On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:30:59 +0000 (UTC), John Forkosh
wrote:

I'm interested learning to sail, from the ground up, so to speak,
in the New York City vicinity. There appear to be three schools
in the area: Manhattan Sailing School (www.sailmanhattan.com),
Newport Sailing School (www.newportsail.com), and Offshore Sailing
School (www.offshore-sailing.com/locations/nyharbor.htm and also
www.offshore-sailing.com/locations/chelsea.htm).
So far, I've taken the basic keelboat course twice (once each
from two different schools), coastal cruising (just once, and
joined the sailing club of one school for two seasons so far,
now coming up on three. Lots of fun!
But my observation was that the "real sailors" at all these places
learned to sail elsewheres, then moved to New York and joined the clubs.
As far as I can tell, none of these schools seems to teach real sailors
from the ground up, which is what I'm looking for. The basic keelboat
course and club day sails were great, as far as they went. But the
coastal cruising course was a joke as far as learning anything new was
concerned -- just one long day sail. And now I'm not sure how, and
with whom, to proceed.
Any suggestions appreciated (I avoided publicly making any specific
negative remarks about any specific school, and please feel free to
email me if you want to do the same). Thanks for the help,

I know that Newport SS has weekend overnight trips on a J36, or at
least has for the last two seasons. Sometimes it leaves for longer
trips. They also organize winter charters in the Caribbean where one
could gain experience.

I haven't done any of these myself. I know a couple that took the
basic keelboat course there on the J24s, and seemed happy with it. I
afterwards had them out on our boat and they had certainly learned the
baics.

Colgate's, the next school downstream, has a Hunter in the mid 30s
that I see out quite a bit, but it might be just a daysail as you
said.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you

Thanks for all the replies and good advice, guys.
Hope it's okay that I bundled them together below (with a
little rearrangement and editing) to streamline reply.

But first, as pointed out by Wayne B.
It's not quite clear to me what you mean by "real sailors",
or exactly which skills you believe to be missing.
... try to find a crewing job on a racing boat (not as
difficult as you might think), charter boats for day sails with
friends, and seek out experienced people for your questions. Best of
all, buy a small boat of your own, learn to maintain it, and take it
out whenever you can.
and similarly by Armond P. (aka Kerry D.?)
Like another person who responded, I don't quite get what it is
that you are having trouble with. If you want to learn about cruising,
go cruising, either on your own or another person's boat.

Right. Mea culpa. But both you guys got it exactly right anyway.
In a nutshell, I'd like to learn enough to confidently charter
and skipper, say, a mid-30-foot boat (and maybe eventually buy one).
The book learning part is no problem. Enough time on the water seems
to be the main problem.
The tentative conclusion I'd drawn myself was Wayne's -- "buy a
small boat, learn to maintain it, and take it out whenever you can."
I can probably already single-hand a small boat in light weather and
in sight of land, but haven't had a chance to learn to dock one
(despite asking a few times). Setting anchor was supposed to be
covered during coastal cruising course sail, but never was.
Ditto for some other things (e.g., engine, radio, electrical).
I did help take down club boats at the end of last season, and also
volunteered to help paint and scrape, etc, but never heard back
about that offer.
So I've been trying to move in Wayne's suggested direction,
but haven't been able to acquire all the prerequisite skills for
that yet, either. Expenses are yet another issue -- just a slip
at Newport, if available, is $100 per foot for the season, and you
still need to winter the boat elsewheres. And with all the other
costs I've heard about, I'm guessing maybe roughly $10K/year for
a low-20-foot boat??? So I've also been looking for someone
at about my same level, with about my same objectives, to share
responsibilities and expenses. No luck yet -- the smart people
don't seem to want to own a boat, and I also spoke with several
who sold theirs after moving to New York City. Not exactly
encouraging.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne.B [additionally] wrote:
... A lot of serious sailors grew
up in sailing families, went through junior sailing programs as
children, and went on to do collegiate sailing, that sort of thing.
You're not going to be able to duplicate that experience as an adult...

Yes, about half the club racers seem to come from this kind of
background. The cruising types (like me) not so much. But it
would be nice if sailing were more like second nature to me.
Too late, too bad, I guess, like you say.

