On Aug 2, 11:17*am, "Cricket" wrote:
"Wilko" wrote in message

...





Cricket wrote:
"jaybird" wrote in message
....
Tim you have cured me of ever reading this newsgroup again. *You are
pathetic. *Your right to free speech will now go unheard. *I wish I
could think of something kind to say but I will just sign off forever
and leave you to your padded cell.

jaybird

You could just put him on ignore like everybody else does...

Cricket

Exactly: that's by far the best option! No attention, no audience and
despite this group being pretty dead anyway, you can then concentrate on
communication with those people that still hang out here who *are* worth
the effort.

--
Wilko van den Bergh * * * * * * * * * * * * *wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
* * Eindhoven * * * * The Netherlands * * * * * *Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

You know the ironic thing - *I* don't have him on ignore...sometimes he's
funny, in a sad sort of way, so occasionally if I'm really bored I'll read
something he posted...otherwise I ignore by just not clicking on his posts.

Did get out and check out our local "paddle up a ways for something to do"
river - this past spring's floods knocked out a bunch of log jams and gave
us a good little evening cruise up and back (did I mention it's small and
slow?)

Found the niche for my little cheapo Heritage Featherlite that I picked up
on Craig's list as a loaner boat - on that tight little creek with all the
logs, it skims right over and around like a real boat! *;) *I think I'll
retire the Loon from that sort of duty and leave it for it's big open
overnighter type original purpose.

Cricket- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The rec.boats.paddle posters took money from the American Canoe
Association, the major lobby group that killed over 200 American
children: Agonizing deaths like terminal waterboarding. American
children, American soil. Today we have mainstream American media
reporting that nearly 50 per cent of Republicans believe President
Obama is not American, despite a law passed this week in Hawaii
confirming his legal status.

American citizens still die with no single payer health care like the
major countries in the world with the most cost effective health care
(Germany, Canada etc.) Educated people know that single payer health
care has the best care for least cost, due to economies of scale.
Rec.boats.paddle used the GOP strategy of fear to attack sponsons,
just as American health care is now attacked.


The Bush Cheney years were particularly helpful to deny the American
public 50 cent sponsons to get out of the water in 5
seconds. Without sponsons, no judge or jury can get out of the water
to save themselves. Go ahead, test a court with rolling, paddle
floating, canoe over canoe, capistrano flip, paddle a flooded canoe
or
kayak to shore. The judge, jury and the grieving families will not be
amused by these ludicrous ideas called "rescues":
http://www.sponsonguy.com


Rec.boats.paddle today has a few posters who stupidly trot out their
perfidy from time to time, contradicting their own words, as we see
recently. This is a similar response to poor whites in the South
fighting for the Civil War to keep an underclass of slaves so their
own miserable existences were more bearable, if only in comparison.
This is the American political dynamic in a nutshell, essentially The
Sponson Story, in which the most obvious, patented, 50 cent sponsons,
in 5 seconds transform any canoe or kayak into a rescue craft; as
used
by some Coast Guard SAR teams.


My patents are well known to Homeland Security, USCG Admiral Hathaway
(see his letter on "FBI Public Safety Arrests" http://www.sponsonguy.com),
and almost everyone who knows what a canoe or kayak is.


The interesting part is that Americans are generally denied knowledge
of Sponsons, just like health care that most other citizens in the
world enjoy in developed countries; just like a white underclass
wanted slavery to feel better about their own miserable lives.


On rec.boats.paddle this "slavery" dynamic (preventing effective
canoe
and kayak lifesaving by use of dozens of Crazy "Rescues" that don't
work to save human life), has translated into the mass murder of over
1,500 Americans and hundreds of American children, documented by the
US Coast Guard database (BARD). These posters and the American Canoe
Association actually feel they are superior to the dead children who
did not have their "ACA judgment and skills", that in fact are
completely bogus, fraudulent.


See the pictures of 2 ten year old girls saving themselves (and any
other swimmers) in 5 seconds without any instruction or practice:
http://www.sponsonguy.com


No wonder the cowards on rec.boats.paddle are keeping their heads
down
these days!


