My kids have gotten me into caving again. FINALLY, I have gotten them
into getting their own gear ready and my 13 yr old daughter and 23 yr
old daughter spent an hour or so getting lights, helmets, and other
gear ready and had a good time doing it. 23 yr old is bringing her bf
who has been before and his 9 yr old brother who has not, exhausting
our supply of electric lights so I am going back to the old days of
using a carbide lamp. The awful smell of acetylene made from the
calcium carbide sure brings back memories, a good smell to an older
caver. The ritual of lighting the carbide lamp was instinctive
leading to the nice POP as she burst into light. Made sure we all
have at least 3 sources of light, trash bags (can save your life) and
other stuff.
Going to go to a cave I've been in dozens of times near Marianna, FL.
Its a nice muddy cave with lots of drippy formations and a couple of
nice climbs and lots of muddy crawling.
Yes, I 'd like to go boating but the lure of dark unknown passages is
too strong and the boots just feel right. I just wish my 19 yr old son
was interested.

On Jul 10, 11:57*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
My kids have gotten me into caving again. *FINALLY, I have gotten them
into getting their own gear ready and my 13 yr old daughter and 23 yr
old daughter spent an hour or so getting lights, helmets, and other
gear ready and had a good time doing it. *23 yr old is bringing her bf
who has been before and his 9 yr old brother who has not, exhausting
our supply of electric lights so I am going back to the old days of
using a carbide lamp. *The awful smell of acetylene made from the
calcium carbide sure brings back memories, a good smell to an older
caver. *The ritual of lighting the carbide lamp was instinctive
leading to the nice POP as she burst into light. *Made sure we all
have at least 3 sources of light, trash bags (can save your life) and
other stuff.
Going to go to a cave I've been in dozens of times near Marianna, FL.
Its a nice muddy cave with lots of drippy formations and a couple of
nice climbs and lots of muddy crawling.
Yes, I 'd like to go boating but the lure of dark unknown passages is
too strong and the boots just feel right. I just wish my 19 yr old son
was interested.

On Jul 11, 12:21*am, Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:57*pm, Frogwatch wrote:

My kids have gotten me into caving again. *FINALLY, I have gotten them
into getting their own gear ready and my 13 yr old daughter and 23 yr
old daughter spent an hour or so getting lights, helmets, and other
gear ready and had a good time doing it. *23 yr old is bringing her bf
who has been before and his 9 yr old brother who has not, exhausting
our supply of electric lights so I am going back to the old days of
using a carbide lamp. *The awful smell of acetylene made from the
calcium carbide sure brings back memories, a good smell to an older
caver. *The ritual of lighting the carbide lamp was instinctive
leading to the nice POP as she burst into light. *Made sure we all
have at least 3 sources of light, trash bags (can save your life) and
other stuff.
Going to go to a cave I've been in dozens of times near Marianna, FL.
Its a nice muddy cave with lots of drippy formations and a couple of
nice climbs and lots of muddy crawling.
Yes, I 'd like to go boating but the lure of dark unknown passages is
too strong and the boots just feel right. I just wish my 19 yr old son
was interested.

