"Curly Surmudgeon" wrote in message
...

Did he? Seriously, I'm not blowing you off, I've seen no indication
that Obama worked "hard to get Blagojevich elected."


Data point: This topic has nothing to do with cnc machines, metalworking,
survivalism, kooks, or boats. Yet those are the newsgroups you post to.

Your discussion is of a political nature, yet you did not include any
political groups in your cross-posting spam. When you discuss political
topics, they don't belong in
alt.machines.cnc,rec.crafts.metalworking,misc.surv ivalism,alt.usenet.kooks,or
rec.boats.

Your off-topic data points are trending you as a spammer to these
newsgroups. See, we were listening to you, it takes more than one data point
to produce a trend. Now that you proved your point, please go away. Or are
you too stupid to understand data points?

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 02:23:36 +0000, D Murphy wrote:

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

Did he? Seriously, I'm not blowing you off, I've seen no indication
that Obama worked "hard to get Blagojevich elected."


Obama, Emanuel, and David Wilhelm ran his first gubernatorial
campaign. Obama came over after his guy lost in the primaries to
Blagojevich.

In what capacity was Obama involved?

Strategist. Which puts him at the heart of the matter.


Obama also endorsed and spoke for Blagojevich's reelection campaign
in 2006, long after it was known the Feds were breathing down his
neck.

If true, this is not good. Got a cite that shows public knowledge of
a federal investigation in progress prior to Obama's involvement? The
one in your sig line has nothing to do with the issue. Don't do that
lots of people are still on dialup and that was a movie link...

I found a perfect link. It's coverage from the day of Obama's endorsement
speech and mentions the ongoing investigation.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=4466894


According to Rahm Emanuel, Emanuel, Obama, Blagojevich's campaign co-
chair David Wilhelm, and another Blagojevich staffer "were the top
strategists of Blagojevich's 2002 gubernatorial victory," meeting
weekly to outline campaign strategies.

Have a cite for this?

The quote was given to the New Yorker by Emanuel himself and has been
referenced quite a bit. Here is an example from Jake Tapper, White House
correspondent from ABC news -

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/12/questions-arise.html


Since all the bad PR from Blagojevich's indictment, Wilhelm says
Emanuel "overstated" Obama's role. Before the scandal broke Wilhelm,
et al seemed fine with the comment. Quite the opposite in fact. This
experience was used as an example to show that Obama had the
political savy to win a presidential election.

Politicians often take credit where not due, Obama hasn't to my
knowledge but Emanuel well might. Third hand, not an indictment of
Obama.

Agreed. But he did work for the campaign and they had mutual friends like
fund raiser Tony Rezko. So it would also make sense that Obama had some
knowledge of the finances of the campaign.

The fact is we'll likely never get the truth. The truth probably benefits
nobody involved.


The initial gubernatorial campaign was where the "pay to play"
allegations first surfaced aginst Blagojevich. Blago got into a
fairly public family feud with his father-in-law Chicago Alderman Mel
Reynolds shortly after taking office and Alderman Mel accused him of
awarding contracts, state jobs, and positions in his administration
in exchange for campaign contributions.

To my understanding this is also the time Obama began distancing
himself from Blagojevich. Never again did they work together directly
although they had some parallel agendas and programs.

Not at all. If anything Obama distanced himself from Michael Madigan who
was the head of the Illinois Democratic party. His daughter Lisa madigan
turned over her investigation of Blagojevich to the Feds when she was
informed by Fitzgerald that he was investigating the matter which became
known as "Operation Board Games."


From here on down you've presented an indictment of Blago, nothing
contained within pertains to Obama.

My take is that when Obama was a political neophyte he attached
himself to those who shared some degree of commonality with the
intention of furthering programs he believed in with the benefit of
later, personal, advantage. This is how politics works. But to this
point in time no one has connected Obama with nefarious actions.

Nobody has ever indicted Daley either. Nor Blagojevich until very
recently.


Later, as Obama saw what went on in Springfield and Chicago, he had
recriminations for involvement with a few early characters and
distanced himself from any relationship. This is substantiated by the
Federal Attorney investigating Blago.

Obama's wife was Daley's personal assistant. She worked right along side
of Axelrod, Obama's campaign manager and John Harris who left Daley to go
work for Blagojevich and was indicted along with him.

Obama also had a close relationship with Rezko who was blagojevich's main
fund raiser. The national media has downplayed Obama's relationship with
Rezko as has Obama. But Obama was a regular visitor to Rezko's office
which has been documented by an FBI mole.