Tim

TimIngram wrote:
snip
to save themselves. Go ahead, test a court with rolling, paddle
floating, canoe over canoe, capistrano flip, paddle a floooded canoe
or kayak to shore. The depth of perfidy of your canoe and kayak death
snip

That's funny, I just came back from a few weeks at scout camp and every week
on what's called 'Wet Wednesday', hundreds of kids tip over their canoe and
do canoe over canoe rescues and climb back in... it's a requirement for
canoeing merit badge... hundreds, perhaps thousands per week did it all
summer long to earn the merit badge at the camp I was at (and I'm sure the
same is true for countless other camps for Boy and Girl Scouts across the
world)...

snip

Also, I've been on a jury and I can get back in a canoe after being flung
into the water (although the last time I did it was at an ACA Canoe instructor
class I took...

These are some of the things the kids do...
e. In deep water, exit the canoe and get back in without capsizing.
f. Capsize the canoe and demonstrate how staying with a capsized canoe
will support both paddlers.
g. Swim, tow, or push a swamped canoe 50 feet to shallow water. In the
shallow water, empty the swamped canoe and reenter it.
h. In deep water, rescue a swamped canoe and its paddlers by emptying the
swamped canoe and helping the paddlers safely reenter their boat
without capsizing.


--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

TimIngram wrote:

snip

The rec.boats.paddle posters took money from the American Canoe
Association snip

Prove it!

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

"Chicago Paddling-Fishing" wrote in message
...
TimIngram wrote:

snip

The rec.boats.paddle posters took money from the American Canoe
Association snip

Prove it!

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

The hell with prove it - I *want* some...

Cricket

On Aug 5, 1:50*pm, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
TimIngram wrote:

snipto save themselves. Go ahead, test a court with rolling, paddle
floating, canoe over canoe, capistrano flip, paddle a floooded canoe
or kayak to shore. The depth of perfidy of your canoe and kayak death

snip

That's funny, I just came back from a few weeks at scout camp and every week
on what's called 'Wet Wednesday', hundreds of kids tip over their canoe and
do canoe over canoe rescues and climb back in... it's a requirement for
canoeing merit badge... hundreds, perhaps thousands per week did it all
summer long to earn the merit badge at the camp I was at (and I'm sure the
same is true for countless other camps for Boy and Girl Scouts across the
world)...

snip

Also, I've been on a jury and I can get back in a canoe after being flung
into the water (although the last time I did it was at an ACA Canoe instructor
class I took...

These are some of the things the kids do...
* * e. In deep water, exit the canoe and get back in without capsizing.
* * f. Capsize the canoe and demonstrate how staying with a capsized canoe
* * * *will support both paddlers.
* * g. Swim, tow, or push a swamped canoe 50 feet to shallow water. In the
* * * *shallow water, empty the swamped canoe and reenter it.
* * h. In deep water, rescue a swamped canoe and its paddlers by emptying the
* * * *swamped canoe and helping the paddlers safely reenter their boat
* * * *without capsizing.

--
John Nelson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*--
* * * * * * * * * * * Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
* * * *http://www.chicagopaddling.org*http:...gofishing..org
*(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

You are disingenuous and deadly to kids. American Canoe Association
Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the 2005 book "Expedition
Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue touted by the Red Cross
and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to perform in a running sea.
Far better to forget about the swamped canoe and gear and put your
efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.):

Famous Canadian canoeist and film-maker Bill Mason, reversed his
traditional rescue ideas after the dead schoolchildren (12) in the
1978 Lake Temiskaming tragedy, stating that these rescues simply
cannot work, in his last book: "canoe over canoe...I have since
changed my mind..." (Song of the Paddle,1988, p.126). Mr. Mason
advocated extra interior flotation in this book instead, but died
suddenly of stomach cancer just before the first sponson patent became
known. C.E.S. Franks reached Bill Mason's conclusion just before
Temiskaming, in The Canoe and White Water, University of Toronto
Press, 1977, p.123: "...nearly useless...On a stormy lake where upsets
are likely to occur, the water is often too rough and choppy." Note:
American Canoe Association Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the
2005 book "Expedition Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue
touted by the Red Cross and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to
perform in a running sea. Far better to forget about the swamped canoe
and gear and put your efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.)
However, in Deep Waters, James Raffan notes that Jacobson's idea
merely capsized more canoes, killing 12 boys and one leader, Ontario's
Lake Temiskaming, 1978.
See page 108 of "Deep Waters": "Somewhere in the middle of the lake,
about two miles from shore and too far from the camp to be seen with
the naked eye, the canoe upset. Whether this was from a sudden gust of
wind on an otherwise calm summer evening, or from a novice paddler
"catching a crab" (a paddle) on the water and shifting position, is
not clear, although there was a tendency for some newspaper writers
(as there would be with Timiskaming fifty years later) to concoct a
violent storm to overturn the canoe. There was likely no storm. In any
case the big canoe upset. It had no air tanks, sponsons, or flotation
chambers,..."

