfoundries and Taiwan
Semiconductor for examples.

charter was j ust purchased last week. yes, i'm familiar with the
foundries. you seem surprised by teh economics of the industry...NONE
of which is union related.

Globalfoundries is the name of a company; foundries is a generic term
for semiconductor fabrication plants. Do try to keep up.


i used to work for TI...they laid off their harvard/caltech/mit
researchers and outsourced R and D to TSMC...

But you weren't at that level, were you?


oh. you don't know that 'cuz you still think everything's OK with the
industry...
agreed. and since there were no unionized plants there, ever, and
there are few plants there today, unions had zip to do with the death
of the industry in the US
Ask IBM why it could not sustain profitability with its major product
lines, and why it had to close plants world-wide.

But the industry is not dead; even if the plants are mostly all offshore
today

it's certainly dead in the US.

Er, no. Not as much manufacturing as I'd like to see - but nowhere near
dead.

--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

wf3h wrote:
On Sep 28, 11:02 pm, "CalifBill" wrote:
"wf3h" wrote in message


you're more like a dodo...on the way to extinction. frank lutz was
interviewed today...he said the US worker has lost faith in his
company and doesn't feel like his company respects him

and he's a republican



I worked for Western Electric just out of high school.

hmmm...didn't know they hired people at the age of 45...

Only union I
belonged to. CWA. What a worthless group. They went on strike for 11
weeks before I went to work there. 11 weeks and the settled for what the
company offered in the first place. I was eligible for a 5 cent raise when
I left. To get any more money 253 people had to either quit or die for me
to get into the next pay grade. And I had excellent reviews.

and, of course, the company won 8 nobel prizes and invented modern
SQC...all with a unionized workforce



None of which came from the union workers.

--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

wf3h wrote:
On Sep 28, 11:32 am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :


no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and
virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to do
with it. you admit IBM is unionized...and still in the US, while the
non unionized plants are gone
That was a company choice....and not a good one.

oh. i see how this works. you claim unions destroy business. proof of
that is

1. non unionized plants are closed
2. unionized plants are still in production but you think they
shouldn't be because that disproves your view

gee. an ironclad argument

and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if that's
the case, where are the jobs?
If you were half as familiar with IBM as you insinuate, you would know
what a loss that was.

and if you knew logic, you'd see how ridiculous your position is

Argue this:

Times Union: A sweet IBM deal
http://cnse.albany.edu/News/index.cf...il&NewsID=1406

A sweet IBM deal that netted the company $1.6 billion of the taxpayer
dollars, and then:

BM layoffs reaching 3000, union group claims
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6632229.html

And then there are many, many, many of these that you can argue:

Toyota to Close Union Plant in California
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/business/28nummi.html

Union leaders fear Packard plant closing
http://www.vindy.com/news/2008/jul/2...plant-closing/

Peterbilt permanently closing Tennessee plant
"Peterbilt Motors Co. announced the permanent closure of its Madison
truck assembly plant, effective December 1.
The Madison plant had not built trucks since July 2008, when the company
and the United Auto Workers Local 1832 were unable to agree on a new
contract."
http://nashville.bizjournals.com/nas...28/daily7.html

Penske closing Albany plant, 81 jobs eliminated
http://albany.bizjournals.com/albany...1/daily49.html

Alcoa plant closing will cost 293 jobs in Beloit
http://albany.bizjournals.com/milwau...lant%20closing

Pratt And Whitney To Close Cheshire Plant
http://www.cheshireherald.com/node/1417

County says it fought to keep plant
http://www.yourdailyjournal.com/page...ws_left_column

So argue away, wf3h. Show us all how unions keep plants alive.


--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

"Fear is the foundation of most governments."

President John Adams- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

wf3h wrote:
On Sep 28, 4:48 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:

Perhaps.....but my experience is what I go on......perhaps when you get
some instead of chugging down union koolaid.......

--
\

says the guy who thinks alfred e. newman is the 2nd coming of
christ...because there's nothing wrong in the US since the rich are
doing so well, courtesy of a middle class bailout

Since you argue by Ad Hominem and think it's valid, it's no wonder your
big job was "wet bench installer".


--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

On Sep 29, 10:21 am, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:

In fact, I could say you're not even qualified to evaluate my resume.

again, you know zip about the industry, it seems

It is you who knows zip about the industry, Mr. "Service Engineer". I'd
put you on a par with the "Sanitation Engineers" who used to sweep the
floors. Or those so-called "Programming Engineers."

ROFLMAO!! you don't even know the difference between a field service
engineer and an applications engineer!

this is precious!

