"wf3h" wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 3:18 am, DevilsPGD wrote:


The problem today is that for whatever reason we're not willing to let
capitalism prune the massively inefficient wasteful companies and
instead feel the need to maintain them in their inefficient state.

well that depends. if EVERY company is doing the same thing...such as
credit swaps...and EVERY company is at risk how does the market handle
this?

and if a company is much too big to be allowed to fail, how does the
market handle that? as the saying goes, 'if you owe the bank $1000 you
have a problem; if you owe the bank $1M the bank has a problem'.
=======
Well said.

"DevilsPGD" wrote in message
...
In message beCUk.1513$o15.959@edtnps83 "Chom Noamsky"
was claimed to have wrote:

How much longer is socialism going to have to support the capitalists and
"free" markets?

Capitalism handles this situation nicely, when a company gets too
inefficient it gets replaced either by more efficient competition and it
modifies it's own behaviour or implodes under it's own weight.

That's fine and all but the process of adapting or imploding takes time. In
the meantime there are about 500,000 jobs that depend on the industry. When
a single industry employs that many people and becomes such a major economic
cornerstone, losing it is not an option. It needs to be fixed and made
competitive again without losing the jobs or the industry.

The bail-outs are the problem because they unfairly allow an inefficient
company to continue to operate.

How did it get to this point? These companies have a lot of lobby clout.
While the competition was gearing up for $100/bbl oil, the domestics were
lobbying Washington or Ottawa for relaxed fuel and emissions standards.
They did this so they could keep the marketability of SUVs and trucks up,
which on average are 4x more profitable than economy cars. They were
gambling on the price of fuel staying down to keep their vehicles
marketable, but it didn't and they got caught.

Socialism can be made to work, the problem is controlling greed.
Capitalism can be made to work, the problem is avoiding socialism.

Greed on Wall Street is what caused this recession. That's because a
certain amount of regulation is needed to stop the pigs from gobbling and
cheating. The right-wing agenda for the last 25 years has been
deregulation. This is the culmination of their efforts.

People get hurt in both systems, the trick is to find the middle ground
to avoid too many people getting hurt at once. In this respect certain
things in a capitalist society need to be regulated, banking, insurance,
infrastructure, education, courts, safety and defense (both national
defense and police), and probably a few others.

I've always believed in regulated capitalism. It's when the playing field
get slanted on way or another that the trouble starts. If the playing field
is kept level then the competition is genuine.

The type of regulation can vary, for things like health, a crown
corporation is likely to be effective. Private hospitals can't get away
with charging $7,000/day if a crown hospital charges $100/day and you
can bet that private insurance will pay a maximum of crown payouts. You
can solve the problem of needing qualified doctors (and other medical
staff) by having the gov't fund the student loans and then letting
doctors work off their loan in crown hospitals and faculties while
paying them a reasonable wage at the same time.

The local NDP candidate suggested the same thing about forgiving doctor's
student loans if they contract to stay in Canada for a minimum of three
years. I suppose that would be a solution, but doesn't that amount to
favouritism? Why not everyone else who has a student loan? Just because
someone chose to become a geologist or an engineer shouldn't determine how
nicely government treats them. What they could do is stop capping MSP
billings or increase the caps. That means doctors who want to work harder
could earn more. The local GPs I know can only make up to $100,000, the
caps won't let them bill more no matter how hard they work. It's
inefficient because it doesn't utilize doctors to the maximum potential.

The only case where you really need to nationalize is infrastructure,
police, courts, and defense. Capitalism isn't capable of managing
natural monopolies, so you generally need to nationalize those. You
need some degree of safety, and you really don't want a private police
or court system as they simply have too much power.

The problem today is that for whatever reason we're not willing to let
capitalism prune the massively inefficient wasteful companies and
instead feel the need to maintain them in their inefficient state.

Explain that to the people (aka voter) whose livelyhood goes down the tubes
with that pruning.

wrote in message
t...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:58:49 -0800, wf3h wrote:


and if a company is much too big to be allowed to fail, how does the
market handle that?

Simple, don't allow them to get to big to fail. Anti-trust, anyone?

Anti-trust is certainly part of it.

