Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

--Vic

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at that
point.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at that
point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be darned
near militant in telling everyone that global warming just isn't
happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

--Vic

While every one thinks of the Franklin expedition freezing to death
trapped in the Arctic Ice, transpolar trips are nothing new.

While archaeological records have not shown Norwegian Vikings reached
the Alaskan side of the northwest passage, it is known that they sailed
as far north and west as Ellesmere Island, Skraeling Island. This was
in the 10th and 11th century before the Little ice age that cause much
unrest in Europe.

One of the first trans Arctic trips was Larsen's trip in 1944, Larsen's
first transit took two seasons. The return trip was far more swift than
his first; the 28 months he took on his first trip was significantly
reduced, setting the mark for having traversed it in a single season

On July 1, 1957, the United States Coast Guard cutter Storis departed in
company with U.S. Coast Guard cutters Bramble (WLB-392) and SPAR
(WLB-403) to search for a deep draft channel through the Arctic Ocean
and to collect hydrographic information. Upon her return to Greenland
waters, the Storis became the first U.S.-registered vessel to
circumnavigate North America. Shortly after her return in late 1957, she
was reassigned to her new home port of Kodiak, Alaska.

If you read the history of Arctic exploration you will find the some
years everything is frozen and you can not get as ship into the region.
Now as it was 60 years ago and nearly 1000 years ago it may be possible
to transverse the Arctic by ship.

Global weather changes are cyclic, and the cycles have been occurring
long before puny man appeared on the face of the earth and will continue
long after he disappears. We are in one of the cycles,and long term
temperature information shows we should be more worried about the return
of the ice ages rather than global warming.

There is a lot of good information on the climate coming out of the
Archaeological exploration of human activity in the ice age settlements
in the English channel

There are many other sources of information on Arctic Exploration but
you can start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Passage

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be darned
near militant in telling everyone that global warming just isn't
happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.



Can you see Russia from there?

--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be darned
near militant in telling everyone that global warming just isn't
happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

I wonder how we are having so many below average temperature days this
year? They are even calling this the year without summer in New England.

Can you tell me why we had the Medival Warming Period? Why did it occur?
What made it stop?

What caused the last ice age? What caused the glaciers across the
northern hemisphere to recede?

If global warming exists the solution is not Cap and Trade. The solution
is not light bulbs full of hazardous materials that cannot be thrown
away in a landfill.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the last
600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global warming of
the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

H the K wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.



Can you see Russia from there?


Can you see Cuba?

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

NOAA's data is based upon faulty measurements and only goes back a
couple of decades.


http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the last
600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global warming of
the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

Which means absolutely nothing. When you look at the Earth you have to
look using a time scale of geologic proportions. Six hundred and twelve
hundred years don't constitute data points.

What caused the glaciers to recede at the end of the last ice age?

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

NOAA's data is based upon faulty measurements and only goes back a
couple of decades.


http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

Which means absolutely nothing. When you look at the Earth you have to
look using a time scale of geologic proportions. Six hundred and twelve
hundred years don't constitute data points.

Of course they do! If they didn't, then there would be no data points.
It may be your OPINION that they don't, but mathematically they do.

What caused the glaciers to recede at the end of the last ice age?

Temperatures above freezing.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at that
point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be darned
near militant in telling everyone that global warming just isn't
happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and paleotemperature
proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed significantly over the
last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality. Multiple paleoclimatic
studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s, and the 20th century are
all the warmest, on a global basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200
years. It appears that the global warming of the last century is
unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth has
heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the last Ice
Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago? And the
warming afterwards?

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when
the republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to
be darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming
just isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

NOAA's data is based upon faulty measurements and only goes back a
couple of decades.


http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

Which means absolutely nothing. When you look at the Earth you have to
look using a time scale of geologic proportions. Six hundred and
twelve hundred years don't constitute data points.

Of course they do! If they didn't, then there would be no data points.
It may be your OPINION that they don't, but mathematically they do.

What caused the glaciers to recede at the end of the last ice age?

Temperatures above freezing.

Just as I thought. You don't want to discuss what caused the glaciers to
melt? Why? Because it doesn't fit into the script of humans are bad and
are killing the earth.

Cherry picking the most recent 200 years, 1000 years and using that as
the basis for a theory is laughable. The Earth has been covered in ice
before and the poles have seen tropical weather.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

BAR wrote:
H the K wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.



