On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.


I think you are grossly minimizing the impact of a GM sinking. It's not
just GM that will sink.

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 10:12:02 -0500, Boater wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.


I think you are grossly minimizing the impact of a GM sinking. It's not
just GM that will sink.

There is, undoubtedly, someone out there in Never-Never Land who gives a
schitt (your word) about what you think.
--
John H.

JohnH wrote:

There is, undoubtedly, someone out there in Never-Never Land who gives a
schitt (your word) about what you think.


*That's* the Herring known and loved everywhere.

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need
a complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in
today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a
government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process,
makes sense to me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.


I think you are grossly minimizing the impact of a GM sinking. It's not
just GM that will sink.


Harry, the fallacy of simple bailout for GM is that it only serves to extend
the inevitable for GM and for those other businesses that rely on it without
major and immediate changes to GM's structure. Bankruptcy or no
bankruptcy, Chapter 11, or Chapter 7, the relationships are going to
change and jobs and benefits are going to be lost. Whatever market share GM
ends up with following a reorganization or the lost market share that will
be picked up by Ford, Toyota or Honda if GM goes belly-up will determine
what level business and therefore employment that the related companies
maintain.

The problem may be exasperated by the economic meltdown, but it existed well
before September 15th.
Collectively, GM, Ford and Chrysler have structures and capacities that are
too big to support their shrinking market share. Ford has recognized this
and has been streamlining their business and cutting back on the number of
different vechicles they produce. GM has not. Chrylser barely exists as it
is.

A bailout simply extends existing relationships and contracts until they run
out of money again.

Eisboch

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:57:02 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

A bailout simply extends existing relationships and contracts until they run
out of money again.

Exactly. We'll be feeding GM and the UAW for the forseeable future.

Screw 'em - let 'em go down.

Hard if they don't do something positive.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business
need a complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive
entity in today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization,
prepackaged with a government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing
during the process, makes sense to me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.


I think you are grossly minimizing the impact of a GM sinking. It's not
just GM that will sink.

In the end it will be GM executives and management and UAW management
and union members who will suffer the most, but they have had the
biggest gain over the last 40 years. The sale of raw materials will move
from GM to Ford, Toyota, Honda and other manufactures in the US. The
economy will take a hit for a few years but will will survived just like
we did when the steel industry collapsed.

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:38:58 -0500, BAR wrote:

Boater wrote:
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business
need a complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive
entity in today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization,
prepackaged with a government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing
during the process, makes sense to me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.

I think you are grossly minimizing the impact of a GM sinking. It's not
just GM that will sink.

In the end it will be GM executives and management and UAW management
and union members who will suffer the most, but they have had the
biggest gain over the last 40 years. The sale of raw materials will move
from GM to Ford, Toyota, Honda and other manufactures in the US. The
economy will take a hit for a few years but will will survived just like
we did when the steel industry collapsed.

And the heavy machinery market and the machine tool business, etc.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 10:12:02 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.

I think you are grossly minimizing the impact of a GM sinking. It's not
just GM that will sink.

Yeah - the UAW and that's a good thing.

Delphi has been operating under Chapter 11 rules for a long tmie -
it's still around.

Nobody else is going to be seriously hurt if GM goes down. Whoever is
left over, namely Ford, will be stronger, leaner and more able to
compete with Honda, Toyota, BMW, yada, yada, yada. Ford's cost to
build a car or truck is now down to around $60/hr from $85/hr which is
GM's cost. Honda, et.al., are around $43/hr on average.

Simple fact. GM is a dinosaur, Wagoner is an idiot, the UAW was
greedy and GM's board was derelict in it's fudiciary duty.

Let them die and the UAW with them.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in
today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.

Agreed. To give you an idea how nasty the GM-UAW-CAW thing is follow this.

Canada is having a crisis right now with interferance of its democracy. GM
has asked Canada for $6.8 billion. The economic impact to Canada would be
equivelent of about $70 billion US to the US taxpayer.

It is believed GM-CAW calls up a socialist party and askes to get this money
at any cost ASAP. The NDP makes a bribe to a separatist party known as the
Bloc for their unmitigated support to over throw the current government.
They agree.

They then approach a minority opposition party called the Liberals that has
a leader even Liberals don't like. He is in heat to become the Prime
Minister of Canada with a junta coalition. Fortunately our PM and Govenor
General narrowly avoid this coup d'etat. But they are about to try again
after replacing the Liberal leader as 68% of the Canadians oppose the junta.
That kind of majority hasn't been seen in over 100 years!

There are many that would not accept a GM product for free, unless it was to
burn it. Separation polls indicate if this hhappens, 64% of Albertans favor
leaving confederation, which will inevitablly result in Canada as you know
it breaking up.

GM is screwing with your neighboors democracy, along the worlds most longest
unprotected border to the north of you. I know the US is in crisis, but you
don't want a natural resource source like Canada doing some leftist
socialist Venzuela type nationalisation, you might want to consider the
impact of this and slap GM hard into unitigated chapter 11 before they do
more damage than you know.

Fire the board and management while you are at it. There is no otehrs more
deserving of being fired with cause than that lot.