But GM is no longer too big to fail, they haven't been for a long time.
Toyota is now larger. There are also many more large competitors. There
are also at least five other companies in north American manufacturing
plants that are about to lay people off as the industry has far more
capacity than the market will support. GM going down will give them more
reasons to keep their people.

So say you are Ford or Chrysler CAW/UAW, you should be ripping the heads off
of the union for trying to keep GM afloat as if GM produces government
subsidised cars, then how are others to compete? Hint, they will layoff
more at Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and Honda.

So GM going down, no problem. If the governments don't ail them out I
predict the markets will like this. If they bail GM, look out. If they
bail GM, are they going to extend it to the other millions also laid off?
Doubtful. Unions are nothing more than noisy greedy slugs in expecting
government to bail them out.

"Boater" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:58:49 -0800, wf3h wrote:


and if a company is much too big to be allowed to fail, how does the
market handle that?

Simple, don't allow them to get to big to fail. Anti-trust, anyone?


But...that would require a DoJ not packed with corporate buddies...

Agreed. Microsoft is a good example.

If Toyota was in trouble, even though they employ many north Americans was
in trouble, does anyone think they would even get to talk to congress?

The reason Toyota is supportive is simple, government support is welcome.
If they don't get a cut they scream anti-trust and anti-competitive and go
to court. If they get it, more profit as unlike GM, Toyota has no problem
making money for it's shareholders.

"Chom Noamsky" wrote in message
news:Gn%Uk.1742$jr4.1092@edtnps82...

That's fine and all but the process of adapting or imploding takes time.
In the meantime there are about 500,000 jobs that depend on the industry.
When a single industry employs that many people and becomes such a major
economic cornerstone, losing it is not an option. It needs to be fixed
and made competitive again without losing the jobs or the industry.

How much of the industry is GM? Maybe 20%. Banks took a deeper cut.

GM's turn. Now one is bailing banks or the little layoffs going on all the
time. I even know companies that lay off 49 per month so they don't have to
report it! Who is helping them out?

GM, greedy turds need to go down on principle. I am sure Ford, Chrysler,
Nissan, Toyota and Honda can pick up the slack as the industry right sizes.

"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
...

"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:45:19 -0800, "sdgreen"
wrote:


"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
.. .

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
Here is a solution for GM that will work.

Each and every employee of GM is to buy stock in the company.
Proceeds
will be used to fund GM financial needs.

Employees must own shares to work at GM. The amount is determined by
their compensation. They must own at least 20% of their annual
compensation in common shares of GM. If you are new, you must buy 5%
of
your anticipate income immediately or you cannot be hired.

Managers need to own at least 25% minimum.

Executives must own the equivalent of last years total compensation or
more. This also applies to board members. Board members and executive
not owning at least 50% today are to be discharged unless they correct
the issue in 20 days or less.

Shares already owned count so you don't have to buy more if you
already
have them. You may own them any way you wish, but must control the
percentage of shares required.

If you don't have them then 15% of your wage/salary goes towards share
purchases until topped up to the minimum for your job and pay scale.
If
you are an executive or manager, that amount increases to 25%. Shares
will be accumulated at the months lowest daily average minus 5%. You
are
not allowed to sell shares below your percentage or those not vested
for
3 years.

Shares will be initially issued by GM, later if solvent they will be
purchased off the market but for now new issues to raise cash. The
cash
will be used to finance the company. No need to rip or beg from
taxpayers like beggars and thieves. Plus, you get to own the company
and
vote for your choice of the CEO!

Solves a lot of problems for everyone.

CAW/UAW, put your money where your mouth is!
=======================

How about all executive bonuses being only in the form of ten year
deferred stock? This would make them plan 10 years ahead instead of
just
as far as their quarterly or yearly bonus. If the company goes
bankrupt
before the ten years, then they lose.
Just as pure democracy can have its drawbacks, pure capitalism can
too.
-lm





========

The whole bonus system for Corporations indeed Crown Corporations needs
to
be abolished, period.


It's not just Crown Corporations, civil servants who do not work for
C.C. also get bonuses as well as fat severance pay.
=================================

My reference was to the private sector but I certainly agree with a no
bonus policy for civil or crown.
-lm

They get a huge bonus compared to private sector.

