Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:42:35 -0500, Eisboch wrote:


The fairest and most efficient means to save the auto industry is
through a government (taxpayer) supported, pre-packaged Chapter 11
filing. They don't go immediately out of business. Current workers
continue working. But, a federal judge will arbitrate new contracts,
vendor payments, and the negotiations required to accomplish these.
Government (taxpayer) financial support can be given subject to specific
uses for the money, as overseen by the bankrupcy court.

It works.

I'm not sure bankruptcy court would work in this case. Bankruptcy court
is good for getting people to do the same things, only cheaper.
Detroit's supply chain, is already working on very thin margins, as
evidenced by the number of in-bankruptcy companies, e.g., Delphi. It
seems to me, a more innovative approach is needed for long term
viability. Bankruptcy courts are not known for being innovative. I tend
to prefer Frank's bill.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press...ss111708.shtml

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:17:18 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 07:25:24 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...s_opinion_main

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.

Ford doesn't want them. They are trying to downsize themselves. They've
sold their stakes in Saab, Jaguar, most of Mazda and are thinking of
dumping
Volvo.

That's probably true, but Chrysler does have a few products lines that
would merge very nicely with the overall Ford product line - I'm
thinking Jeep in particular if there was only one. And their design
team could do a lot for upgrading Ford's design group which has been
stuck in neutral for a long time. When was the last time they
upgraded the Crown Vic for example - that design has been around since
1999/2000 I think.

The Crown Vic is no longer available to the public. (as of 2008) Ford still
makes them for fleet sales only ... police and taxie cabs. The Mercury
version is still available to the public, but not for long.

Grand Marquis - Crown Vic with a snobby attitude.

I had forgotten about that actually - they did cease production on
them. I think the Taurus/Sable too if I'm not mistaken.

Ford will end up with about three global car platforms and trucks.

Probably, but I still think that some of the Chrysler platforms would
make for a great addition to Ford and help rebrand Ford as a more
modern, up-to-date manufacturer.

--

"Do what you can, with what you
have, where you are."

Theodore Roosevelt.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:42:35 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Boater" wrote in message
...


Sorry, but if we can bail out the useless pushers of paper on wall street
and get absolutely nothing in return, we can help the millions of real
working Americans whose jobs depend on the domestic auto industry. I don't
buy into the concept that bankruptcy reorganization will work for
Chrysler, Ford or GM.



Most of the members of Congress now realize that in their rush to do
something, they really screwed up the TARP bailout. They won't make that
mistake again.

The fairest and most efficient means to save the auto industry is through a
government (taxpayer) supported, pre-packaged Chapter 11 filing. They
don't go immediately out of business.
Current workers continue working. But, a federal judge will arbitrate new
contracts, vendor payments, and the negotiations required to accomplish
these. Government (taxpayer) financial support can be given subject to
specific uses for the money, as overseen by the bankrupcy court.

Exactly.

Perfectly phrased.

--

"Far better it is to dare mighty things,
to win glorious triumphs even though
checkered by failure, than to rank with
those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor
suffer much because they live in the gray
twilight that knows neither victory nor
defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:30:32 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 07:22:04 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...s_opinion_main

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.
Wall street brokerage house and bankers...

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of all management, and then blow
up their buildings.

No golden parachutes.

Oh...and in all publicly traded corporations, no executive earnings to
exceed 10 times the earnings of the average employee.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah...

By the way, when is the UAW going to fire it's Executives for getting
them in this mess to begin with?

UAW members elect their leadership.

I'll ask that again - when is the UAW going to fire their Executives?
--

Happy Holidays and Merry Whatever It Is
That ****es Liberals Off.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Dec 6, 7:43*am, Boater wrote:
D.Duck wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 07:14:20 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...28184421.html?
mod=rss_opinion_main
Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge
Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.
Personally, I can't see Chrysler surviving. *Ford, yes, and a much
smaller and different GM.

Exactly. * Chrysler hired an outside bankruptcy law firm yesterday. *They
are preparing for the inevitable.

GM needs to replace Wagoner. *He is so out of touch with reality that he
can't *be in charge of
reorganizing.

The Ford guy *(ex-Boeing) *seems to be a little more pro-active and may
be ok. *He's only been there for two years
and has already made some serious changes to Ford's overall business
structure.

Eisboch

Sorry, but if we can bail out the useless pushers of paper on wall street
and get absolutely nothing in return, we can help the millions of real
working Americans whose jobs depend on the domestic auto industry. I don't
buy into the concept that bankruptcy reorganization will work for
Chrysler, Ford *or GM.

You just want to see what some bankruptcy judge would do to union contracts.

We're in dire straits in this country. Everyone has to sacrifice, and if
that means nulling and voiding contracts, let's also cut the pension and
healthcare benefits of civilian and military retirees. Right?

