On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:08:15 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they
had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4
strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a
possibility.
Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in
heavy seas.
I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing
multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance.

Once a boat like that is full of water and in big seas, the chances of
successfully righting it are just about zero. It would take either a
crane or divers with air bags to have any chance of success.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:47:20 -0500, wrote:

I wondered about that myself. Unfortunately these guys couldn't come
up with any rope (or they would have tied off to the hull)
I am thinking that 1000 pounds of steroid enhanced muscle braced
against the hull pulling on a couple lines that went under the boat to
the opposite gunwale could have pulled it over. The trick would be to
not get hit once it passed the tipping point. I still doubt they could
have bailed it out but it would have been easier to stay with if they
could get in it.
We had a similar boat sink at the dock here several years ago and the
only way we could raise her was to pump it out from up on the dock
while it was tied to the dock holding the transom up and nobody in it.
When I showed up with my 3" trash pump they were trying to do it with
buckets, standing in 3' of water
That was in a protected basin with slick calm, 80 degree, water.
I can't imagine doing it at sea, even if it was a calm day.

I was thinking of this boat in terms of a 21' Carolina Skiff.
It's not even close.
http://www.evergladesboats.com/boats/210cc.php
3400 lbs w/o motor. Very heavy boat.
Don't know if had the hardtop, but that sure wouldn't help.

The 21' Carolina Skiff is less than half the weight.
http://www.carolinaskiff.com/listman...ngs/l0009.html

So I agree with Wayne about that boat being impossible to right
manually. Might as well agree even if it was a CS.
Probably some complicated physics to it all depending on hull shape,
COB and such - beyond all the sea conditions.
It was just a thought.

--Vic

Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:07 pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 3, 10:44 pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 3, 9:24 pm, "Don White" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use
jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast
to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever
he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the
boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but
would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto
the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all
think of this?
Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your
pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you
lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal
conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you
lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your
"Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you
have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes,
this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at
the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours.
That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the
manuals.
Well, it works.
I'll bet you use recycled trash bags... :)
On a caving trip another time, it was drizzling cold rain and I forgot
my rain coat so I pulled the trash bag outa my helmet and put it on.
A friend took a pic of me standing there wearing a trash bag with a
cup of coffee in hand looking ridiculous. My kids look at the pic now
and nearly die laughing but I still think it made perfect sense at the
time.
HK, what do you think of the jackline idea?.
I've been using what you call "jacklines" for years. Maybe 50 years.

Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid
turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such?


1. No. Not in a 21' boat.

2. No.

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid
turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such?

Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat
can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are
screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a
steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's
maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram
sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats
have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized,
and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered
totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very
quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to
survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy
ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can
survive capsize but can not totally prevent it.

Some of "any" boats are self righting. They don't stay capsized.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid
turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such?
Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat
can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are
screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a
steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's
maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram
sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats
have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized,
and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered
totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very
quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to
survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy
ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can
survive capsize but can not totally prevent it.

There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they
had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4
strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a
possibility.
Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in
heavy seas.
I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing
multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance.
All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't
all stay with that boat.

--Vic



I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs
more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn
it over. How could you get leverage?

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:47:20 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

The trick would be to not get hit
once it passed the tipping point. I still doubt they could have bailed
it out but it would have been easier to stay with if they could get in
it.

But could they have gotten in it? Maybe I'm out of date, but I have seen
a couple of "positive flotation" boats filled with water (sunk), and the
only think above water was the bow, with the motor 20' below the
surface. I saw some pictures of this boat upside down, and it did look
relatively level. Perhaps, they are using better flotation these days.

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:24:34 -0400, Don White wrote:


That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in
the manuals.

Geeze, I must be old. When I was a cub scout you couldn't even buy a
plastic garbage bag. They are a Canadian invention by the way.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 06:37:16 -0500, HK wrote:



I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs
more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn
it over. How could you get leverage?

Hanging on ropes over the hull tied to the opposite gunnel, with feet
braced against the bottom. Get it rocking until you can pull it over.
Probably impossible with this type boat, but sailboaters do it.
Of course they have a centerboard to stand on, but also a mast working
against them.
I googled a bit about it, and the best I could find was a guy who had
singlehandedly righted his 13' Boston Whaler when it turned turtle.
No mention of what motor was hanging on it.
Coast Guard has a procedure with a bridle tied to the off gunnel and
then pull under power. Boat "naturally" rights.
What made me think about it was the amount of boat shown above water
in the Coast Guard video. Looked like maybe 10% of the boat.
For that boat maybe 400 lbs.
So it might seem you only need that much force to right, since the
boat was almost neutrally buoyant.
On reflection though, as the opposite side rises from the water and
sheds it, it will increase the weight that has to be overcome.
Like I said elsewhere, it was just a thought.
Mostly because there were 4 exceptionally strong and heavy guys.

--Vic

thunder wrote:
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:24:34 -0400, Don White wrote:


That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in
the manuals.

Geeze, I must be old. When I was a cub scout you couldn't even buy a
plastic garbage bag. They are a Canadian invention by the way.

It's all your fault.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 06:37:16 -0500, HK wrote:


I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs
more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn
it over. How could you get leverage?

Hanging on ropes over the hull tied to the opposite gunnel, with feet
braced against the bottom. Get it rocking until you can pull it over.
Probably impossible with this type boat, but sailboaters do it.
Of course they have a centerboard to stand on, but also a mast working
against them.
I googled a bit about it, and the best I could find was a guy who had
singlehandedly righted his 13' Boston Whaler when it turned turtle.
No mention of what motor was hanging on it.
Coast Guard has a procedure with a bridle tied to the off gunnel and
then pull under power. Boat "naturally" rights.
What made me think about it was the amount of boat shown above water
in the Coast Guard video. Looked like maybe 10% of the boat.
For that boat maybe 400 lbs.
So it might seem you only need that much force to right, since the
boat was almost neutrally buoyant.
On reflection though, as the opposite side rises from the water and
sheds it, it will increase the weight that has to be overcome.
Like I said elsewhere, it was just a thought.
Mostly because there were 4 exceptionally strong and heavy guys.

--Vic




And they were in the water amidst 14' waves.
In the good old days in the 1950s, we used to flip a buddy's 14'
Amesbury dory after removing the motor and gear to wash out the schmutz
after a day of fishing for stripers and porgies. We could easily flip
it, fill it with water and then turn it over and empty it. But this was
in LI Sound, not in the ocean, in warm water, sans 14-foot waves.