Note that I am not, was not, an Obama supporter. I did not vote for
him either. I definitely do not agree with his spending programs.
Others I support strongly like rebuilding our scientific leadership.
I see Obama as an intelligent man who rectifies past mistakes and does
not repeat them. But I will certainly be observing any future
connection with corruption under the microscope.

That is really all that needs to be done. The media needs to stop giving
him a pass and they need to keep a close eye on this administration. They
would have to be out of their minds to have even a whiff of corruption
come off of their sorry hides at this point. But as the Blagojevich
indictment shows, there is a belief that they won't get caught or what
they are doing is actually OK.


Blago set records for gubernatorial campaign fund raising. The feds
are particularly interested in the statistical improbabilty that
$25,000.00 donors recieved a disproportionate number of state jobs,
appointments, and contracts.

It's also worth noting that Obama sponsored legislation that made
Blagojevich's pay to play schemes involving state hospitals possible.
The hospital board members now under indictment contributed large
monetary donations to Obama's campaign.

None of this means that Obama is guilty of any wrong doing. But I
would sure like to see a candid interview between Obama and a
journalist who has some in depth knowledge of these scandals and
doesn't think that Obama is the second coming.

That will never happen.

As would I but neither of us should expect Obama to put himself at
risk even before his Presidency begins. He has a tremendous amount of
work ahead, more than any president can possibly cope with. Bush has
left an administration full of land mines for his successor. Almost
enough to make me wish McCain had won to be the scapegoat.

_Almost_.


I don't think things are nearly as bad as you think. The wars are
problematic but are winding down. The recession will be over before
anything Obama does has a chance to affect it. The biggest problem will
be that Democrats finally have all the power back and will want to push
their agenda which will involve spending lots of new spending. Not only
is there no money left but there is such an enormous debt that Obama will
be unable to make his party happy. He will have to be fiscally
conservative. There really is no other choice at this point.

--

Dan

CNC Videos - http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:37:01 -0600, Curtly Smellfartin wrote:

"Curly Surmudgeon" wrote in message
...

Did he? Seriously, I'm not blowing you off, I've seen no indication
that Obama worked "hard to get Blagojevich elected."


Data point: This topic has nothing to do with cnc machines,
metalworking, survivalism, kooks, or boats. Yet those are the newsgroups
you post to.

Your discussion is of a political nature, yet you did not include any
political groups in your cross-posting spam. When you discuss political
topics, they don't belong in

alt.machines.cnc,rec.crafts.metalworking,misc.surv ivalism,alt.usenet.kooks,or
rec.boats.

Your off-topic data points are trending you as a spammer to these
newsgroups. See, we were listening to you, it takes more than one data
point to produce a trend. Now that you proved your point, please go
away. Or are you too stupid to understand data points?

I notice that you did not trim the distribution list any more than those
you bitch about. Speak to the originator and trim the list yourself
before blaming others.

Nym-shifting troll.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 05:32:50 +0000, D Murphy wrote:

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 02:23:36 +0000, D Murphy wrote:

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

Did he? Seriously, I'm not blowing you off, I've seen no indication
that Obama worked "hard to get Blagojevich elected."


Obama, Emanuel, and David Wilhelm ran his first gubernatorial
campaign. Obama came over after his guy lost in the primaries to
Blagojevich.

In what capacity was Obama involved?

Strategist. Which puts him at the heart of the matter.


Obama also endorsed and spoke for Blagojevich's reelection campaign in
2006, long after it was known the Feds were breathing down his neck.

If true, this is not good. Got a cite that shows public knowledge of a
federal investigation in progress prior to Obama's involvement? The
one in your sig line has nothing to do with the issue. Don't do that
lots of people are still on dialup and that was a movie link...

I found a perfect link. It's coverage from the day of Obama's
endorsement speech and mentions the ongoing investigation.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=4466894

Well done, yours was the first accurate synopsis of an article that I've
read here in a very long time.

According to Rahm Emanuel, Emanuel, Obama, Blagojevich's campaign co-
chair David Wilhelm, and another Blagojevich staffer "were the top
strategists of Blagojevich's 2002 gubernatorial victory," meeting
weekly to outline campaign strategies.

Have a cite for this?

The quote was given to the New Yorker by Emanuel himself and has been
referenced quite a bit. Here is an example from Jake Tapper, White House
correspondent from ABC news -

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/12/questions-arise.html

Again, laudable accuracy. Good job.