Dillon published her book in 2008 anyway. Oyen and Dillon are
deliberately wanton and reckless with regard to human life, despite
the above book comment by even their own ACA Hall of Fame member Cliff
Jacobson!

Please note: with sponsons, more water inside creates more weight and
therefore more stability. See this stability below in "awashed" U.S.
Military kayaks: US Military Special Forces, 10th Airbourne, Fort
Devens, MA, 200 mile ocean kayak race, the coast of Maine, between
Military Kayaking Teams from about 12 NATO countries:
"basic, no nonsense...dramatically increase...safety
and...capabilities... It should be noted that within the North
American civilian sea kayak industry there is some controversy...Sea
Wings' direct competition with...the paddle float...the merits of Sea
Wings...far outweigh those of the paddlefloat...During the IMKP 1994
we used Sea Wings with all our rescue boats as back-up flotation/
stability for awashed kayaks needing assistance pumping out in heavy
seas. In addition, IMKP's rescue kayak was fitted with Sea Wings on a
permanent basis which allowed us to be far more stable in possible
rescue operations...Sea Wings dramatically increase re-entry
operations with capsized boats. Indeed, even with heavily loaded boats
(those approaching 1000 lbs.) most paddlers can easily re-enter the
kayak. However the most notable advantage of Sea Wings is with lightly
loaded boats; ie, those kayaks which are far less stable (more tippy)
than fully loaded boats. Recovery operations are far more difficult in
these boats and most students have extreme difficulty in mastering the
necessary techniques. This is compounded in heavy seas. Sea Wings
offers an almost guaranteed method of re-entering a lightly loaded
kayak even in heavy seas. Stability increase in heavy seas. Paddling
in extremely heavy seas is difficult. Sea Wings offer the crews an
additional method of dealing with such sea states. One of the most
dangerous situations a detachment can find itself in is that of towing
a disabled crew with full operational loads in heavy seas at night.
The employment of Sea Wings dramatically increases the safety margin.
In my opinion, this is one of the sponsons' most important
contributions to MAROPS... As an historical footnote it should be
noted that circumpolar kayakers (Greenlanders and Inuit) employed a
similar sponson/ float for stability. It differed significantly though
from Sea Wings in that it was free floating; i.e., there was
apparently no harness system and stability came from pushing down on
the float on the side of the kayak. In addition, during the late 70's
and early 80's we employed a similar system with our commo boats.
Waterproof bags were blown up and hand held to the sides of the kayak
while communication was conducted. The point here is that the idea of
some sort of support on the sides of the kayak for stability is very
old and universal." Invitational Military Kayak Paddle 1994
Evaluation

Without sponsons no canoe or kayak of any type can be "pumped out",
resulting in instability, re-capsize and death. Escape from certain
death is the main reason for the "life raft platform concept" in the
United States:
USCG Level Flotation Standard 33 CFR 183. Issued April 18, 1977;
Effective August 1, 1978 "Establishes level flotation standards on
rowboats and outboard boats less than 20 feet in length, the boats
most often involved in swamping and capsizing accidents, so that the
boat will float level when swamped and provide a safe platform until
rescue." The US Coast Guard report 071-01 reveals: "Canoes and kayaks
have by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.
42) as any other boat type". In use hours, canoes and kayaks have a
far higher death rate than the deadliest vehicles. "Canoes and kayaks
have the highest fatality rate of all boat types." (Before the
Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of the U.S.
House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

From: http://www.sponsonguy.com/AmericanCa...ionSafety.html

Tim

On Aug 5, 1:52*pm, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
TimIngram wrote:

snip

The rec.boats.paddle posters took money from the American Canoe
Association snip

Prove it!