Thinking about ti made me pull up my map of Climax cave in south GA.
A difficult cave, a maze of swiss cheese-like rock interspersed with
large rooms and pools of water so clear you'd walk right into em not
knowing they were there. Just getting to the main part of the cave
required a serious crawl through very tight passage for a couple
hundred feet with one spot requiring you take off helmet and put hands
in front and swallow your fear and push downward with your toes as you
passed through a place too tight to wiggle at all, only your toes
allowed you to push ahead. You emerged into passage requiring you to
crawl on your side suspended above a notch-like crevice and then a
sharp left turn through a bizarre keyhole-like opening.
Eventually, you go to the T-room, a huge place too big for carbide
lamps to see across strewn with enormous boulders requiring you to
traverse from one to another in the darkness to reach the relative
comfort of THE ROCK GOD. Imagine an enormous and high rock hanging
over an ampitheatre-sized room. From its top you look down into a
chaos of boulders disapperaring into the darkness. A truly primeval
place. It is as if you are present at the moment of creation, before
God produced light, the only elements being rock and darkness. With
your lamp, you feel god-like able to separate rock from nothingness
and darkness. All reality is defined by the extant of your carbide
lamp with the unknown stretching beyond the dimly lit regions of your
lamps reach.
It is also humbling knowing that without light you'd be lost in the
chaos. Imagine being immersed in the noise of your tv screen without
any signal, except it is dark. Without any light you'd never find the
passage that your carbide lamp reveals and you'd wander randomly
through the chaos. You are far beyond any hope of rescue if anything
happened to you and all hope of returning to reality depends entirely
on yourself.
These caving experiences of my late 20s strongly shaped my outlook on
life and made me almost completely self sufficient and generated a
desire for the unknown stronger than any drug. Even in my early 50s,
I still have several dreams a week about caving. Something that
shapes your life so strongly is difficult to ignore when it comes back
later in life.

On Jul 11, 12:54*am, Frogwatch wrote:

*Made sure we all
have at least 3 sources of light, trash bags (can save your life) and
other stuff.

Do you also run a continuous line to the entrance like the underwater
cavers?

What are the trash bags for?

*From its top you look down into a
chaos of boulders disapperaring into the darkness. *A truly primeval
place. *It is as if you are present at the moment of creation, before
God produced light, the only elements being rock and darkness. *With
your lamp, you feel god-like able to separate rock from nothingness
and darkness. *All reality is defined by the extant of your carbide
lamp with the unknown stretching beyond the dimly lit regions of your
lamps reach.
It is also humbling knowing that without light you'd be lost in the
chaos. *Imgine being immersed in the noise of your tv screen without
any signal, except it is dark. *Without any light you'd never find the
passage that your carbide lamp reveals and you'd wander randomly
through the chaos. *You are far beyond any hope of rescue if anything
happened to you and all hope of returning to reality depends entirely
on yourself.

Great description :-)

These caving experiences of my late 20s strongly shaped my outlook on
life and made me almost completely self sufficient and generated a
desire for the unknown stronger than any drug. *Even in my early 50s,
I still have several dreams a week about caving. *Something that
shapes your life so strongly is difficult to ignore when it comes back
later in life.

My only experience is with UW caves (technically the "cavern" portions
of them). Weightless, in total
darkness and the only sound is your breathing off the regulator.
Coolest experience
was near the grate in the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs. You can shut
down your light
and look back (100'+-) towards the entrance, and it will appear as a
round blue - green
and white sphere, like a photo of the earth, from space. Weekday
afternoons are best, to have the place for yourself) and, you don't
have to worry about weather, seas, or even washing your gear.

UW caving is viewed as near suicidal by the general public. But, the
vast majority of
fatalities are divers completely untrained in diving caves (or any OH
environment), with totally
inappropriate diving gear, ignoring & bypassing the"Grim Reaper"
warning signs that are in
place at every dive site, and going where they meet what can only be a
nightmarishly frightening end.

For a brief history of perhaps the most amazing, Brass Balls required,
UW cavers checkout:

http://gue.com/?q=en/node/552
--
SJM

On Jul 11, 9:36*pm, Butthead wrote:
On Jul 11, 12:54*am, Frogwatch wrote:

*Made sure we all
have at least 3 sources of light, trash bags (can save your life) and
other stuff.

Do you also run a continuous line to the entrance like the underwater
cavers?

What are the trash bags for?

*From its top you look down into a
chaos of boulders disapperaring into the darkness. *A truly primeval
place. *It is as if you are present at the moment of creation, before
God produced light, the only elements being rock and darkness. *With
your lamp, you feel god-like able to separate rock from nothingness
and darkness. *All reality is defined by the extant of your carbide
lamp with the unknown stretching beyond the dimly lit regions of your
lamps reach.
It is also humbling knowing that without light you'd be lost in the
chaos. *Imgine being immersed in the noise of your tv screen without
any signal, except it is dark. *Without any light you'd never find the
passage that your carbide lamp reveals and you'd wander randomly
through the chaos. *You are far beyond any hope of rescue if anything
happened to you and all hope of returning to reality depends entirely
on yourself.