Since all the bad PR from Blagojevich's indictment, Wilhelm says
Emanuel "overstated" Obama's role. Before the scandal broke Wilhelm,
et al seemed fine with the comment. Quite the opposite in fact. This
experience was used as an example to show that Obama had the political
savy to win a presidential election.

Politicians often take credit where not due, Obama hasn't to my
knowledge but Emanuel well might. Third hand, not an indictment of
Obama.

Agreed. But he did work for the campaign and they had mutual friends
like fund raiser Tony Rezko. So it would also make sense that Obama had
some knowledge of the finances of the campaign.

The fact is we'll likely never get the truth. The truth probably
benefits nobody involved.

Precisely.

The initial gubernatorial campaign was where the "pay to play"
allegations first surfaced aginst Blagojevich. Blago got into a fairly
public family feud with his father-in-law Chicago Alderman Mel
Reynolds shortly after taking office and Alderman Mel accused him of
awarding contracts, state jobs, and positions in his administration in
exchange for campaign contributions.

To my understanding this is also the time Obama began distancing
himself from Blagojevich. Never again did they work together directly
although they had some parallel agendas and programs.

Not at all. If anything Obama distanced himself from Michael Madigan who
was the head of the Illinois Democratic party. His daughter Lisa madigan
turned over her investigation of Blagojevich to the Feds when she was
informed by Fitzgerald that he was investigating the matter which became
known as "Operation Board Games."

Given your accuracy above, I'll take your word without demanding cites.

From here on down you've presented an indictment of Blago, nothing
contained within pertains to Obama.

My take is that when Obama was a political neophyte he attached himself
to those who shared some degree of commonality with the intention of
furthering programs he believed in with the benefit of later, personal,
advantage. This is how politics works. But to this point in time no
one has connected Obama with nefarious actions.

Nobody has ever indicted Daley either. Nor Blagojevich until very
recently.

You must mean Richard the Second, daddy was always in trouble but I get
your point. Mine is that I'm prone to an assumption of innocence when
judging what I perceive to be good intentions. Violate your trust and
I'm your worst nightmare.

Later, as Obama saw what went on in Springfield and Chicago, he had
recriminations for involvement with a few early characters and
distanced himself from any relationship. This is substantiated by the
Federal Attorney investigating Blago.

Obama's wife was Daley's personal assistant. She worked right along side
of Axelrod, Obama's campaign manager and John Harris who left Daley to
go work for Blagojevich and was indicted along with him.

Obama also had a close relationship with Rezko who was blagojevich's
main fund raiser. The national media has downplayed Obama's relationship
with Rezko as has Obama. But Obama was a regular visitor to Rezko's
office which has been documented by an FBI mole.

Yes, I'm aware of Rezko as well as Aires but have dismissed those
contacts until questionable acts arise.

Note that I am not, was not, an Obama supporter. I did not vote for
him either. I definitely do not agree with his spending programs.
Others I support strongly like rebuilding our scientific leadership. I
see Obama as an intelligent man who rectifies past mistakes and does
not repeat them. But I will certainly be observing any future
connection with corruption under the microscope.

That is really all that needs to be done. The media needs to stop giving
him a pass and they need to keep a close eye on this administration.
They would have to be out of their minds to have even a whiff of
corruption come off of their sorry hides at this point. But as the
Blagojevich indictment shows, there is a belief that they won't get
caught or what they are doing is actually OK.

Investigative Journalism has been another casualty of the Bush/Cheney
administration. Hopefully the web, and usenet, will pick up some of the
slack lost. Huffington Post is one good source, there are others.

Bush used my good will, and that of millions of others, to nefarious
purposes. I will haunt the lying mother****er until the end of his days,
which I hope will very, very, long and painful.

You're right that we must let politicians know that we are not going to
take this bull**** any longer. I do my part by speaking against the
known bad guys, picketing a busy intersection when in the United States,
letter writing, sending editorials, etc.

Bush, never again!

Blago set records for gubernatorial campaign fund raising. The feds
are particularly interested in the statistical improbabilty that
$25,000.00 donors recieved a disproportionate number of state jobs,
appointments, and contracts.

It's also worth noting that Obama sponsored legislation that made
Blagojevich's pay to play schemes involving state hospitals possible.
The hospital board members now under indictment contributed large
monetary donations to Obama's campaign.

None of this means that Obama is guilty of any wrong doing. But I
would sure like to see a candid interview between Obama and a
journalist who has some in depth knowledge of these scandals and
doesn't think that Obama is the second coming.