...so just do whatever you can that gives you as much time on the water
as possible, in different types of boats, and with people of different
skill levels. Read books and magazines, go to seminars when
available, try to find a crewing job on a racing boat (not as
difficult as you might think), charter boats for day sails with
friends, and seek out experienced people for your questions. Best of
all, buy a small boat of your own, learn to maintain it, and take it
out whenever you can.

Have had a few opportunities to crew with club racers -- day sail
cruises end at 5pm, and boats are then taken out for early evening
races which are occasionally short crew. Mostly just ballast,
and sometimes clearing head sail and sheets from lifelines, etc,
but still lots of fun and good experiences just being there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis Gibbons dkgibbons at optonline dot net wrote:
Steve Colgate's courses (Offshore Sailing School) used to be quite
good. I sent both my first and second wife to his schools, and they
both became adequate sailors just from the course

Yes, this is the one school and club I have no personal experience
with yet. They have a get-acquainted party at Liberty Landing
April 30th, to which I have "tickets." Their bareboat charter course
sounds like it could be very helpful (and very fun) if it really
teaches everything advertised (okay, I've become a bit jaded).
I'm thinking about joining their club (that'll be two this season)
and, if all goes well, taking that course towards the end of the
summer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gogarty Gogarty at Clongowes dot edu wrote:
dkgibbons at optonline dot net says...
| Steve Colgate's courses (Offshore Sailing School) used to be quite
| good. I sent both my first and second wife to his schools, and they
| both became adequate sailors just from the course

Late first wife learned to sail with her mother's milk. Second (present) wife
had never been in a sailboat when we bought one. She thought is was the
greatest thing since... So long as it was on dry land. Then we launched and
she discovered sailbaots travel on thier sides. She spent a miserable season
hiding out below and sleeping as much as possible. So next season I sent her
to Colgate's Offshore Sailing School, which was then located at City Island,
New York. She took her course in a Soling in late April when the weather was
simply horrible. She learned very well and has become a very good sailor,
though she did pick up some bad habits, like coiling and wrapping every loose
piece of rope she can find. The Demon Riope-Wrapper. The most importanhing
she learned was that I knew what I was doing since the instrructors told and
taught her the same things. She now enjoys sailing, a lot. When we moved to a
bigger boat we took Offshore's cruising boat course (both of us) and I
learned a few things too despite sailing foer more than fifty years.

I would certainly recommend Offshore, now based in New Jersey. I am sure the
others are just as good.

You've definitely given me more positive (despite already-jaded)
feelings regarding Offshore. They certainly seem to be the best-funded
school, followed by Manhattan Sailing, and then by Newport. Maybe
there's a correlation between that and how good they are?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave Dave at nothere dot com wrote:
I've always thought it best to do your first learning in a dinghy, and only
after you're comfortable with the dinghy to move to a larger boat. In the
NY area, I'd try the course run, I believe, by Parks and Rec at Flushing
Meadow Park. They teach on small aluminum dinghies called Ballerinas (or at
least did in the past). The wife did it, and it seemed to be fairly decent.
The cost is also minimal, and you can use the boats for next to nothing when
you sign up for membership.

That sounds like a _great_ idea! I haven't gotten as good an intuitive
feel for wind as I'd like on the larger boats (J/24's, J/30's and a J/36)
I've been on. I'd love to spend some afternoons on a Sun-class boat
and really learn to sail it, but wouldn't want to capsize in the middle
of New York harbor. I wasn't aware of the Flushing program, and will
definitely be checking it out. Thanks, Dave.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Armond Perretta newsgroupreader at REMOVEcomcast dot net wrote:
I took 2 Offshore courses with my wife decades ago and found them helpful,
especially since we were separated during the process based on the tacit
acknowledgement that having one spouse teach another is sometimes
difficult. The rest of what I "know" came from publications and
on-the-water experience. I don't really believe there's much else one can
do in this regard.

Like another person who responded to your post, I don't quite get what it is
that you are having trouble with. If you want to learn about cruising, go
cruising, either on your own or another person's boat. If you find, after
several cruises of at least 2 weeks or so, that you still don't feel like a
"real sailor" then that would be something else again.