--
John Nelson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*--
* * * * * * * * * * * Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
* * * *http://www.chicagopaddling.org*http:...gofishing..org
*(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

Many rec.boats.paddle posters were American Canoe Association
instructors, using their ACA certification to take money from the
public for fraudulent "rescues" that most "experts" know can't
possibly work, even if, for every capsized canoe you have another
canoe uncapsized with 2 paddlers to help the first canoe. (Of course
the 2nd canoe is likely to soon capsize or fill in waves, attempting
to rescue anyone.) See the 2 dead boys from Darlington School in Rome,
Georgia. They died agonizing deaths near Suwannee Florida because
there was no means to escape the water (sponsons). Dead, DEAD, and
they died Agonizing deaths for lack of 50 cent sponsons: http://www.sponsonguy.com

You are disingenuous and deadly to kids. American Canoe Association
Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the 2005 book "Expedition
Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue touted by the Red Cross
and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to perform in a running sea.
Far better to forget about the swamped canoe and gear and put your
efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.):

Famous Canadian canoeist and film-maker Bill Mason, reversed his
traditional rescue ideas after the dead schoolchildren (12) in the
1978 Lake Temiskaming tragedy, stating that these rescues simply
cannot work, in his last book: "canoe over canoe...I have since
changed my mind..." (Song of the Paddle,1988, p.126). Mr. Mason
advocated extra interior flotation in this book instead, but died
suddenly of stomach cancer just before the first sponson patent became
known. C.E.S. Franks reached Bill Mason's conclusion just before
Temiskaming, in The Canoe and White Water, University of Toronto
Press, 1977, p.123: "...nearly useless...On a stormy lake where upsets
are likely to occur, the water is often too rough and choppy." Note:
American Canoe Association Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the
2005 book "Expedition Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue
touted by the Red Cross and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to
perform in a running sea. Far better to forget about the swamped canoe
and gear and put your efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.)
However, in Deep Waters, James Raffan notes that Jacobson's idea
merely capsized more canoes, killing 12 boys and one leader, Ontario's
Lake Temiskaming, 1978.
See page 108 of "Deep Waters": "Somewhere in the middle of the lake,
about two miles from shore and too far from the camp to be seen with
the naked eye, the canoe upset. Whether this was from a sudden gust of
wind on an otherwise calm summer evening, or from a novice paddler
"catching a crab" (a paddle) on the water and shifting position, is
not clear, although there was a tendency for some newspaper writers
(as there would be with Timiskaming fifty years later) to concoct a
violent storm to overturn the canoe. There was likely no storm. In any
case the big canoe upset. It had no air tanks, sponsons, or flotation
chambers,..."

Dillon published her book in 2008 anyway. Oyen and Dillon are
deliberately wanton and reckless with regard to human life, despite
the above book comment by even their own ACA Hall of Fame member Cliff
Jacobson!

Please note: with sponsons, more water inside creates more weight and
therefore more stability. See this stability below in "awashed" U.S.
Military kayaks: US Military Special Forces, 10th Airbourne, Fort
Devens, MA, 200 mile ocean kayak race, the coast of Maine, between
Military Kayaking Teams from about 12 NATO countries:
"basic, no nonsense...dramatically increase...safety
and...capabilities... It should be noted that within the North
American civilian sea kayak industry there is some controversy...Sea
Wings' direct competition with...the paddle float...the merits of Sea
Wings...far outweigh those of the paddlefloat...During the IMKP 1994
we used Sea Wings with all our rescue boats as back-up flotation/
stability for awashed kayaks needing assistance pumping out in heavy
seas. In addition, IMKP's rescue kayak was fitted with Sea Wings on a
permanent basis which allowed us to be far more stable in possible
rescue operations...Sea Wings dramatically increase re-entry
operations with capsized boats. Indeed, even with heavily loaded boats
(those approaching 1000 lbs.) most paddlers can easily re-enter the
kayak. However the most notable advantage of Sea Wings is with lightly
loaded boats; ie, those kayaks which are far less stable (more tippy)
than fully loaded boats. Recovery operations are far more difficult in
these boats and most students have extreme difficulty in mastering the
necessary techniques. This is compounded in heavy seas. Sea Wings
offers an almost guaranteed method of re-entering a lightly loaded
kayak even in heavy seas. Stability increase in heavy seas. Paddling
in extremely heavy seas is difficult. Sea Wings offer the crews an
additional method of dealing with such sea states. One of the most
dangerous situations a detachment can find itself in is that of towing
a disabled crew with full operational loads in heavy seas at night.
The employment of Sea Wings dramatically increases the safety margin.
In my opinion, this is one of the sponsons' most important
contributions to MAROPS... As an historical footnote it should be
noted that circumpolar kayakers (Greenlanders and Inuit) employed a
similar sponson/ float for stability. It differed significantly though
from Sea Wings in that it was free floating; i.e., there was
apparently no harness system and stability came from pushing down on
the float on the side of the kayak. In addition, during the late 70's
and early 80's we employed a similar system with our commo boats.
Waterproof bags were blown up and hand held to the sides of the kayak
while communication was conducted. The point here is that the idea of
some sort of support on the sides of the kayak for stability is very
old and universal." Invitational Military Kayak Paddle 1994
Evaluation