That will never happen.

As would I but neither of us should expect Obama to put himself at risk
even before his Presidency begins. He has a tremendous amount of work
ahead, more than any president can possibly cope with. Bush has left
an administration full of land mines for his successor. Almost enough
to make me wish McCain had won to be the scapegoat.

_Almost_.


I don't think things are nearly as bad as you think.

And I think things are worse than anyone knows.

The wars are problematic but are winding down.

Not so, Obama will remove troops from Iraq but has already commented on
sending 20,000 more to Afghanistan.

The recession will be over before anything Obama does has a chance to
affect it.

Not possible, there are too many skeletons in the closet, too much cash
being printed out of nothingness, an inevitability of rampant inflation,
and the economy continues deteriorate. Not until markets are de-
leveraged will we have even an opportunity to stabilize.

The biggest problem will
be that Democrats finally have all the power back and will want to push
their agenda which will involve spending lots of new spending. Not only
is there no money left but there is such an enormous debt that Obama
will be unable to make his party happy. He will have to be fiscally
conservative. There really is no other choice at this point.

The biggest problem from my perspective is that no one is any position of
power is even capable of, let alone speaking of, returning our civil
liberties. The tools that Bush/Cheney put into action will be abused by
future administrations until they are permanently, undeniably, lawfully,
revoked or rescinded.

Like the Patriot Act. Not only the BUsh administration but every single
signatory must be tried for treason.

And thanks again for an intelligent, honest, dialog even if we don't see
eye-to-eye it is refreshing to speak with you.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

Obama also had a close relationship with Rezko who was blagojevich's
main fund raiser. The national media has downplayed Obama's
relationship with Rezko as has Obama. But Obama was a regular visitor
to Rezko's office which has been documented by an FBI mole.

Yes, I'm aware of Rezko as well as Aires but have dismissed those
contacts until questionable acts arise.

I think Aires is a case where Obama had to rub elbows with undesirable
types in order to garner political support in his district. Rezko is a
different deal. Aires could be considered morally corrupt by some. Last I
knew we still had freedom of speech and as far as his crimes go, he had
his day in court. I'm not real big on moral crusaders one way or the
other.

Rezko on the other hand is a corrupt middleman. He puts the money
together with the influence and seeks personal enrichment along the way.
If some reports are to be believed he is allegedly one of the architects
of the "combine." Which is a group of corrupt Democrats and Republicans.
It was a brilliant move for him really. Twice the opportunity to make
money.


Note that I am not, was not, an Obama supporter. I did not vote for
him either. I definitely do not agree with his spending programs.
Others I support strongly like rebuilding our scientific leadership.
I see Obama as an intelligent man who rectifies past mistakes and
does not repeat them. But I will certainly be observing any future
connection with corruption under the microscope.

That is really all that needs to be done. The media needs to stop
giving him a pass and they need to keep a close eye on this
administration. They would have to be out of their minds to have even
a whiff of corruption come off of their sorry hides at this point.
But as the Blagojevich indictment shows, there is a belief that they
won't get caught or what they are doing is actually OK.

Investigative Journalism has been another casualty of the Bush/Cheney
administration. Hopefully the web, and usenet, will pick up some of
the slack lost. Huffington Post is one good source, there are others.

Journalism is a casualty of TV and the internet. Newspapers haven't
figured out how to make money in this new era of information and it's the
lack of money that's killing journalism. They simply can't afford to have
people investigate a story for a month or more.


Bush used my good will, and that of millions of others, to nefarious
purposes. I will haunt the lying mother****er until the end of his
days, which I hope will very, very, long and painful.

You're right that we must let politicians know that we are not going
to take this bull**** any longer. I do my part by speaking against
the known bad guys, picketing a busy intersection when in the United
States, letter writing, sending editorials, etc.

Bush, never again!

I never cared much for him but I don't think he's evil or corrupt either.
My take is that he's a somewhat dimwitted moral crusader. Like I said
earlier, I don't have much use for crusaders of any stripe. He's corrupt
in the sense that he believes his morals trump all. But Rezko tried to
buy his influence and get Fitzgerald booted out of Chicago and got
nowhere.

I'll bet that if he offered some moral imperative rather than cash,
Fitzgerald would be long gone. The fact that Fitzgerald put away a
Republican governer didn't even influence Bush. If anything it
strengthened his resolve. If Rezko could have shown Fitzgerald to be pro
abortion or against the war, then he'd be gone.


