On Sat, 9 May 2009 20:11:34 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:



One thing for sure. You can't make a valued judgment on events by watching
Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Lou Dobbs or any of
these clowns delivering news or commentary.
They are out for ratings. Period.

However, if you sorta stay tuned to White House announcements, incentives
and programs, you can get a pretty good sense for where this country is
heading.

I watch everything. More often then ever I'll switch from Morning Joe
or the Fox show to C-Span. Yeah, I know C-Span is riddled with
commies, but what can you do?
CNN is getting boring as hell, and Morning Joe has turned into a
little personality cult.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 May 2009 19:32:35 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..

Here's a different take.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/bu...html?_r=1&dlbk

This ending comment should make many here happy.

"This may come to be seen as Mr. Obama’s Nixon in China moment. Just
as it took a conservative Republican to open relations with the
largest Communist country in the world, it took a liberal Democrat to
break the U.A.W."

I do think this announcement of the UAW's death is premature.

--Vic


Consider this.

If the Fed had not provided bailout money to Chrysler (and GM) this
story
would have an entirely different ending.
What we are witnessing is the government controlling the destiny of a
public
corporation and screw the courts and bankruptcy laws.

More to come.

No doubt more to come, but consider this;

Major banks are failing left and right.
Hundred of thousands of Americans are losing their jobs.
The survival of the financial markets are in jeopardy.
The Dow Jones is in a precipitous dive, and trillions of dollars
of American wealth is being lost.
Home prices are in free fall and foreclosures are setting records
as more $trillions of American equity evaporates.
Suddenly, GM and Chrysler announce they can't operate
without government aid. They must shutter operations.
Perhaps millions of more American in the automotive industry and its
ancillary industries will get pink slips.
So George W. Bush and Hank Paulson bail them out.
What would you have done then?

--Vic

Bullying a settlement isn't going to work. Who's going to give the new
Chrysler financing (other than the government).
The unions?
Chrysler was DOA and should have been allowed a decent burial.

But, to your comments:

Major banks are not failing. They have more money than is good for them and
the economy. In fact, bank failures were higher back in the S&L crisis.
Unemployment comes and goes for all kinds of reasons. There's reason to
believe we've turned the corner.
It will be a while yet, but I think we are in recovery mode.
The financial markets will adjust.
Wall Street will adjust. It already has begun.
Home prices have adjusted for reality and for the market. The trillions of
dollars of "equity" never existed in the first place.
GM and Chrysler have been insolvent for at least a decade or more. Same
with Ford, but they are surviving the old fashioned way.

Now, if *I* were king, I think I'd put a major focus on correcting our trade
deficits. Screw being a nice guy. We need motivation, financial and
otherwise, to encourage a rebirth of manufacturing here, not there.
Increase tariffs on imported goods. Fight fire with fire. That in itself
would go a long ways to revitalizing our manufacturing base. I'd focus on
giving our proven system the tools it needs to compete in a global economy.
Good for China if it can produce a TV for 33 cents. We can't, and we aren't
going to try. The Chinese TV is going to have to cost about what ours sell
for. Besides, the Chinese haven't figured out how to make a power supply yet
that doesn't blow up or catch fire.

We experienced a severe shock to the system due to the phony mortgage
security derivatives that a bunch of crafty but sleazy financial types
invented.
That and greed in specific cases like the criminal Bernie Madoff.

But, we'll survive. I am much more optimistic than I was a few months ago.
Obama and his policies may help ease the pain temporarily, but it will be
our free market, capitalistic system that will ensure our long term survival
and prosperity.

Eisboch

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

CNN is getting boring as hell, and Morning Joe has turned into a
little personality cult.

--Vic


I agree regarding "Morning Joe". It used to be pretty good, but has become
goofy.