Without sponsons no canoe or kayak of any type can be "pumped out",
resulting in instability, re-capsize and death. Escape from certain
death is the main reason for the "life raft platform concept" in the
United States:
USCG Level Flotation Standard 33 CFR 183. Issued April 18, 1977;
Effective August 1, 1978 "Establishes level flotation standards on
rowboats and outboard boats less than 20 feet in length, the boats
most often involved in swamping and capsizing accidents, so that the
boat will float level when swamped and provide a safe platform until
rescue." The US Coast Guard report 071-01 reveals: "Canoes and kayaks
have by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.
42) as any other boat type". In use hours, canoes and kayaks have a
far higher death rate than the deadliest vehicles. "Canoes and kayaks
have the highest fatality rate of all boat types." (Before the
Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of the U.S.
House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

From: http://www.sponsonguy.com/AmericanCa...ionSafety.html

Tim

On Aug 5, 2:58*pm, "Cricket" wrote:
"Chicago Paddling-Fishing" wrote in message

...

TimIngram wrote:

snip

The rec.boats.paddle posters took money from the American Canoe
Association snip

Prove it!

--
John Nelson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*--
* * * * * * * * * * *Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
* * *http://www.chicagopaddling.org*http:...agofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

The hell with prove it - I *want* some...

Cricket

Many rec.boats.paddle posters were American Canoe Association
instructors, using their ACA certification to take money from the
public for fraudulent "rescues" that most "experts" know can't
possibly work, even if, for every capsized canoe you have another
canoe uncapsized with 2 paddlers to help the first canoe. (Of course
the 2nd canoe is likely to soon capsize or fill in waves, attempting
to rescue anyone.) See the 2 dead boys from Darlington School in Rome,
Georgia. They died agonizing deaths near Suwannee Florida because
there was no means to escape the water (sponsons). Dead, DEAD, and
they died Agonizing deaths for lack of 50 cent sponsons: http://www.sponsonguy.com

You are disingenuous and deadly to kids. American Canoe Association
Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the 2005 book "Expedition
Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue touted by the Red Cross
and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to perform in a running sea.
Far better to forget about the swamped canoe and gear and put your
efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.):

Famous Canadian canoeist and film-maker Bill Mason, reversed his
traditional rescue ideas after the dead schoolchildren (12) in the
1978 Lake Temiskaming tragedy, stating that these rescues simply
cannot work, in his last book: "canoe over canoe...I have since
changed my mind..." (Song of the Paddle,1988, p.126). Mr. Mason
advocated extra interior flotation in this book instead, but died
suddenly of stomach cancer just before the first sponson patent became
known. C.E.S. Franks reached Bill Mason's conclusion just before
Temiskaming, in The Canoe and White Water, University of Toronto
Press, 1977, p.123: "...nearly useless...On a stormy lake where upsets
are likely to occur, the water is often too rough and choppy." Note:
American Canoe Association Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the
2005 book "Expedition Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue
touted by the Red Cross and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to
perform in a running sea. Far better to forget about the swamped canoe
and gear and put your efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.)
However, in Deep Waters, James Raffan notes that Jacobson's idea
merely capsized more canoes, killing 12 boys and one leader, Ontario's
Lake Temiskaming, 1978.
See page 108 of "Deep Waters": "Somewhere in the middle of the lake,
about two miles from shore and too far from the camp to be seen with
the naked eye, the canoe upset. Whether this was from a sudden gust of
wind on an otherwise calm summer evening, or from a novice paddler
"catching a crab" (a paddle) on the water and shifting position, is
not clear, although there was a tendency for some newspaper writers
(as there would be with Timiskaming fifty years later) to concoct a
violent storm to overturn the canoe. There was likely no storm. In any
case the big canoe upset. It had no air tanks, sponsons, or flotation
chambers,..."