Great description :-)

These caving experiences of my late 20s strongly shaped my outlook on
life and made me almost completely self sufficient and generated a
desire for the unknown stronger than any drug. *Even in my early 50s,
I still have several dreams a week about caving. *Something that
shapes your life so strongly is difficult to ignore when it comes back
later in life.

My only experience is with UW caves (technically the "cavern" portions
of them). Weightless, in total
darkness and the only sound is your breathing off the regulator.
Coolest experience
was near the grate in the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs. You can shut
down your light
and look back (100'+-) towards the entrance, and it will appear as a
round blue - green
and white sphere, like a photo of the earth, from space. Weekday
afternoons are best, to have the place for yourself) and, you don't
have to worry about weather, seas, or even washing your gear.

UW caving is viewed as near suicidal by the general public. But, the
vast majority of
fatalities are divers completely untrained in diving caves (or any OH
environment), with totally
inappropriate diving gear, ignoring & bypassing the"Grim Reaper"
warning signs that are in
place at every dive site, and going where they meet what can only be a
nightmarishly frightening end.

For a brief history of perhaps the most amazing, Brass Balls required,
UW cavers checkout:

http://gue.com/?q=en/node/552
--
SJM

Dry cavers do not generally use lines to guide us but instead rely on
memory and a sense of whether a passage has been travelled.
We were camping at Ginnie Springs once and we heard a bunch of drunk
divers going into the spring about 100' from our tent. One decided to
go in without tanks just free diving into the cave entrance. He
drowned. One of our party gave him cpr for 45 minutes till the
paramedics arrived but it was too late.
I have had a good friend who was a very experienced cave diver die
while pushing the hammock-emerald-system that has now been connected
to Wakulla. I considered UW caving but decided not to because my
first kid was born.
The trash bag is to get into if you get trapped in the cave. It
conserves body warmth, it works.
It is wonderful to see my daughters bf get so excited about it that he
studies our old maps and cannot wait to go on another trip.
Tomorrow we are going back to the Wacissa River to snorkel all the
springs on it. It is a canoe/kayak trip through crystal clear waters
like the Santa Fe River at Ginnie Springs.

Frogwatch wrote:
On Jul 11, 9:36 pm, Butthead wrote:
On Jul 11, 12:54 am, Frogwatch wrote:

Made sure we all
have at least 3 sources of light, trash bags (can save your life) and
other stuff.
Do you also run a continuous line to the entrance like the underwater
cavers?

What are the trash bags for?

From its top you look down into a
chaos of boulders disapperaring into the darkness. A truly primeval
place. It is as if you are present at the moment of creation, before
God produced light, the only elements being rock and darkness. With
your lamp, you feel god-like able to separate rock from nothingness
and darkness. All reality is defined by the extant of your carbide
lamp with the unknown stretching beyond the dimly lit regions of your
lamps reach.
It is also humbling knowing that without light you'd be lost in the
chaos. Imgine being immersed in the noise of your tv screen without
any signal, except it is dark. Without any light you'd never find the
passage that your carbide lamp reveals and you'd wander randomly
through the chaos. You are far beyond any hope of rescue if anything
happened to you and all hope of returning to reality depends entirely
on yourself.
Great description :-)

These caving experiences of my late 20s strongly shaped my outlook on
life and made me almost completely self sufficient and generated a
desire for the unknown stronger than any drug. Even in my early 50s,
I still have several dreams a week about caving. Something that
shapes your life so strongly is difficult to ignore when it comes back
later in life.
My only experience is with UW caves (technically the "cavern" portions
of them). Weightless, in total
darkness and the only sound is your breathing off the regulator.
Coolest experience
was near the grate in the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs. You can shut
down your light
and look back (100'+-) towards the entrance, and it will appear as a
round blue - green
and white sphere, like a photo of the earth, from space. Weekday
afternoons are best, to have the place for yourself) and, you don't
have to worry about weather, seas, or even washing your gear.