Can you see Russia from there?


Can you see Cuba?


Maybe Bermuda...

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at that
point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be darned
near militant in telling everyone that global warming just isn't
happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and paleotemperature
proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed significantly over the
last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality. Multiple paleoclimatic
studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s, and the 20th century are
all the warmest, on a global basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200
years. It appears that the global warming of the last century is
unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth has
heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the last Ice
Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago? And the
warming afterwards?



It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon
at that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when
the republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to
be darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming
just isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

NOAA's data is based upon faulty measurements and only goes back a
couple of decades.


http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the
1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis,
of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the
global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.

Which means absolutely nothing. When you look at the Earth you have
to look using a time scale of geologic proportions. Six hundred and
twelve hundred years don't constitute data points.

Of course they do! If they didn't, then there would be no data points.
It may be your OPINION that they don't, but mathematically they do.

What caused the glaciers to recede at the end of the last ice age?

Temperatures above freezing.

Just as I thought. You don't want to discuss what caused the glaciers to
melt? Why? Because it doesn't fit into the script of humans are bad and
are killing the earth.


Because it's irrelevant to what is happening NOW.

Cherry picking the most recent 200 years, 1000 years and using that as
the basis for a theory is laughable. The Earth has been covered in ice
before and the poles have seen tropical weather.

What is laughable is that as the right's talking point on the subject,
they always bring up what has happened 50,000 or so years ago. It
doesn't take someone real brilliant to look at a chart that clearly
shows a rise in temperature coinciding with a gain in air pollutants
coinciding with the industrial revolution.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message


When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?


It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Don't confuse him with the facts. He has decided that puny man is
responsible for global warming and nothing with change his mind.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.

You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon
at that point.

I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when
the republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to
be darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming
just isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?

Where is the peer reviewed data.


http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

NOAA's data is based upon faulty measurements and only goes back a
couple of decades.


http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has
warmed significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a
reality. Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years,
the 1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global
basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that
the global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.

Which means absolutely nothing. When you look at the Earth you have
to look using a time scale of geologic proportions. Six hundred and
twelve hundred years don't constitute data points.

Of course they do! If they didn't, then there would be no data
points. It may be your OPINION that they don't, but mathematically
they do.

What caused the glaciers to recede at the end of the last ice age?

Temperatures above freezing.

Just as I thought. You don't want to discuss what caused the glaciers
to melt? Why? Because it doesn't fit into the script of humans are bad
and are killing the earth.


Because it's irrelevant to what is happening NOW.

Cherry picking the most recent 200 years, 1000 years and using that as
the basis for a theory is laughable. The Earth has been covered in ice
before and the poles have seen tropical weather.

What is laughable is that as the right's talking point on the subject,
they always bring up what has happened 50,000 or so years ago. It
doesn't take someone real brilliant to look at a chart that clearly
shows a rise in temperature coinciding with a gain in air pollutants
coinciding with the industrial revolution.

If they looked at the charts, they would see that the temperature has
been warming long before man appeared and we are at a temperature peak
in the long term temperature curves, and ready to descend into the next
ice age.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture07158.html

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with
a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the last
600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global warming of
the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.

The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?

It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's insistence
that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me. You
would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy with
a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the last
600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global warming of
the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's insistence
that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me. You
would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.



Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:


When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has
warmed significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a
reality. Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years,
the 1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global
basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that
the global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.


Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:


When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has
warmed significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a
reality. Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent
years, the 1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a
global basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It
appears that the global warming of the last century is
unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age
500 years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the
past. We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the
right's insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.


Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.

Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:


When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the
1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis,
of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the
global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.


Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

Global warming was occuring. Average Temps have gone down the last 9 years.
Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact that global
warming is man caused. Average temperature on Mars has changed in line with
Earths temperature variations. The problem is that unmitigated,
researchable data has not proved man is the cause of temperature variations.
And we want to decimate the economy and people's lives for reasons that are
dreck.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:



If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

There is some data showing regional warming. There is some data showing
regional cooling. We have been collecting data on the weather for a
little more than two hundred years. Probably half of this time with
imprecise equipment and poor sampling techniques. The first half of this
database has a very limited scope in relation to the total surface area
of the earth. There are still large area of the surface of the earth
(water and land) that have no data history for the temperature.