BTW not many of us here, including the many degenerates who have decades on
the water, actually know what a "real sailor" is. However we can easily
identify _sailors_ when we bump into them.
--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Yes, I definitely agree -- and it's really kind of obvious -- that
"on-the-water experience" is the only way to learn (you can't
play piano or drive a car just by reading books). But the courses
and club day sails I've taken so far have a pretty structured
format mostly limited to tacking and jibing and handling running
rigging. No docking, driving under power, setting anchor, etc,
etc, etc. And, as Wayne mentioned, no boat maintenance experience.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodney Myrvaagnes rodneym at attglobal dot net wrote:
I know that Newport SS has weekend overnight trips on a J36, or at
least has for the last two seasons. Sometimes it leaves for longer
trips. They also organize winter charters in the Caribbean where one
could gain experience.

I haven't done any of these myself. I know a couple that took the
basic keelboat course there on the J24s, and seemed happy with it. I
afterwards had them out on our boat and they had certainly learned the
baics.

Colgate's, the next school downstream, has a Hunter in the mid 30s
that I see out quite a bit, but it might be just a daysail as you
said.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

I wasn't aware of Newport's weekend club sails on J/36
(spent weekend on it during coastal course) and, since
already paid up for the season anyway, will check it out --
do I know you from there??? And I've tried but so far failed
to arrange time for BVI cruise. Actually, I understand it's
much more of a party trip, but I've certainly got no problem
with that and I guess you can learn a lot about sailing in the
meantime (is there such a thing as "designated skipper"?.

I took Newport's basic course, and Rick is by far the
best classroom teacher. Had different instructors on
the J/24's, but they were terrific, too. And, abandoning
my original constraint not to say anything explicitly negative,
Manhattan's basic classroom session was _completely_ unprepared,
and their instructors were certainly okay but still a notch or
two below Newport's. (Note: there were three years between
courses, so I re-took it as a refresher, and tried Manhattan
the second time for comparison.)
Nevertheless, I'd say (in my extremely limited capacity)
that the basic course from either school teaches you absolutely
everything you'd expect from such a course, and even a bit more.
So far, for me anyway, getting significantly beyond that is
what's been my problem.
That is, the coastal course (like the club day sails)
consisted of little more than tacking and jibing and handling
the running rigging on a biggger boat (with a few extra pinches
of navigation and navigational aids, running lights, etc,
thrown in for good measure). But docking, setting anchor,
engine, radio, electrical, and most other stuff discussed
in the book, weren't covered in the course. Stuff you need
to begin to move from crew to skipper.
I'd hazard to guess part of the problem is that the
basic course had some 25 students every week, whereas my
coastal course had three and was given four times that season.
Most of the money (in the New York City area, anyway) seems
to come from the basic course. After that, club dues, etc,
seem to generate the most revenue, from members who usually
already know everything they want to. Coastal and other
courses seem to contribute no more than a drop in the bucket.
And I guess I'm not suggesting schools be obliged to put
lots of effort and resources into non-money-making courses
that I happen to want (though it wouldn't seem to take lots
of extra effort to do the course right once you're doing it
at all). But I am asking how/where I can learn what I want.

And, meanwhile, thanks again, everybody,
for your answers to that question (and sorry
about that "real sailor" thing -- hope I've
cleared up what I was trying to say),
--
John Forkosh ( )

Thanks for all the replies and good advice, guys.
Hope it's okay that I bundled them together below (with a
little rearrangement and editing) to streamline reply.

But first, as pointed out by Wayne B.
It's not quite clear to me what you mean by "real sailors",
or exactly which skills you believe to be missing.
... try to find a crewing job on a racing boat (not as
difficult as you might think), charter boats for day sails with
friends, and seek out experienced people for your questions. Best of
all, buy a small boat of your own, learn to maintain it, and take it
out whenever you can.
and similarly by Armond P. (aka Kerry D.?)
Like another person who responded, I don't quite get what it is
that you are having trouble with. If you want to learn about cruising,
go cruising, either on your own or another person's boat.