Dillon published her book in 2008 anyway. Oyen and Dillon are
deliberately wanton and reckless with regard to human life, despite
the above book comment by even their own ACA Hall of Fame member Cliff
Jacobson!

Please note: with sponsons, more water inside creates more weight and
therefore more stability. See this stability below in "awashed" U.S.
Military kayaks: US Military Special Forces, 10th Airbourne, Fort
Devens, MA, 200 mile ocean kayak race, the coast of Maine, between
Military Kayaking Teams from about 12 NATO countries:
"basic, no nonsense...dramatically increase...safety
and...capabilities... It should be noted that within the North
American civilian sea kayak industry there is some controversy...Sea
Wings' direct competition with...the paddle float...the merits of Sea
Wings...far outweigh those of the paddlefloat...During the IMKP 1994
we used Sea Wings with all our rescue boats as back-up flotation/
stability for awashed kayaks needing assistance pumping out in heavy
seas. In addition, IMKP's rescue kayak was fitted with Sea Wings on a
permanent basis which allowed us to be far more stable in possible
rescue operations...Sea Wings dramatically increase re-entry
operations with capsized boats. Indeed, even with heavily loaded boats
(those approaching 1000 lbs.) most paddlers can easily re-enter the
kayak. However the most notable advantage of Sea Wings is with lightly
loaded boats; ie, those kayaks which are far less stable (more tippy)
than fully loaded boats. Recovery operations are far more difficult in
these boats and most students have extreme difficulty in mastering the
necessary techniques. This is compounded in heavy seas. Sea Wings
offers an almost guaranteed method of re-entering a lightly loaded
kayak even in heavy seas. Stability increase in heavy seas. Paddling
in extremely heavy seas is difficult. Sea Wings offer the crews an
additional method of dealing with such sea states. One of the most
dangerous situations a detachment can find itself in is that of towing
a disabled crew with full operational loads in heavy seas at night.
The employment of Sea Wings dramatically increases the safety margin.
In my opinion, this is one of the sponsons' most important
contributions to MAROPS... As an historical footnote it should be
noted that circumpolar kayakers (Greenlanders and Inuit) employed a
similar sponson/ float for stability. It differed significantly though
from Sea Wings in that it was free floating; i.e., there was
apparently no harness system and stability came from pushing down on
the float on the side of the kayak. In addition, during the late 70's
and early 80's we employed a similar system with our commo boats.
Waterproof bags were blown up and hand held to the sides of the kayak
while communication was conducted. The point here is that the idea of
some sort of support on the sides of the kayak for stability is very
old and universal." Invitational Military Kayak Paddle 1994
Evaluation

Without sponsons no canoe or kayak of any type can be "pumped out",
resulting in instability, re-capsize and death. Escape from certain
death is the main reason for the "life raft platform concept" in the
United States:
USCG Level Flotation Standard 33 CFR 183. Issued April 18, 1977;
Effective August 1, 1978 "Establishes level flotation standards on
rowboats and outboard boats less than 20 feet in length, the boats
most often involved in swamping and capsizing accidents, so that the
boat will float level when swamped and provide a safe platform until
rescue." The US Coast Guard report 071-01 reveals: "Canoes and kayaks
have by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.
42) as any other boat type". In use hours, canoes and kayaks have a
far higher death rate than the deadliest vehicles. "Canoes and kayaks
have the highest fatality rate of all boat types." (Before the
Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of the U.S.
House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

From: http://www.sponsonguy.com/AmericanCa...ionSafety.html

Tim

TimIngram wrote:
On Aug 5, 1:50?pm, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
TimIngram wrote:

snipto save themselves. Go ahead, test a court with rolling, paddle
floating, canoe over canoe, capistrano flip, paddle a floooded canoe
or kayak to shore. The depth of perfidy of your canoe and kayak death

snip

That's funny, I just came back from a few weeks at scout camp and every week
on what's called 'Wet Wednesday', hundreds of kids tip over their canoe and
do canoe over canoe rescues and climb back in... it's a requirement for
canoeing merit badge... hundreds, perhaps thousands per week did it all
summer long to earn the merit badge at the camp I was at (and I'm sure the
same is true for countless other camps for Boy and Girl Scouts across the
world)...

snip

Also, I've been on a jury and I can get back in a canoe after being flung
into the water (although the last time I did it was at an ACA Canoe instructor
class I took...