I still enjoy seeing Pat Buchanan get fired up when he's on though. He can
really be funny sometimes, without even trying. Talk about old school.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


I think it perfectly appropriate for the identity of the bondholders
to be made public. Obama didn't put these companies at risk; they
put themselves at risk.

Normally, I would agree. But their concern was due to the current
level of resentment against all financial institutions and the
physical threats that have been the result. There's a lynch mob
mentality that exists right now.


You mean, like crazed christian conservatives surrounding a family
planning clinic? Or texans threatening to secede?


Fer cripes sake, stay on the subject will you? You do that all the time.

Eisboch


Oh...I thought we were discussing lynch mobs.

"HK" wrote in message
m...
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


I think it perfectly appropriate for the identity of the bondholders
to be made public. Obama didn't put these companies at risk; they put
themselves at risk.

Normally, I would agree. But their concern was due to the current
level of resentment against all financial institutions and the physical
threats that have been the result. There's a lynch mob mentality that
exists right now.


You mean, like crazed christian conservatives surrounding a family
planning clinic? Or texans threatening to secede?


Fer cripes sake, stay on the subject will you? You do that all the
time.

Eisboch


Oh...I thought we were discussing lynch mobs.


No. We were discussing Rule or Attwood. Which is better?

Eisboch

On Sat, 9 May 2009 21:02:29 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:



But, to your comments:

Major banks are not failing.

I should have said financial houses, but they are all tied together.
But you had Countrywide, Indymac, Wells Fargo, Citigroup, etc, etc.
My timing might be off on some, but my memory of what faced Bush and
Company isn't. It looked real, real, bad.

They have more money than is good for them and
the economy. In fact, bank failures were higher back in the S&L crisis.
Unemployment comes and goes for all kinds of reasons. There's reason to
believe we've turned the corner.
It will be a while yet, but I think we are in recovery mode.
The financial markets will adjust.
Wall Street will adjust. It already has begun.
Home prices have adjusted for reality and for the market. The trillions of
dollars of "equity" never existed in the first place.
GM and Chrysler have been insolvent for at least a decade or more. Same
with Ford, but they are surviving the old fashioned way.

Yeah, building in Mexico. Not that they haven't managed to stay ahead
of the game. The game that's killing us.
I see U.S Honda and Toyota as better models.

Now, if *I* were king, I think I'd put a major focus on correcting our trade
deficits. Screw being a nice guy. We need motivation, financial and
otherwise, to encourage a rebirth of manufacturing here, not there.
Increase tariffs on imported goods. Fight fire with fire. That in itself
would go a long ways to revitalizing our manufacturing base. I'd focus on
giving our proven system the tools it needs to compete in a global economy.
Good for China if it can produce a TV for 33 cents. We can't, and we aren't
going to try. The Chinese TV is going to have to cost about what ours sell
for. Besides, the Chinese haven't figured out how to make a power supply yet
that doesn't blow up or catch fire.

I've been beating that drum for years. But it's running into a buzz
saw. You'll see. There was "buy America" language in the stimulus
package. Holy hell was raised about it, and it was dropped or
modified. And that's American TAXPAYER money!
See what Wall street says about that.
Get ready to hear the bull**** about Smoot-Hawley.

We experienced a severe shock to the system due to the phony mortgage
security derivatives that a bunch of crafty but sleazy financial types
invented.
That and greed in specific cases like the criminal Bernie Madoff.

But, we'll survive. I am much more optimistic than I was a few months ago.
Obama and his policies may help ease the pain temporarily, but it will be
our free market, capitalistic system that will ensure our long term survival
and prosperity.

Agreed. But Wall Street will call *any* restriction to "free trade"
commie. Didn't know you were a commie. Surprises me, frankly.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...


Agreed. But Wall Street will call *any* restriction to "free trade"
commie. Didn't know you were a commie. Surprises me, frankly.

--Vic


It's the Pat Buchanan in me.

Eisboch

On Sat, 9 May 2009 19:10:52 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
.. .