Right. Mea culpa. But both you guys got it exactly right anyway.
In a nutshell, I'd like to learn enough to confidently charter
and skipper, say, a mid-30-foot boat (and maybe eventually buy one).
The book learning part is no problem. Enough time on the water seems
to be the main problem.
The tentative conclusion I'd drawn myself was Wayne's -- "buy a
small boat, learn to maintain it, and take it out whenever you can."
I can probably already single-hand a small boat in light weather and
in sight of land, but haven't had a chance to learn to dock one
(despite asking a few times). Setting anchor was supposed to be
covered during coastal cruising course sail, but never was.
Ditto for some other things (e.g., engine, radio, electrical).
I did help take down club boats at the end of last season, and also
volunteered to help paint and scrape, etc, but never heard back
about that offer.
So I've been trying to move in Wayne's suggested direction,
but haven't been able to acquire all the prerequisite skills for
that yet, either. Expenses are yet another issue -- just a slip
at Newport, if available, is $100 per foot for the season, and you
still need to winter the boat elsewheres. And with all the other
costs I've heard about, I'm guessing maybe roughly $10K/year for
a low-20-foot boat??? So I've also been looking for someone
at about my same level, with about my same objectives, to share
responsibilities and expenses. No luck yet -- the smart people
don't seem to want to own a boat, and I also spoke with several
who sold theirs after moving to New York City. Not exactly
encouraging.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne.B [additionally] wrote:
... A lot of serious sailors grew
up in sailing families, went through junior sailing programs as
children, and went on to do collegiate sailing, that sort of thing.
You're not going to be able to duplicate that experience as an adult...

Yes, about half the club racers seem to come from this kind of
background. The cruising types (like me) not so much. But it
would be nice if sailing were more like second nature to me.
Too late, too bad, I guess, like you say.

...so just do whatever you can that gives you as much time on the water
as possible, in different types of boats, and with people of different
skill levels. Read books and magazines, go to seminars when
available, try to find a crewing job on a racing boat (not as
difficult as you might think), charter boats for day sails with
friends, and seek out experienced people for your questions. Best of
all, buy a small boat of your own, learn to maintain it, and take it
out whenever you can.

Have had a few opportunities to crew with club racers -- day sail
cruises end at 5pm, and boats are then taken out for early evening
races which are occasionally short crew. Mostly just ballast,
and sometimes clearing head sail and sheets from lifelines, etc,
but still lots of fun and good experiences just being there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis Gibbons dkgibbons at optonline dot net wrote:
Steve Colgate's courses (Offshore Sailing School) used to be quite
good. I sent both my first and second wife to his schools, and they
both became adequate sailors just from the course

Yes, this is the one school and club I have no personal experience
with yet. They have a get-acquainted party at Liberty Landing
April 30th, to which I have "tickets." Their bareboat charter course
sounds like it could be very helpful (and very fun) if it really
teaches everything advertised (okay, I've become a bit jaded).
I'm thinking about joining their club (that'll be two this season)
and, if all goes well, taking that course towards the end of the
summer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gogarty Gogarty at Clongowes dot edu wrote:
dkgibbons at optonline dot net says...
| Steve Colgate's courses (Offshore Sailing School) used to be quite
| good. I sent both my first and second wife to his schools, and they
| both became adequate sailors just from the course

Late first wife learned to sail with her mother's milk. Second (present) wife
had never been in a sailboat when we bought one. She thought is was the
greatest thing since... So long as it was on dry land. Then we launched and
she discovered sailbaots travel on thier sides. She spent a miserable season
hiding out below and sleeping as much as possible. So next season I sent her
to Colgate's Offshore Sailing School, which was then located at City Island,
New York. She took her course in a Soling in late April when the weather was
simply horrible. She learned very well and has become a very good sailor,
though she did pick up some bad habits, like coiling and wrapping every loose
piece of rope she can find. The Demon Riope-Wrapper. The most importanhing
she learned was that I knew what I was doing since the instrructors told and
taught her the same things. She now enjoys sailing, a lot. When we moved to a
bigger boat we took Offshore's cruising boat course (both of us) and I
learned a few things too despite sailing foer more than fifty years.

I would certainly recommend Offshore, now based in New Jersey. I am sure the
others are just as good.

You've definitely given me more positive (despite already-jaded)
feelings regarding Offshore. They certainly seem to be the best-funded
school, followed by Manhattan Sailing, and then by Newport. Maybe
there's a correlation between that and how good they are?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave Dave at nothere dot com wrote:
I've always thought it best to do your first learning in a dinghy, and only
after you're comfortable with the dinghy to move to a larger boat. In the
NY area, I'd try the course run, I believe, by Parks and Rec at Flushing
Meadow Park. They teach on small aluminum dinghies called Ballerinas (or at
least did in the past). The wife did it, and it seemed to be fairly decent.
The cost is also minimal, and you can use the boats for next to nothing when
you sign up for membership.