These are some of the things the kids do...
? ? e. In deep water, exit the canoe and get back in without capsizing.
? ? f. Capsize the canoe and demonstrate how staying with a capsized canoe
? ? ? ?will support both paddlers.
? ? g. Swim, tow, or push a swamped canoe 50 feet to shallow water. In the
? ? ? ?shallow water, empty the swamped canoe and reenter it.
? ? h. In deep water, rescue a swamped canoe and its paddlers by emptying the
? ? ? ?swamped canoe and helping the paddlers safely reenter their boat
? ? ? ?without capsizing.


You are disingenuous and deadly to kids. American Canoe Association
Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the 2005 book "Expedition
Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue touted by the Red Cross
and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to perform in a running sea.
Far better to forget about the swamped canoe and gear and put your
efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.):

The kids need practice... this way, when an emergency comes, they'll be
prepared. Perhaps it is impossible for you to do, but all summer long
scouts all over the world do it.

snip

You claimed those of us who post in r.b.p have accepted funds from the ACA,
please show us proof or admit you lied and move to another news group.

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

On Aug 12, 2:04*pm, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
TimIngram wrote:
On Aug 5, 1:50?pm, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
TimIngram wrote:

snipto save themselves. Go ahead, test a court with rolling, paddle
floating, canoe over canoe, capistrano flip, paddle a floooded canoe
or kayak to shore. The depth of perfidy of your canoe and kayak death

snip

That's funny, I just came back from a few weeks at scout camp and every week
on what's called 'Wet Wednesday', hundreds of kids tip over their canoe and
do canoe over canoe rescues and climb back in... it's a requirement for
canoeing merit badge... hundreds, perhaps thousands per week did it all
summer long to earn the merit badge at the camp I was at (and I'm sure the
same is true for countless other camps for Boy and Girl Scouts across the
world)...

snip

Also, I've been on a jury and I can get back in a canoe after being flung
into the water (although the last time I did it was at an ACA Canoe instructor
class I took...

These are some of the things the kids do...
? ? e. In deep water, exit the canoe and get back in without capsizing..
? ? f. Capsize the canoe and demonstrate how staying with a capsized canoe
? ? ? ?will support both paddlers.
? ? g. Swim, tow, or push a swamped canoe 50 feet to shallow water. In the
? ? ? ?shallow water, empty the swamped canoe and reenter it.
? ? h. In deep water, rescue a swamped canoe and its paddlers by emptying the
? ? ? ?swamped canoe and helping the paddlers safely reenter their boat
? ? ? ?without capsizing.

You are disingenuous and deadly to kids. American Canoe Association
Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the 2005 book "Expedition
Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue touted by the Red Cross
and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to perform in a running sea.
Far better to forget about the swamped canoe and gear and put your
efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.):

The kids need practice... this way, when an emergency comes, they'll be
prepared. *Perhaps it is impossible for you to do, but all summer long
scouts all over the world do it.

snip

You claimed those of us who post in r.b.p have accepted funds from the ACA,
please show us proof or admit you lied and move to another news group.

--
John Nelson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------*--
* * * * * * * * * * * Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
* * * *http://www.chicagopaddling.org*http:...gofishing..org
*(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thought I'd try to get back to the subject which is sponsons and their
use as a safety aid.

I sell Edon Rowing Boats ( www.virginiarowing.com) which come complete
with sponsons that attach under the rigger on either side. This makes
the boats a lot safer to use in cold water conditions and is also
helpful when learning to row.

Every year I hear of at least one death either in the US, Canada or
the UK from cold water following a capsize in a rowing shell. I row
these boats with sponsons in the winter months even down here in
southern Virginia, I've many years of experience but accidents can
happen to even the best prepared and I've no intention of dying for my
sport.