Based on this small sampling of data there are some privative computer
models that have been developed that based on this small data pool
project the numbers forward and show a warming trend. However they did
not predict the cooling that has been experienced in the current
century. They can not accurately predict the weather from day to day.
(We have record high temperatures in the western US and record low highs
in the Midwestern US. In fact because of these low temperature we may
see increases in alcohol (gasoline), and various foods because of low
yields.)

If you get passed the politics and look at the data being generated,
there are signs that the world is warming, but there are also signs that
it is cooling. The ice on one side of the antarctic has been decreasing
BUT the ice on the other side has been increasing. The current that
comes out of the Arctic down the west side of Greenland is colder and
stronger after weakening in the late 1900's

Archeology, paleontology and other long term sciences have shown that
global warming is a cyclic phenomena, with cycles 100000 years or more
in length. There are too many variables, and the cycles too long, to
make any accurate prediction from the limited data set we currently
have. There is definitely too little data available to start trying to
modify the weather when we don't know all of the variables that control
it. (If we do something wrong we could make a bad situation worse.) It
is absolutely too early to start throwing trillions of dollars at a
situation that is not known nor understood.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:27:07 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

"Scott Highleyman and Marilyn Heiman are, respectively, the
international and American directors of the Arctic Program at the Pew
Environment Group."

What a shocker.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.



The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:



If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades'
temperatures, don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to
compare today's temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

There is some data showing regional warming. There is some data showing
regional cooling. We have been collecting data on the weather for a
little more than two hundred years. Probably half of this time with
imprecise equipment and poor sampling techniques. The first half of this
database has a very limited scope in relation to the total surface area
of the earth. There are still large area of the surface of the earth
(water and land) that have no data history for the temperature.

Based on this small sampling of data there are some privative computer
models that have been developed that based on this small data pool
project the numbers forward and show a warming trend. However they did
not predict the cooling that has been experienced in the current
century. They can not accurately predict the weather from day to day.
(We have record high temperatures in the western US and record low highs
in the Midwestern US. In fact because of these low temperature we may
see increases in alcohol (gasoline), and various foods because of low
yields.)

If you get passed the politics and look at the data being generated,
there are signs that the world is warming, but there are also signs that
it is cooling. The ice on one side of the antarctic has been decreasing
BUT the ice on the other side has been increasing. The current that
comes out of the Arctic down the west side of Greenland is colder and
stronger after weakening in the late 1900's

Archeology, paleontology and other long term sciences have shown that
global warming is a cyclic phenomena, with cycles 100000 years or more
in length. There are too many variables, and the cycles too long, to
make any accurate prediction from the limited data set we currently
have. There is definitely too little data available to start trying to
modify the weather when we don't know all of the variables that control
it. (If we do something wrong we could make a bad situation worse.) It
is absolutely too early to start throwing trillions of dollars at a
situation that is not known nor understood.

I fully understand that there is a cyclic element to the problem. BUT,
you can not deny data that shows that air pollution has corresponded
perfectly with the warming trend that we are now seeing. That has only
occurred before with super volcano events. Anyone who just shoves good
data under the rug because it doesn't meet their current ideology just
isn't very good at science.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the
1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis,
of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the
global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.

Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.
If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing
Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

Global warming was occuring. Average Temps have gone down the last 9 years.
Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact that global
warming is man caused. Average temperature on Mars has changed in line with
Earths temperature variations. The problem is that unmitigated,
researchable data has not proved man is the cause of temperature variations.
And we want to decimate the economy and people's lives for reasons that are
dreck.



Your statement that average temperatures on the earth have gone down in
the last 9 years is rubbish.

Look:
http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/0...st-2000-years/

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon
at that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when
the republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to
be darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming
just isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the
1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis,
of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the
global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.

The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem, not
problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history does
not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped the
climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on climate
that is occuring right now?

It is the sun spots, etc that matter. Not the couple of extreme events.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:45:33 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.



The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?

If history doesn't matter, why look back 140 years?

Or, why use Bush as an excuse for everything Obama does?
--

John H

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:



If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades'
temperatures, don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to
compare today's temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a
fact that global warming isn't occurring.

There is some data showing regional warming. There is some data
showing regional cooling. We have been collecting data on the weather
for a little more than two hundred years. Probably half of this time
with imprecise equipment and poor sampling techniques. The first half
of this database has a very limited scope in relation to the total
surface area of the earth. There are still large area of the surface
of the earth (water and land) that have no data history for the
temperature.