- 20% or more pay for the same work/skill.
- not as many years needed for full retirement
- no real comparative threat of layoff for failure
- awful hard to get fired and next to imposible to get laid off.
- 2 hours real work a day, you are an over achiever
- indexed pension, much more generious than anywhere else
- benefits like dental, much more generous than anywhere else
- loads of vacation
- insider stock tips (Goodale for example) when Canadian government tinkers
with the market.

On Nov 19, 8:17*pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message

...







"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:45:19 -0800, "sdgreen"
wrote:

"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
.. .

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
Here is a solution for GM that will work.

Each and every employee of GM is to buy stock in the company.
Proceeds
will be used to fund GM financial needs.

Employees must own shares to work at GM. *The amount is determined by
their compensation. *They must own at least 20% of their annual
compensation in common shares of GM. *If you are new, you must buy 5%
of
your anticipate income immediately or you cannot be hired.

Managers need to own at least 25% minimum.

Executives must own the equivalent of last years total compensation or
more. This also applies to board members. *Board members and executive
not owning at least 50% today are to be discharged unless they correct
the issue in 20 days or less.

Shares already owned count so you don't have to buy more if you
already
have them. *You may own them any way you wish, but must control the
percentage of shares required.

If you don't have them then 15% of your wage/salary goes towards share
purchases until topped up to the minimum for your job and pay scale..
If
you are an executive or manager, that amount increases to 25%. *Shares
will be accumulated at the months lowest daily average minus 5%. *You
are
not allowed to sell shares below your percentage or those not vested
for
3 years.

Shares will be initially issued by GM, later if solvent they will be
purchased off the market but for now new issues to raise cash. *The
cash
will be used to finance the company. *No need to rip or beg from
taxpayers like beggars and thieves. *Plus, you get to own the company
and
vote for your choice of the CEO!

Solves a lot of problems for everyone.

CAW/UAW, put your money where your mouth is!
=======================

How about all executive bonuses being only in the form of ten year
deferred stock? This would make them plan 10 years ahead instead of
just
as far as their quarterly or yearly bonus. *If the company goes
bankrupt
before the ten years, then they lose.
Just as pure democracy can have its drawbacks, pure capitalism can
too.
-lm

========

The whole bonus system for Corporations indeed Crown Corporations needs
to
be abolished, period.

It's not just Crown Corporations, civil servants who do not work for
C.C. also get bonuses as well as fat severance pay.
=================================

My reference was to the private sector but I certainly agree with a no
bonus policy for civil or crown.
-lm

They get a huge bonus compared to private sector.

- 20% or more pay for the same work/skill.
- not as many years needed for full retirement
- no real comparative threat of layoff for failure
- awful hard to get fired and next to imposible to get laid off.
- 2 hours real work a day, you are an over achiever
- indexed pension, much more generious than anywhere else
- benefits like dental, much more generous than anywhere else
- loads of vacation
- insider stock tips (Goodale for example) when Canadian government tinkers
with the market.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Two hours of work a day will get you in trouble with the Union.. They
need at least 5 folks paying dues for each manhour...

On Nov 17, 8:28*pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
Here is a solution for GM that will work.

Each and every employee of GM is to buy stock in the company. *Proceeds will
be used to fund GM financial needs.

Employees must own shares to work at GM. *The amount is determined by their
compensation. *They must own at least 20% of their annual compensation in
common shares of GM. *If you are new, you must buy 5% of your anticipate
income immediately or you cannot be hired.

Managers need to own at least 25% minimum.

Executives must own the equivalent of last years total compensation or more.
This also applies to board members. *Board members and executive not owning
at least 50% today are to be discharged unless they correct the issue in 20
days or less.

Shares already owned count so you don't have to buy more if you already have
them. *You may own them any way you wish, but must control the percentage of
shares required.

If you don't have them then 15% of your wage/salary goes towards share
purchases until topped up to the minimum for your job and pay scale. *If you
are an executive or manager, that amount increases to 25%. *Shares will be
accumulated at the months lowest daily average minus 5%. *You are not
allowed to sell shares below your percentage or those not vested for 3
years.