"Cut" I don't know, but a lot of things can be put into a more fair
perspective.

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Dec 6, 8:06*am, wrote:
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:38:52 -0500, D.Duck wrote:
You just want to see what some bankruptcy judge would do to union
contracts.

Direct labor costs are only @10% of the cost of building a car. *If you
want to cut costs, labor isn't the place to start.

Well, but shaving off some of that 10% could help. i know this is a
2005 doc. but it still goes on.

i can't understand this type of reasoning:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1503982/posts

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Dec 6, 9:16*am, JohnH wrote:
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:56:28 -0600, Vic Smith



wrote:
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 09:39:04 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
inet...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:38:52 -0500, D.Duck wrote:

You just want to see what some bankruptcy judge would do to union
contracts.
Direct labor costs are only @10% of the cost of building a car. *If you
want to cut costs, labor isn't the place to start.

Someone outside and disconnected from management and the labor unions needs
to review and determine that.

What if your fixed labor costs are based on selling 18 million cars a year
but you only sold 10 million last year?

Eisboch

Then you have massive layoffs, of course.,

UAW has sub-pay, or whatever they're calling it now.
When I was UAW at IH the senior guys went first on a layoff.
95% pay for fishing. *I think they got unemployment comp then
the company made up the rest.
Never saw a layoff, but heard what happens when we got close once.
That's one of the things Corker was hammering the union guy about.
I don't think I ever heard a straight answer.
But that's one of the contract provisions that should have to go as a
condition of a taxpayer loan.
The only way to make it work is the UAW gives up a lot.

--Vic

jobs bank,,,http://tinyurl.com/cbksn
--
John H.

you beat me to it John, I didn't know you'd already posted it.

crazy, ain't it?

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

On Dec 6, 7:37*am, Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 07:14:20 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...28184421.html?
mod=rss_opinion_main
Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and merge
Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.
Personally, I can't see Chrysler surviving. *Ford, yes, and a much
smaller and different GM.

Exactly. * Chrysler hired an outside bankruptcy law firm yesterday. *They
are preparing for the inevitable.

GM needs to replace Wagoner. *He is so out of touch with reality that he
can't *be in charge of
reorganizing.

The Ford guy *(ex-Boeing) *seems to be a little more pro-active and may be
ok. *He's only been there for two years
and has already made some serious changes to Ford's overall business
structure.

Eisboch

Sorry, but if we can bail out the useless pushers of paper on wall
street and get absolutely nothing in return, we can help the millions of
real working Americans whose jobs depend on the domestic auto industry.
I don't buy into the concept that bankruptcy reorganization will work
for Chrysler, Ford *or GM.

http://www.mattbors.com/strips/250.gif

then

http://www.mattbors.com/strips/251.gif

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...s_opinion_main

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.

--

"Every normal man must be tempted at times
to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
and begin to slit throats."

H. L. Mencken

Well put. Those idiots and their boards need to be so fired.

I can't believe they even get the time of day in DC.


_
/'_/)
,/_ /
/ /
/'_'/' '/'__'7,
/'/ / / /" /_\
('( ' /' ') For the GM & UAW
\ /
'\' _.7'
\ (
\ \

Bridge loan to nowhere..
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 07:22:04 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...s_opinion_main

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.
Wall street brokerage house and bankers...

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of all management, and then blow
up their buildings.

No golden parachutes.

Oh...and in all publicly traded corporations, no executive earnings to
exceed 10 times the earnings of the average employee.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah...

By the way, when is the UAW going to fire it's Executives for getting
them in this mess to begin with?


UAW members elect their leadership.

They could take out personal loans and bail GM out themselves. And at $2.5
billion market cap, heck, buy them out.

No need for main street to put them on welfare. Besides, if GM goes down
outright, Ford and Chysler ar bound to do better and lay off less people as
they will benefit by getting more "Detroit" customers than if GM became
Government Motors.

I am a capitalist, while free money for companies sounds good, so does a
deal with the devil. But I avoid such deals as it means the company is
poision to everything it touches. GM needs chapter 11 to clean up what is
wrong with it. And starting with the board and CEO, they need a firing real
bad. It also sends a message to the UAW, yes, your idiot demands can screw
you out of work.

Americans should be insulted that they even suggest a handout. But that is
the problem with socialism, once one gets it they all want it. It does not
take long before every mismanaged company is lined up like thieves. And
when no one is working to pay the taxes it collapses.

I do agree with bailing out banks, but the terms are that shareholders, bond
holders and management walks away without a cent. They become government
owned and issured for above board regular depositors only. No bail outs of
share holders, preferred shares, bond holders or management. The government
does have to back the currency.

That way share holders will be more careful in picking a good board and good
executive managment next time.