Blago set records for gubernatorial campaign fund raising. The feds
are particularly interested in the statistical improbabilty that
$25,000.00 donors recieved a disproportionate number of state jobs,
appointments, and contracts.

It's also worth noting that Obama sponsored legislation that made
Blagojevich's pay to play schemes involving state hospitals
possible. The hospital board members now under indictment
contributed large monetary donations to Obama's campaign.

None of this means that Obama is guilty of any wrong doing. But I
would sure like to see a candid interview between Obama and a
journalist who has some in depth knowledge of these scandals and
doesn't think that Obama is the second coming.

That will never happen.

As would I but neither of us should expect Obama to put himself at
risk even before his Presidency begins. He has a tremendous amount
of work ahead, more than any president can possibly cope with. Bush
has left an administration full of land mines for his successor.
Almost enough to make me wish McCain had won to be the scapegoat.

_Almost_.


I don't think things are nearly as bad as you think.

And I think things are worse than anyone knows.

The wars are problematic but are winding down.

Not so, Obama will remove troops from Iraq but has already commented
on sending 20,000 more to Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was set in motion when Bush was still a coke snorting party
animal. Read up on Charlie Wilson speaking of Texans that ****ed things
up. Or he did the right thing and we failed to follow through depending
on your perspective.


The recession will be over before anything Obama does has a chance to
affect it.

Not possible, there are too many skeletons in the closet, too much
cash being printed out of nothingness, an inevitability of rampant
inflation, and the economy continues deteriorate. Not until markets
are de- leveraged will we have even an opportunity to stabilize.

The real bankruptcy is still a 15-20 years away. Despite all the rhetoric
the underpinnings of the US economy are still sound. The government and
its debt are shakey. The two are not necesarily tied together.


The biggest problem will
be that Democrats finally have all the power back and will want to
push their agenda which will involve spending lots of new spending.
Not only is there no money left but there is such an enormous debt
that Obama will be unable to make his party happy. He will have to be
fiscally conservative. There really is no other choice at this point.

The biggest problem from my perspective is that no one is any position
of power is even capable of, let alone speaking of, returning our
civil liberties. The tools that Bush/Cheney put into action will be
abused by future administrations until they are permanently,
undeniably, lawfully, revoked or rescinded.

Yup. And every day we lose a little more. On top the the Republicans
paranoia you have the Democrats who believe that you should be on camera
every moment you are outside. They also want to track your car with GPS
and dictate what you can listen to on radio and TV.


Like the Patriot Act. Not only the BUsh administration but every
single signatory must be tried for treason.

Better to just repeal it and not get all idealistic about it.


And thanks again for an intelligent, honest, dialog even if we don't
see eye-to-eye it is refreshing to speak with you.


No sweat. I'm not really into the name calling deal anyway which seems to
be the main driver of some peoples behaviour.

--

Dan

CNC Videos - http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

Obama also had a close relationship with Rezko who was blagojevich's
main fund raiser. The national media has downplayed Obama's
relationship with Rezko as has Obama. But Obama was a regular visitor
to Rezko's office which has been documented by an FBI mole.

Yes, I'm aware of Rezko as well as Aires but have dismissed those
contacts until questionable acts arise.

I think Aires is a case where Obama had to rub elbows with undesirable
types in order to garner political support in his district. Rezko is a
different deal. Aires could be considered morally corrupt by some. Last I
knew we still had freedom of speech and as far as his crimes go, he had
his day in court. I'm not real big on moral crusaders one way or the
other.

Rezko on the other hand is a corrupt middleman. He puts the money
together with the influence and seeks personal enrichment along the way.
If some reports are to be believed he is allegedly one of the architects
of the "combine." Which is a group of corrupt Democrats and Republicans.
It was a brilliant move for him really. Twice the opportunity to make
money.


Note that I am not, was not, an Obama supporter. I did not vote for
him either. I definitely do not agree with his spending programs.
Others I support strongly like rebuilding our scientific leadership.
I see Obama as an intelligent man who rectifies past mistakes and
does not repeat them. But I will certainly be observing any future
connection with corruption under the microscope.

That is really all that needs to be done. The media needs to stop
giving him a pass and they need to keep a close eye on this
administration. They would have to be out of their minds to have even
a whiff of corruption come off of their sorry hides at this point.
But as the Blagojevich indictment shows, there is a belief that they
won't get caught or what they are doing is actually OK.

Investigative Journalism has been another casualty of the Bush/Cheney
administration. Hopefully the web, and usenet, will pick up some of
the slack lost. Huffington Post is one good source, there are others.