UW caving is viewed as near suicidal by the general public. But, the
vast majority of
fatalities are divers completely untrained in diving caves (or any OH
environment), with totally
inappropriate diving gear, ignoring & bypassing the"Grim Reaper"
warning signs that are in
place at every dive site, and going where they meet what can only be a
nightmarishly frightening end.

For a brief history of perhaps the most amazing, Brass Balls required,
UW cavers checkout:

http://gue.com/?q=en/node/552
--
SJM

Dry cavers do not generally use lines to guide us but instead rely on
memory and a sense of whether a passage has been travelled.
We were camping at Ginnie Springs once and we heard a bunch of drunk
divers going into the spring about 100' from our tent. One decided to
go in without tanks just free diving into the cave entrance. He
drowned. One of our party gave him cpr for 45 minutes till the
paramedics arrived but it was too late.
I have had a good friend who was a very experienced cave diver die
while pushing the hammock-emerald-system that has now been connected
to Wakulla. I considered UW caving but decided not to because my
first kid was born.
The trash bag is to get into if you get trapped in the cave. It
conserves body warmth, it works.
It is wonderful to see my daughters bf get so excited about it that he
studies our old maps and cannot wait to go on another trip.
Tomorrow we are going back to the Wacissa River to snorkel all the
springs on it. It is a canoe/kayak trip through crystal clear waters
like the Santa Fe River at Ginnie Springs.

Very cool stuff. We used to do some caves down in Possum Hollow about 20
miles south of Huntsville Ala... It was way cool in there...

Frogwatch wrote:

Tomorrow we are going back to the Wacissa River to snorkel all the
springs on it. It is a canoe/kayak trip through crystal clear waters
like the Santa Fe River at Ginnie Springs.

Although Ichetucknee and Rainbow get all the fame I consider Silver by
far the best of the three.

Been a couple of years since I last took my Whaler right "downtown",
where the glass-bottom boats cruise and then back out to where the
snorkel/dive area starts (+- 1/2) from the main spring area). So another
trip is in order. A pontoon boat is really the way to do this river and
the local dive shops can hook you up with charters.

Maybe 4 miles back to launch ramp with a 2/3 knot current so its an easy
drift back.

One of the few swee****er spots I've ever had my boat.
--
SJM

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:54:35 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

in front and swallow your fear and push downward with your toes as you
passed through a place too tight to wiggle at all, only your toes
allowed you to push ahead.

Don't people get stuck in places like that? I read recently about a
kid who was cut out of a tight spot with power drills.

Casady

On Jul 13, 7:03*am, Richard Casady
wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:54:35 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch

wrote:
in front and swallow your fear and push downward with your toes as you
passed through a place too tight to wiggle at all, only your toes
allowed you to push ahead. *

Don't people get stuck in places like that? I read recently about a
kid who was cut out of a tight spot with power drills.

Casady

People get stuck all the time but in general, if you can get into it,
you can get out of it with some effort. Mostly, it is a matter of
relaxing enough.
The worst is getting someone injured out. I was once on a trip where
we carried long term supplies into Great Expectations cave in Wyoming
because it was realized that if someone got a broken arm or leg they
would be in there for a long time. Since I injured my back and have
it recur at inconvenient times, my great fear is of having it go bad
during a trip so I don't do difficult trips anymore.
In a local cave with a very tight long twisting crawl, a caver died
after hitting his head and drowning. To get his body out, 20 cavers
used all kinds of equipment to greatly enlarge the passage to get the
body bag out. It took nearly a week.
Believe it or not, it is probably safer than boating on July 4.

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:57:43 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

My kids have gotten me into caving again

Good - have fun - don't forget to write.

EEEWWW - caving.