In fact, the unions never got so much as a toehold in Silicon Valley.

exactly my point. those who claim unions destroyed these companies are
wrong. even you admit that by pointing out the companies that have
closed...NONE of which were unionized

Your original point was that unions were significant in keeping the
semiconductor companies alive. But from Silicon Valley perspective,
unions were nothing but a money sinkhole, sucking up money that could
better be used on R&D, capital equipment, or even salaries.

and how'd that work out for silicon valley, keeping the unions out?
you yourself posted a list of closed plants...all non-union.

worked great, didnt it?


As to their two chip plants, only the one in Fishkill has been renovated
to be commercially viable. The other stays alive doing God knows what.
Certainly they won't tell me, and I'm not inclined to do a white paper
for you for free.

don't flatter yourself

I didn't have to. My pay check did. Besides, you're not competent to
evaluate the P&L of a wafer fab.

says the guy who doesn't know what an applications engineer is....




Most, if not all, semi plants today survive by manufacturing for others
as well as the parent company. Look up Globalfoundries and Taiwan
Semiconductor for examples.

charter was j ust purchased last week. yes, i'm familiar with the
foundries. you seem surprised by teh economics of the industry...NONE
of which is union related.

Globalfoundries is the name of a company; foundries is a generic term
for semiconductor fabrication plants. Do try to keep up.

i guess you forgot you wrote 'for example'...

short term memory going on you? that why you're right wing?





i used to work for TI...they laid off their harvard/caltech/mit
researchers and outsourced R and D to TSMC...

But you weren't at that level, were you?

nope i was not. but the point seems to have gone over your head. no
surprise.



But the industry is not dead; even if the plants are mostly all offshore
today

it's certainly dead in the US.

Er, no. Not as much manufacturing as I'd like to see - but nowhere near
dead.

really? short term memory problems again? forget about that list of
closed plants you posted?

how they doing?

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

On Sep 29, 10:58*am, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Sep 28, 4:48 pm, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:

Perhaps.....but my experience is what I go on......perhaps when you get
some instead of chugging down union koolaid.......

--
\

says the guy who thinks alfred e. newman is the 2nd coming of
christ...because there's nothing wrong in the US since the rich are
doing so well, courtesy of a middle class bailout

Since you argue by Ad Hominem and think it's valid, it's no wonder your
big job was "wet bench installer".

--

seems our resident expert on unions doesn't know what an engineer is.
no surprise. we work for a living

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

On Sep 29, 10:56*am, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Sep 28, 11:32 am, "RD (The Sandman)" rdsandman(spamlock)
@comcast.net wrote:
wf3h wrote :

no, they're no. since manufacturing has disappeared in the US and
virtually none of it was unionized, it's obvious unions had zip to do
with it. *you admit IBM is *unionized...and still in the US, while the
non unionized plants are gone
That was a company choice....and not a good one.

oh. i see how this works. you claim unions destroy business. proof of
that is

1. non unionized plants are closed
2. unionized plants are still in production but you think they
shouldn't be because that disproves your view

gee. an ironclad argument

and that, to you, proves non unionized plants protect jobs? if that's
the case, where are the jobs?
If you were half as familiar with IBM as you insinuate, you would know
what a loss that was.

and if you knew logic, you'd see how ridiculous your position is

Argue this:

Times Union: A sweet IBM dealhttp://cnse.albany.edu/News/index.cfm?step=show_detail&NewsID=1406

A sweet IBM deal that netted the company $1.6 billion of the taxpayer
dollars, and then:

BM layoffs reaching 3000, union group claimshttp://www.edn.com/article/CA6632229.html

And then there are many, many, many of these that you can argue:

Toyota to Close Union Plant in Californiahttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/business/28nummi.html

and yet you admit that all the silicon valley plants that closed were
non union

and that proves unions cause plants to close.

kind of like the guy who says whistling keeps polar bears away from
florida...when he's told that there are no polar bears in florida, he
says 'see how well it works!"



So argue away, wf3h. *Show us all how unions keep plants alive.


and show us how lack of unions causes them to thrive. go ahead. we'll
wait

Obama *DID* lie - the ultimate goal of the leftists is fullbenefits for illegal aliens
 

On Sep 29, 10:28*am, Bama Brian wrote:
wf3h wrote:


and, of course, the company won 8 nobel prizes and invented modern
SQC...all with a unionized workforce

None of which came from the union workers.

--

ROFLMAO!! your argument that all unionized companies are ineffective
doesn't seem to bear much scrutiny, does it?