Journalism is a casualty of TV and the internet. Newspapers haven't
figured out how to make money in this new era of information and it's the
lack of money that's killing journalism. They simply can't afford to have
people investigate a story for a month or more.


Bush used my good will, and that of millions of others, to nefarious
purposes. I will haunt the lying mother****er until the end of his
days, which I hope will very, very, long and painful.

You're right that we must let politicians know that we are not going
to take this bull**** any longer. I do my part by speaking against
the known bad guys, picketing a busy intersection when in the United
States, letter writing, sending editorials, etc.

Bush, never again!

I never cared much for him but I don't think he's evil or corrupt either.
My take is that he's a somewhat dimwitted moral crusader. Like I said
earlier, I don't have much use for crusaders of any stripe. He's corrupt
in the sense that he believes his morals trump all. But Rezko tried to
buy his influence and get Fitzgerald booted out of Chicago and got
nowhere.

I'll bet that if he offered some moral imperative rather than cash,
Fitzgerald would be long gone. The fact that Fitzgerald put away a
Republican governer didn't even influence Bush. If anything it
strengthened his resolve. If Rezko could have shown Fitzgerald to be pro
abortion or against the war, then he'd be gone.


Blago set records for gubernatorial campaign fund raising. The feds
are particularly interested in the statistical improbabilty that
$25,000.00 donors recieved a disproportionate number of state jobs,
appointments, and contracts.

It's also worth noting that Obama sponsored legislation that made
Blagojevich's pay to play schemes involving state hospitals
possible. The hospital board members now under indictment
contributed large monetary donations to Obama's campaign.

None of this means that Obama is guilty of any wrong doing. But I
would sure like to see a candid interview between Obama and a
journalist who has some in depth knowledge of these scandals and
doesn't think that Obama is the second coming.

That will never happen.

As would I but neither of us should expect Obama to put himself at
risk even before his Presidency begins. He has a tremendous amount
of work ahead, more than any president can possibly cope with. Bush
has left an administration full of land mines for his successor.
Almost enough to make me wish McCain had won to be the scapegoat.

_Almost_.


I don't think things are nearly as bad as you think.

And I think things are worse than anyone knows.

The wars are problematic but are winding down.

Not so, Obama will remove troops from Iraq but has already commented
on sending 20,000 more to Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was set in motion when Bush was still a coke snorting party
animal. Read up on Charlie Wilson speaking of Texans that ****ed things
up. Or he did the right thing and we failed to follow through depending
on your perspective.


The recession will be over before anything Obama does has a chance to
affect it.

Not possible, there are too many skeletons in the closet, too much
cash being printed out of nothingness, an inevitability of rampant
inflation, and the economy continues deteriorate. Not until markets
are de- leveraged will we have even an opportunity to stabilize.

The real bankruptcy is still a 15-20 years away. Despite all the rhetoric
the underpinnings of the US economy are still sound. The government and
its debt are shakey. The two are not necesarily tied together.


The biggest problem will
be that Democrats finally have all the power back and will want to
push their agenda which will involve spending lots of new spending.
Not only is there no money left but there is such an enormous debt
that Obama will be unable to make his party happy. He will have to be
fiscally conservative. There really is no other choice at this point.

The biggest problem from my perspective is that no one is any position
of power is even capable of, let alone speaking of, returning our
civil liberties. The tools that Bush/Cheney put into action will be
abused by future administrations until they are permanently,
undeniably, lawfully, revoked or rescinded.

Yup. And every day we lose a little more. On top the the Republicans
paranoia you have the Democrats who believe that you should be on camera
every moment you are outside. They also want to track your car with GPS
and dictate what you can listen to on radio and TV.


Like the Patriot Act. Not only the BUsh administration but every
single signatory must be tried for treason.

Better to just repeal it and not get all idealistic about it.


And thanks again for an intelligent, honest, dialog even if we don't
see eye-to-eye it is refreshing to speak with you.


No sweat. I'm not really into the name calling deal anyway which seems to
be the main driver of some peoples behaviour.

--

Dan


Ayres did not have his day in court. Why he is free.

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 22:37:01 -0600, "Curtly Smellfartin"
wrote:



"Curly Surmudgeon" wrote in message
...

Did he? Seriously, I'm not blowing you off, I've seen no indication
that Obama worked "hard to get Blagojevich elected."


Data point: This topic has nothing to do with cnc machines, metalworking,
survivalism, kooks, or boats. Yet those are the newsgroups you post to.