Take a look at the Edon on the web site and let me know what you
think.

Roger
www.virginiarowing.com
Edon Recreational Rowing Boats

On Aug 13, 7:09*am, wrote:
On Aug 12, 2:04*pm, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:





TimIngram wrote:
On Aug 5, 1:50?pm, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
TimIngram wrote:

snipto save themselves. Go ahead, test a court with rolling, paddle
floating, canoe over canoe, capistrano flip, paddle a floooded canoe
or kayak to shore. The depth of perfidy of your canoe and kayak death

snip

That's funny, I just came back from a few weeks at scout camp and every week
on what's called 'Wet Wednesday', hundreds of kids tip over their canoe and
do canoe over canoe rescues and climb back in... it's a requirement for
canoeing merit badge... hundreds, perhaps thousands per week did it all
summer long to earn the merit badge at the camp I was at (and I'm sure the
same is true for countless other camps for Boy and Girl Scouts across the
world)...

snip

Also, I've been on a jury and I can get back in a canoe after being flung
into the water (although the last time I did it was at an ACA Canoe instructor
class I took...

These are some of the things the kids do...
? ? e. In deep water, exit the canoe and get back in without capsizing.
? ? f. Capsize the canoe and demonstrate how staying with a capsized canoe
? ? ? ?will support both paddlers.
? ? g. Swim, tow, or push a swamped canoe 50 feet to shallow water. In the
? ? ? ?shallow water, empty the swamped canoe and reenter it.
? ? h. In deep water, rescue a swamped canoe and its paddlers by emptying the
? ? ? ?swamped canoe and helping the paddlers safely reenter their boat
? ? ? ?without capsizing.

You are disingenuous and deadly to kids. American Canoe Association
Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson in the 2005 book "Expedition
Canoeing" states: "The canoe-over-canoe rescue touted by the Red Cross
and Boy Scouts is generally impossible to perform in a running sea.
Far better to forget about the swamped canoe and gear and put your
efforts into rescuing the paddlers" (p.202.):

The kids need practice... this way, when an emergency comes, they'll be
prepared. *Perhaps it is impossible for you to do, but all summer long
scouts all over the world do it.

snip

You claimed those of us who post in r.b.p have accepted funds from the ACA,
please show us proof or admit you lied and move to another news group.

--
John Nelson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------**--
* * * * * * * * * * * Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
* * * *http://www.chicagopaddling.org*http:...agofishing.org
*(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thought I'd try to get back to the subject which is sponsons and their
use as a safety aid.

I sell Edon Rowing Boats (www.virginiarowing.com) which come complete
with sponsons that attach under the rigger on either side. This makes
the boats a lot safer to use in cold water conditions and is also
helpful when learning to row.

Every year I hear of at least one death either in the US, Canada or
the UK from cold water following a capsize in a rowing shell. I row
these boats with sponsons in the winter months even down here in
southern Virginia, I've many years of experience but accidents can
happen to even the best prepared and I've no intention of dying for my
sport.

Take a look at the Edon on the web site and let me know what you
think.

Rogerwww.virginiarowing.com
Edon Recreational Rowing Boats- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good for you Roger. However, my experience with this group over the
years is that they want the most dangerous canoes and kayaks possible
so they can either sell fraudulent American Canoe Association rescue
instruction that does not work, or generally claim superiority over
other innocent people.

Roger Nelson continues to deliberately endanger Boy Scouts, claiming
that "The kids need practice... this way, when an emergency comes,
they'll be prepared. Perhaps it is impossible for you to do, but all
summer long scouts all over the world do it." If kids need "practice",
then this will not work in an emergency; unlike 50 cent sponsons
clipped on in 5 seconds by any kid without instruction or practice. Of
course even ACA Hall of Fame member Cliff Jacobson, as well as most
other authors state the canoe-over-canoe rescue, risking capsize of
another canoe, is not likely to work in anything but calm and highly
controlled situations with another canoe and other paddlers etc.-the
opposite of John Nelson above "when an emergency comes." Emergencies
are not calm and controlled by definition. Otherwise it is not an
emergency, but is routine. Perhaps John just thinks like Sarah Palin
or many other red-blooded Americans. Too bad for the Darlington School
boys and hundreds of other dead American kids.

Tim
http://www.sponsonguy.com