Based on this small sampling of data there are some privative computer
models that have been developed that based on this small data pool
project the numbers forward and show a warming trend. However they
did not predict the cooling that has been experienced in the current
century. They can not accurately predict the weather from day to day.
(We have record high temperatures in the western US and record low
highs in the Midwestern US. In fact because of these low temperature
we may see increases in alcohol (gasoline), and various foods because
of low yields.)

If you get passed the politics and look at the data being generated,
there are signs that the world is warming, but there are also signs
that it is cooling. The ice on one side of the antarctic has been
decreasing BUT the ice on the other side has been increasing. The
current that comes out of the Arctic down the west side of Greenland
is colder and stronger after weakening in the late 1900's

Archeology, paleontology and other long term sciences have shown that
global warming is a cyclic phenomena, with cycles 100000 years or more
in length. There are too many variables, and the cycles too long, to
make any accurate prediction from the limited data set we currently
have. There is definitely too little data available to start trying
to modify the weather when we don't know all of the variables that
control it. (If we do something wrong we could make a bad situation
worse.) It is absolutely too early to start throwing trillions of
dollars at a situation that is not known nor understood.

I fully understand that there is a cyclic element to the problem. BUT,
you can not deny data that shows that air pollution has corresponded
perfectly with the warming trend that we are now seeing. That has only
occurred before with super volcano events. Anyone who just shoves good
data under the rug because it doesn't meet their current ideology just
isn't very good at science.


Global warming also corresponds to the growth in the feminist movement,
the development of the computer industry, the growth in the Latino
population of the US, and several other non related phenomena.

I will stick with my original statement, there just is not sufficient
data to predict long range climate trends. As a scientist all data is
valid whether if fits you preconceived notions or not.

I have been involved in to many experiments where the final conclusion
was not what was indicated by the initial trend in a few data points.
In most of these cases, when the absolute variation in the data was know
the trend in the initial data was shown to be random variance.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 16:10:13 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:



If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades'
temperatures, don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to
compare today's temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a
fact that global warming isn't occurring.

There is some data showing regional warming. There is some data
showing regional cooling. We have been collecting data on the weather
for a little more than two hundred years. Probably half of this time
with imprecise equipment and poor sampling techniques. The first half
of this database has a very limited scope in relation to the total
surface area of the earth. There are still large area of the surface
of the earth (water and land) that have no data history for the
temperature.

Based on this small sampling of data there are some privative computer
models that have been developed that based on this small data pool
project the numbers forward and show a warming trend. However they
did not predict the cooling that has been experienced in the current
century. They can not accurately predict the weather from day to day.
(We have record high temperatures in the western US and record low
highs in the Midwestern US. In fact because of these low temperature
we may see increases in alcohol (gasoline), and various foods because
of low yields.)

If you get passed the politics and look at the data being generated,
there are signs that the world is warming, but there are also signs
that it is cooling. The ice on one side of the antarctic has been
decreasing BUT the ice on the other side has been increasing. The
current that comes out of the Arctic down the west side of Greenland
is colder and stronger after weakening in the late 1900's

Archeology, paleontology and other long term sciences have shown that
global warming is a cyclic phenomena, with cycles 100000 years or more
in length. There are too many variables, and the cycles too long, to
make any accurate prediction from the limited data set we currently
have. There is definitely too little data available to start trying
to modify the weather when we don't know all of the variables that
control it. (If we do something wrong we could make a bad situation
worse.) It is absolutely too early to start throwing trillions of
dollars at a situation that is not known nor understood.

I fully understand that there is a cyclic element to the problem. BUT,
you can not deny data that shows that air pollution has corresponded
perfectly with the warming trend that we are now seeing. That has only
occurred before with super volcano events. Anyone who just shoves good
data under the rug because it doesn't meet their current ideology just
isn't very good at science.


Global warming also corresponds to the growth in the feminist movement,
the development of the computer industry, the growth in the Latino
population of the US, and several other non related phenomena.

I will stick with my original statement, there just is not sufficient
data to predict long range climate trends. As a scientist all data is
valid whether if fits you preconceived notions or not.

I have been involved in to many experiments where the final conclusion
was not what was indicated by the initial trend in a few data points.
In most of these cases, when the absolute variation in the data was know
the trend in the initial data was shown to be random variance.