Your discussion is of a political nature, yet you did not include any
political groups in your cross-posting spam. When you discuss political
topics, they don't belong in
alt.machines.cnc,rec.crafts.metalworking,misc.sur vivalism,alt.usenet.kooks,or
rec.boats.

Your off-topic data points are trending you as a spammer to these
newsgroups. See, we were listening to you, it takes more than one data point
to produce a trend. Now that you proved your point, please go away. Or are
you too stupid to understand data points?

All praise gummer & the lying winger crowds!!!

Found those "WMDs" yet?
--
Cliff

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:25:53 +0000, D Murphy wrote:

Curly Surmudgeon wrote in
:

Obama also had a close relationship with Rezko who was blagojevich's
main fund raiser. The national media has downplayed Obama's
relationship with Rezko as has Obama. But Obama was a regular visitor
to Rezko's office which has been documented by an FBI mole.

Yes, I'm aware of Rezko as well as Aires but have dismissed those
contacts until questionable acts arise.

I think Aires is a case where Obama had to rub elbows with undesirable
types in order to garner political support in his district. Rezko is a
different deal. Aires could be considered morally corrupt by some. Last
I knew we still had freedom of speech and as far as his crimes go, he
had his day in court. I'm not real big on moral crusaders one way or the
other.

Rezko on the other hand is a corrupt middleman. He puts the money
together with the influence and seeks personal enrichment along the way.
If some reports are to be believed he is allegedly one of the architects
of the "combine." Which is a group of corrupt Democrats and Republicans.
It was a brilliant move for him really. Twice the opportunity to make
money.

True, he will most likely spend time in the public hotel too.

Note that I am not, was not, an Obama supporter. I did not vote for
him either. I definitely do not agree with his spending programs.
Others I support strongly like rebuilding our scientific leadership.
I see Obama as an intelligent man who rectifies past mistakes and
does not repeat them. But I will certainly be observing any future
connection with corruption under the microscope.

That is really all that needs to be done. The media needs to stop
giving him a pass and they need to keep a close eye on this
administration. They would have to be out of their minds to have even
a whiff of corruption come off of their sorry hides at this point. But
as the Blagojevich indictment shows, there is a belief that they won't
get caught or what they are doing is actually OK.

Investigative Journalism has been another casualty of the Bush/Cheney
administration. Hopefully the web, and usenet, will pick up some of
the slack lost. Huffington Post is one good source, there are others.

Journalism is a casualty of TV and the internet. Newspapers haven't
figured out how to make money in this new era of information and it's
the lack of money that's killing journalism. They simply can't afford to
have people investigate a story for a month or more.

Partially but Bush/Cheney gutted _investigative_ journalism in a full
frontal assault.

Bush used my good will, and that of millions of others, to nefarious
purposes. I will haunt the lying mother****er until the end of his
days, which I hope will very, very, long and painful.

You're right that we must let politicians know that we are not going to
take this bull**** any longer. I do my part by speaking against the
known bad guys, picketing a busy intersection when in the United
States, letter writing, sending editorials, etc.

Bush, never again!

I never cared much for him but I don't think he's evil or corrupt
either. My take is that he's a somewhat dimwitted moral crusader. Like I
said earlier, I don't have much use for crusaders of any stripe. He's
corrupt in the sense that he believes his morals trump all. But Rezko
tried to buy his influence and get Fitzgerald booted out of Chicago and
got nowhere.

Evil? Empty term. Bush is/was a puppet, as you say a "dimwitted moral
crusader" but if America is a nation of law then Bush and his cronys must
brought to justice or we will suffer further onslaughts against freedom.

I'll bet that if he offered some moral imperative rather than cash,
Fitzgerald would be long gone. The fact that Fitzgerald put away a
Republican governer didn't even influence Bush. If anything it
strengthened his resolve. If Rezko could have shown Fitzgerald to be pro
abortion or against the war, then he'd be gone.


Blago set records for gubernatorial campaign fund raising. The feds
are particularly interested in the statistical improbabilty that
$25,000.00 donors recieved a disproportionate number of state jobs,
appointments, and contracts.

It's also worth noting that Obama sponsored legislation that made
Blagojevich's pay to play schemes involving state hospitals
possible. The hospital board members now under indictment
contributed large monetary donations to Obama's campaign.

None of this means that Obama is guilty of any wrong doing. But I
would sure like to see a candid interview between Obama and a
journalist who has some in depth knowledge of these scandals and
doesn't think that Obama is the second coming.

