Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:42:35 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Boater" wrote in message
...


Sorry, but if we can bail out the useless pushers of paper on wall
street
and get absolutely nothing in return, we can help the millions of real
working Americans whose jobs depend on the domestic auto industry. I
don't
buy into the concept that bankruptcy reorganization will work for
Chrysler, Ford or GM.



Most of the members of Congress now realize that in their rush to do
something, they really screwed up the TARP bailout. They won't make that
mistake again.

The fairest and most efficient means to save the auto industry is through
a
government (taxpayer) supported, pre-packaged Chapter 11 filing. They
don't go immediately out of business.
Current workers continue working. But, a federal judge will arbitrate
new
contracts, vendor payments, and the negotiations required to accomplish
these. Government (taxpayer) financial support can be given subject to
specific uses for the money, as overseen by the bankrupcy court.

Exactly.

Perfectly phrased.

But he did decribe chapter 11 as it is. Chapter 7 is out of business.
Chapter 11 is where a judge gets union, management and creditors together
and orders a pan. If a plan fails, then on to chapter 11.

But if they work out a real plan, no BS kind of plan, then they continue
operations and work out of chapter 11.

Chapter 11 is NOT the end of GM, it is however the end of GM-UAW BS.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching. But
they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable, means they
need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 07:14:20 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...28184421.html?
mod=rss_opinion_main

Wagoner and Nardelli sure have their glum faces on in that picture. I
wonder if they practiced in front of a mirror. ;-)

Could be the look of a narcisist that just realized they are not going to
get a free dip into the tax payers wallet.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 09:54:26 -0400, "Don White"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...s_opinion_main

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.



On some newscast, I heard that a US Congressman or Senator made the
comment
to the 'Big 3' that maybe they were making their vehicles 'too good" and
therefore repeat/replacement sales are slow.
If this is true, what a sad commentary on those in power.


Liberal mentality.
--
John H.

Agreed. For what I paid for my truck I expect it to be the best, low
maintenace and high quality.

If I wanted cheap crap, I would get a 4x4 truck from China, under $10K. Or
a Nano from India for $2500. And at $2500 if it lasted 3-4 years and the
transmission died like my last GM did in 6 months, I would just buy a new
one.

But my guess is China and India are getting quality in. At one point
Japanese was low quality, but they improved at a long but steady rate to
become the better quality choice. These countries will do the same.

Like TVs, computers and other stuff. Probalby too late to fix GM unless you
like spending $10 to save $1.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 17:57:57 -0700, "Canuck57"
wrote:


"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 07:14:20 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...28184421.html?
mod=rss_opinion_main
Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge
Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.
Personally, I can't see Chrysler surviving. Ford, yes, and a much
smaller and different GM.


Exactly. Chrysler hired an outside bankruptcy law firm yesterday. They
are preparing for the inevitable.

GM needs to replace Wagoner. He is so out of touch with reality that he
can't be in charge of
reorganizing.

The Ford guy (ex-Boeing) seems to be a little more pro-active and may
be ok. He's only been there for two years
and has already made some serious changes to Ford's overall business
structure.

Eisboch

Sorry, but if we can bail out the useless pushers of paper on wall street
and get absolutely nothing in return, we can help the millions of real
working Americans whose jobs depend on the domestic auto industry. I don't
buy into the concept that bankruptcy reorganization will work for
Chrysler, Ford or GM.

Are you going to bail out small business too?

I ask as most of the 500,000 people suffering in November, and maybe a
million in December are mostly non-union, non-auto. Who is bailing out the
little guy?

Might as well put the whole nation on welfare.

The only sane solution is to cut waste and get more competative with less
debt. If you can't do that like 300 million other people, you are screwed.
Letting Detroit into the public purse, a bad mistake for everyone in the
end.

Saving the financial sector was important - saving the automakers
isn't. The financial sector affects 100% of the economy, the auto
industry is lucky if it affects 10% of the economy.

Let 'em sink and the UAW with them. Once GM and Chrysler are gone,
Ford can survive and deserves to - Ford is at least doing something
about saving itself right here, right now.
--

Happy Holidays and Merry Whatever It Is
That ****es Liberals Off.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:48:45 -0700, "Canuck57"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching. But
they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable, means they
need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

I just looked again - all three are worth less than 6 billion total in
equity.

GM is asking for $25 billion?

Uh huh. Amazing ain't it?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.

Let 'em die - that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
--

Happy Holidays and Merry Whatever It Is
That ****es Liberals Off.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

wrote in message
t...

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:42:35 -0500, Eisboch wrote:


The fairest and most efficient means to save the auto industry is
through a government (taxpayer) supported, pre-packaged Chapter 11
filing. They don't go immediately out of business. Current workers
continue working. But, a federal judge will arbitrate new contracts,
vendor payments, and the negotiations required to accomplish these.
Government (taxpayer) financial support can be given subject to specific
uses for the money, as overseen by the bankrupcy court.

It works.

I'm not sure bankruptcy court would work in this case. Bankruptcy court
is good for getting people to do the same things, only cheaper.
Detroit's supply chain, is already working on very thin margins, as
evidenced by the number of in-bankruptcy companies, e.g., Delphi. It
seems to me, a more innovative approach is needed for long term
viability. Bankruptcy courts are not known for being innovative. I tend
to prefer Frank's bill.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press...ss111708.shtml



A Chapter 11 filing does not, in itself, reorganize a company and certainly
is *not* a means for "getting people to do the same things, only cheaper".
All it does is protects the company from involuntary bankrupcy by putting
the vendor bill collectors, banks and lawsuits at bay while an effort is
made to reorganize and satisfy current finanical obligations via
negotiation. While protected in Chapter 11 a plan is developed to
reorganize, refinance, and re-negotiate existing (and in GM's case -
obsolete) contracts. Overseen by a bankruptcy court, the plan, agreed to
by all concerned parties is generated and when implimentated, the company
emerges from Chapter 11. If a plan cannot be produced that is approved by
all concerned parties, the company usually goes belly up in Chapter 7.

Barney Frank's bill limits the ability to truly reorganize the auto
companies. It's simply throwing money into the same sink hole. Six-eight
months from now they'll be back, needing more survival money.

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

Eisboch

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He said
that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ... *plus*
an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in the future,
GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back and
completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for sure.
Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will close. But
reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the better chance it
has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Eisboch

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 00:08:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He said
that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ... *plus*
an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in the future,
GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back and
completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for sure.
Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will close. But
reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the better chance it
has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Rick Wagoner is so out of touch with reality, it's scary that a guy
like him could actually be running a major manufacturing firm.

GM is a UAW benefits company who just happens to make cars as a side
line. Until they get rid of the UAW contracts plus the umpteen
zillion dealerships they aren't going to survive and no amount of
taxpayer money is going to save them. It's money down the UAW rat
hole.

TANSTAAFL and GM/UAW leadership is trying to hang on to the free lunch
as long as possible.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.