It's also true that the number of births by unwed mothers in DC has
increased along with the increases in pay given to high school
teachers in Atlanta, GA.

That's an important one.
--

John H

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a
guy with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band
wagon at that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free"
when the republican politicians are forcing everyone in their
party to be darned near militant in telling everyone that
global warming just isn't happening despite all of the data
proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has
warmed significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a
reality. Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent
years, the 1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a
global basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It
appears that the global warming of the last century is
unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age
500 years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the
past. We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the
right's insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing
to codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because
of history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.


The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?

What effect did Mount Pinatubo's eruption have on the Earth's atmosphere?

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

John Again wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:45:33 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.
Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.


The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?

If history doesn't matter, why look back 140 years?

WHOOSH!

Or, why use Bush as an excuse for everything Obama does?
--

The same reason why Clinton is an excuse for everything Bush does!

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 08:34:04 -0400, NotNow wrote:

John Again wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:45:33 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.
Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.


The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?

If history doesn't matter, why look back 140 years?

WHOOSH!

Or, why use Bush as an excuse for everything Obama does?
--

The same reason why Clinton is an excuse for everything Bush does!

Bush doesn't do.

Obama does.

Using Bush as the justification for Obama's actions doesn't say much
for Obama, does it?
--

John H

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Drifting John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 08:34:04 -0400, NotNow wrote:

John Again wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:45:33 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.
Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.


The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?
If history doesn't matter, why look back 140 years?
WHOOSH!
Or, why use Bush as an excuse for everything Obama does?
--

The same reason why Clinton is an excuse for everything Bush does!

Bush doesn't do.

Obama does.

Using Bush as the justification for Obama's actions doesn't say much
for Obama, does it?
--

John H
As usual.
Anything liberal = lying, blaming, nothing good everything bad
Anything conservative = complete honesty, never blaming, everything
wonderful.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 11:26:47 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Drifting John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 08:34:04 -0400, NotNow wrote:

John Again wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:45:33 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.
Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.


The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?
If history doesn't matter, why look back 140 years?
WHOOSH!
Or, why use Bush as an excuse for everything Obama does?
--

The same reason why Clinton is an excuse for everything Bush does!

Bush doesn't do.

Obama does.

Using Bush as the justification for Obama's actions doesn't say much
for Obama, does it?
--

John H
As usual.
Anything liberal = lying, blaming, nothing good everything bad
Anything conservative = complete honesty, never blaming, everything
wonderful.

From where came that?

My comment had to do with the use of Bush as a rationale for Obama's
behavior.
--

John H

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

Drifting John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 11:26:47 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Drifting John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 08:34:04 -0400, NotNow wrote:

John Again wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:45:33 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.
Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.


The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?
If history doesn't matter, why look back 140 years?
WHOOSH!
Or, why use Bush as an excuse for everything Obama does?
--

The same reason why Clinton is an excuse for everything Bush does!
Bush doesn't do.

Obama does.

Using Bush as the justification for Obama's actions doesn't say much
for Obama, does it?
--

John H
As usual.
Anything liberal = lying, blaming, nothing good everything bad
Anything conservative = complete honesty, never blaming, everything
wonderful.

From where came that?

My comment had to do with the use of Bush as a rationale for Obama's
behavior.
--

John H

It's impossible to rationalize Oh-Bah-Mah's behavior.

Northwest Passage Open for Business
 

On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:07:40 -0400, "it's me, Jim" "j i
wrote:

Drifting John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 11:26:47 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Drifting John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 08:34:04 -0400, NotNow wrote:

John Again wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:45:33 -0400, NotNow wrote:

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.
Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.


The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?
If history doesn't matter, why look back 140 years?
WHOOSH!
Or, why use Bush as an excuse for everything Obama does?
--

The same reason why Clinton is an excuse for everything Bush does!
Bush doesn't do.

Obama does.

Using Bush as the justification for Obama's actions doesn't say much
for Obama, does it?
--

John H
As usual.
Anything liberal = lying, blaming, nothing good everything bad
Anything conservative = complete honesty, never blaming, everything
wonderful.

From where came that?

My comment had to do with the use of Bush as a rationale for Obama's
behavior.
--

John H

It's impossible to rationalize Oh-Bah-Mah's behavior.

True. But the liberal fall back is to compare to Bush. Can't figure
out why they don't just discuss his behavior as is.

Embarrassed?
--

John H