That will never happen.

As would I but neither of us should expect Obama to put himself at
risk even before his Presidency begins. He has a tremendous amount
of work ahead, more than any president can possibly cope with. Bush
has left an administration full of land mines for his successor.
Almost enough to make me wish McCain had won to be the scapegoat.

_Almost_.


I don't think things are nearly as bad as you think.

And I think things are worse than anyone knows.

The wars are problematic but are winding down.

Not so, Obama will remove troops from Iraq but has already commented on
sending 20,000 more to Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was set in motion when Bush was still a coke snorting party
animal. Read up on Charlie Wilson speaking of Texans that ****ed things
up. Or he did the right thing and we failed to follow through depending
on your perspective.

I'm of the latter opinion. No troops, one small nuke on Tora Bora the
day Osama took credit. End of problem. Whether or not 9/11 was a
conspiracy, government involvement or solely bin Laden, none matter when
Osama took credit. At that point he signed his own death warrant.

Bush ****ed that up too, squandering world-wide sympathy, involving our
military into a ground war, giving moslems another cause to hate us,
squandering precious national resources and a death-spiral.

The recession will be over before anything Obama does has a chance to
affect it.

Not possible, there are too many skeletons in the closet, too much cash
being printed out of nothingness, an inevitability of rampant
inflation, and the economy continues deteriorate. Not until markets
are de- leveraged will we have even an opportunity to stabilize.

The real bankruptcy is still a 15-20 years away. Despite all the
rhetoric the underpinnings of the US economy are still sound. The
government and its debt are shakey. The two are not necesarily tied
together.

One word, "derivatives."

The biggest problem will
be that Democrats finally have all the power back and will want to
push their agenda which will involve spending lots of new spending.
Not only is there no money left but there is such an enormous debt
that Obama will be unable to make his party happy. He will have to be
fiscally conservative. There really is no other choice at this point.

The biggest problem from my perspective is that no one is any position
of power is even capable of, let alone speaking of, returning our civil
liberties. The tools that Bush/Cheney put into action will be abused
by future administrations until they are permanently, undeniably,
lawfully, revoked or rescinded.

Yup. And every day we lose a little more. On top the the Republicans
paranoia you have the Democrats who believe that you should be on camera
every moment you are outside. They also want to track your car with GPS
and dictate what you can listen to on radio and TV.

You got it. Want OnStar?

Like the Patriot Act. Not only the BUsh administration but every
single signatory must be tried for treason.

Better to just repeal it and not get all idealistic about it.

No, that invites more of the same behavior. The criminal behavior
pattern of politicians must be broken. Bringing them to trial is the
legal avenue.

And thanks again for an intelligent, honest, dialog even if we don't
see eye-to-eye it is refreshing to speak with you.


No sweat. I'm not really into the name calling deal anyway which seems
to be the main driver of some peoples behaviour.

I sometimes lose patience and devolve into their petty games. It's nice
to have an honest conversation without the trolls.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 Days More of George Walker Bush Plundering the Economy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
[snip]

I'm of the latter opinion. No troops, one small nuke on Tora Bora the
day Osama took credit. End of problem. Whether or not 9/11 was a
conspiracy, government involvement or solely bin Laden, none matter when
Osama took credit. At that point he signed his own death warrant.

Bush ****ed that up too, squandering world-wide sympathy, involving our
military into a ground war, giving moslems another cause to hate us,
squandering precious national resources and a death-spiral.

That would have been a threshold we would have deeply regretted
crossing, and in the worst possible region of the world in which to
cross it.

The Neocons are just itching to begin deploying so-called tactical
nukes, maybe against Iran. I'm rather surprised they haven't yet. But,
in any case, as a technical matter, they would not have gotten the job
done in Tora Bora.

Moreover, world opinion would have shifted even more rapidly and
irrevocably against us, and the entire Islamic world, including those
who are kinda, sorta with us, would have risen as one in opposition.
All they had to have done was commit sufficient resources to Afghanistan
in the first place, and then employ them intelligently and in a timely
manner, and they'd most likely have bagged ObL. Instead, American
forces were used to push him towards the Pakistani border, and
unreliable indigenous forces were the only ones positioned to prevent
him from slipping across. Foolish. It struck me at the time that they
must not have really wanted to catch him.

Jeff

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:45:52 -0600, Jeff Mc wrote:



The Neocons are just itching to begin deploying so-called tactical
nukes, maybe against Iran. I'm rather surprised they haven't yet.
Jeff

Dumb.