On Sat, 9 May 2009 18:19:51 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:




Is what's happening illegal?

If, indeed, the bond holders (who are secured creditors) were prevented
from negotiating or their proposal ignored, as their lawyer claims, a law
was broken. In a bankruptcy proceeding *all* creditors who want to be
heard, must be heard.


Who has priority and in what order from a legal standpoint?

Secured creditors are first in line. Unsecured creditors (vendors, etc) and
stockholders are last.


In order to receive the percentages you state, there must be some
value. What is being given in return?

That's just it. Virtually nothing. No consideration. Well, in a way there
is. The unions are getting
55% ownership for making previous concessions, I suppose. Fiat, to the
best of my knowledge isn't putting up a nickle. I've tried to find out
what, if anything Fiat is "paying" for their 20% stake. I can't find it. I
did find a reference that stated that they aren't putting any money up for
the stock. They are just assuming the operational and marketing roles. The
Fed owns the rest.

At one point Obama said that Fiat's position would increase if the
taxpayer's bailout money is repaid, but then he changed his tune and quietly
let it be known that the $8B that the Fed has given Chrysler so far
"probably won't be repaid".


I honestly don't know about these proceedings so I'm curious.

Bankruptcy proceedings are well established and are supposed to give fair
consideration to all parties.
This one was railroaded. It's why Obama wanted to avoid it to begin with.

Personally, as a former businessman, I felt that lacking a white knight
buyer or investor, the fairest way for all concerned parties for both
Chrysler and GM to restructure was via the Chapter 11 bankruptcy route.
It's designed to be fair. This time it wasn't.

Eisboch

Are the union concessions considered owed payroll or wages? Under BK
law, anything that's owed to the employees comes before everything,
including secured debt.

May have been part of their agreement in making the concessions.

Is Fiat putting any money in? Guarantees to assume debt?

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
m...
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


I think it perfectly appropriate for the identity of the
bondholders to be made public. Obama didn't put these companies at
risk; they put themselves at risk.

Normally, I would agree. But their concern was due to the current
level of resentment against all financial institutions and the
physical threats that have been the result. There's a lynch mob
mentality that exists right now.


You mean, like crazed christian conservatives surrounding a family
planning clinic? Or texans threatening to secede?


Fer cripes sake, stay on the subject will you? You do that all the
time.

Eisboch


Oh...I thought we were discussing lynch mobs.


No. We were discussing Rule or Attwood. Which is better?

Eisboch


If there is resentment against financial institutions and their
managers, it is because it is deserved. Those greedy *******s tool
intolerable risks with the livelihoods, savings, futures and retirements
of millions of Americans. None of them are going to jail. None of them
are suffering like the families they ruined. I feel no compassion for them.

On Sat, 9 May 2009 21:02:29 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Now, if *I* were king, I think I'd put a major focus on correcting our trade
deficits. Screw being a nice guy. We need motivation, financial and
otherwise, to encourage a rebirth of manufacturing here, not there.
Increase tariffs on imported goods. Fight fire with fire. That in itself
would go a long ways to revitalizing our manufacturing base. I'd focus on
giving our proven system the tools it needs to compete in a global economy.
Good for China if it can produce a TV for 33 cents. We can't, and we aren't
going to try. The Chinese TV is going to have to cost about what ours sell
for. Besides, the Chinese haven't figured out how to make a power supply yet
that doesn't blow up or catch fire.

Please reconcile the above with the below...

But, we'll survive. I am much more optimistic than I was a few months ago.
Obama and his policies may help ease the pain temporarily, but it will be
our free market, capitalistic system that will ensure our long term survival
and prosperity.

I'm in agreement with your first statement above but cannot imagine it
happening under our "free market system."

American industry has been undercut by foreign competition and the
race to find the cheapest labor, no matter the locale.

Capitalism may work but free market is only a fantasy for India and
Bangladesh. It's a nightmare for the US.