Shares will be initially issued by GM, later if solvent they will be
purchased off the market but for now new issues to raise cash. *The cash
will be used to finance the company. *No need to rip or beg from taxpayers
like beggars and thieves. *Plus, you get to own the company and vote for
your choice of the CEO!

Solves a lot of problems for everyone.

CAW/UAW, put your money where your mouth is!

So 57 what would you have them do for this bunch?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl..._gam_mostemail

I see no reason to bail them out.

" wrote in message
...
On Nov 17, 8:28 pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
Here is a solution for GM that will work.

Each and every employee of GM is to buy stock in the company. Proceeds
will
be used to fund GM financial needs.

Employees must own shares to work at GM. The amount is determined by their
compensation. They must own at least 20% of their annual compensation in
common shares of GM. If you are new, you must buy 5% of your anticipate
income immediately or you cannot be hired.

Managers need to own at least 25% minimum.

Executives must own the equivalent of last years total compensation or
more.
This also applies to board members. Board members and executive not owning
at least 50% today are to be discharged unless they correct the issue in
20
days or less.

Shares already owned count so you don't have to buy more if you already
have
them. You may own them any way you wish, but must control the percentage
of
shares required.

If you don't have them then 15% of your wage/salary goes towards share
purchases until topped up to the minimum for your job and pay scale. If
you
are an executive or manager, that amount increases to 25%. Shares will be
accumulated at the months lowest daily average minus 5%. You are not
allowed to sell shares below your percentage or those not vested for 3
years.

Shares will be initially issued by GM, later if solvent they will be
purchased off the market but for now new issues to raise cash. The cash
will be used to finance the company. No need to rip or beg from taxpayers
like beggars and thieves. Plus, you get to own the company and vote for
your choice of the CEO!

Solves a lot of problems for everyone.

CAW/UAW, put your money where your mouth is!

So 57 what would you have them do for this bunch?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl..._gam_mostemail

I see no reason to bail them out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just recently when the Canadian dollar was at par and even exceeded the US
dollar, the car dealers in Canada were still selling vehicles at the old
rate of approx 25% higher than US prices. They didn't drop their prices
until shamed into doing so...and the Toyota/Subaru people only dropped about
half the difference.
At this point, with the Canadian dollar sinking, the prices would be roughly
in line.
They were screwing us for about a year...so I say screw them. Enough with
the handouts.

" wrote in message
...
On Nov 17, 8:28 pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
Here is a solution for GM that will work.

Each and every employee of GM is to buy stock in the company. Proceeds
will
be used to fund GM financial needs.

Employees must own shares to work at GM. The amount is determined by their
compensation. They must own at least 20% of their annual compensation in
common shares of GM. If you are new, you must buy 5% of your anticipate
income immediately or you cannot be hired.

Managers need to own at least 25% minimum.

Executives must own the equivalent of last years total compensation or
more.
This also applies to board members. Board members and executive not owning
at least 50% today are to be discharged unless they correct the issue in
20
days or less.

Shares already owned count so you don't have to buy more if you already
have
them. You may own them any way you wish, but must control the percentage
of
shares required.

If you don't have them then 15% of your wage/salary goes towards share
purchases until topped up to the minimum for your job and pay scale. If
you
are an executive or manager, that amount increases to 25%. Shares will be
accumulated at the months lowest daily average minus 5%. You are not
allowed to sell shares below your percentage or those not vested for 3
years.

Shares will be initially issued by GM, later if solvent they will be
purchased off the market but for now new issues to raise cash. The cash
will be used to finance the company. No need to rip or beg from taxpayers
like beggars and thieves. Plus, you get to own the company and vote for
your choice of the CEO!

Solves a lot of problems for everyone.

CAW/UAW, put your money where your mouth is!

So 57 what would you have them do for this bunch?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl..._gam_mostemail

I see no reason to bail them out.
----

The same ones selling Canadian built cars up to 20% more than US dealers
were selling in the USA when the dollar was at par?

Same thing. Tell the ******s to prep their resumes and look for a job.

One good thing about all of this, is government can't support them all
before the government itself goes bankrupt.

Today the markets mid afternoon took a sharp turn up (good sign), right
after rumours leaded that congress has no time or money for GM...