That sounds like a _great_ idea! I haven't gotten as good an intuitive
feel for wind as I'd like on the larger boats (J/24's, J/30's and a J/36)
I've been on. I'd love to spend some afternoons on a Sun-class boat
and really learn to sail it, but wouldn't want to capsize in the middle
of New York harbor. I wasn't aware of the Flushing program, and will
definitely be checking it out. Thanks, Dave.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Armond Perretta newsgroupreader at REMOVEcomcast dot net wrote:
I took 2 Offshore courses with my wife decades ago and found them helpful,
especially since we were separated during the process based on the tacit
acknowledgement that having one spouse teach another is sometimes
difficult. The rest of what I "know" came from publications and
on-the-water experience. I don't really believe there's much else one can
do in this regard.

Like another person who responded to your post, I don't quite get what it is
that you are having trouble with. If you want to learn about cruising, go
cruising, either on your own or another person's boat. If you find, after
several cruises of at least 2 weeks or so, that you still don't feel like a
"real sailor" then that would be something else again.

BTW not many of us here, including the many degenerates who have decades on
the water, actually know what a "real sailor" is. However we can easily
identify _sailors_ when we bump into them.
--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Yes, I definitely agree -- and it's really kind of obvious -- that
"on-the-water experience" is the only way to learn (you can't
play piano or drive a car just by reading books). But the courses
and club day sails I've taken so far have a pretty structured
format mostly limited to tacking and jibing and handling running
rigging. No docking, driving under power, setting anchor, etc,
etc, etc. And, as Wayne mentioned, no boat maintenance experience.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodney Myrvaagnes rodneym at attglobal dot net wrote:
I know that Newport SS has weekend overnight trips on a J36, or at
least has for the last two seasons. Sometimes it leaves for longer
trips. They also organize winter charters in the Caribbean where one
could gain experience.

I haven't done any of these myself. I know a couple that took the
basic keelboat course there on the J24s, and seemed happy with it. I
afterwards had them out on our boat and they had certainly learned the
baics.

Colgate's, the next school downstream, has a Hunter in the mid 30s
that I see out quite a bit, but it might be just a daysail as you
said.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

I wasn't aware of Newport's weekend club sails on J/36
(spent weekend on it during coastal course) and, since
already paid up for the season anyway, will check it out --
do I know you from there??? And I've tried but so far failed
to arrange time for BVI cruise. Actually, I understand it's
much more of a party trip, but I've certainly got no problem
with that and I guess you can learn a lot about sailing in the
meantime (is there such a thing as "designated skipper"?.

I took Newport's basic course, and Rick is by far the
best classroom teacher. Had different instructors on
the J/24's, but they were terrific, too. And, abandoning
my original constraint not to say anything explicitly negative,
Manhattan's basic classroom session was _completely_ unprepared,
and their instructors were certainly okay but still a notch or
two below Newport's. (Note: there were three years between
courses, so I re-took it as a refresher, and tried Manhattan
the second time for comparison.)
Nevertheless, I'd say (in my extremely limited capacity)
that the basic course from either school teaches you absolutely
everything you'd expect from such a course, and even a bit more.
So far, for me anyway, getting significantly beyond that is
what's been my problem.
That is, the coastal course (like the club day sails)
consisted of little more than tacking and jibing and handling
the running rigging on a biggger boat (with a few extra pinches
of navigation and navigational aids, running lights, etc,
thrown in for good measure). But docking, setting anchor,
engine, radio, electrical, and most other stuff discussed
in the book, weren't covered in the course. Stuff you need
to begin to move from crew to skipper.
I'd hazard to guess part of the problem is that the
basic course had some 25 students every week, whereas my
coastal course had three and was given four times that season.
Most of the money (in the New York City area, anyway) seems
to come from the basic course. After that, club dues, etc,
seem to generate the most revenue, from members who usually
already know everything they want to. Coastal and other
courses seem to contribute no more than a drop in the bucket.
And I guess I'm not suggesting schools be obliged to put
lots of effort and resources into non-money-making courses
that I happen to want (though it wouldn't seem to take lots
of extra effort to do the course right once you're doing it
at all). But I am asking how/where I can learn what I want.

And, meanwhile, thanks again, everybody,
for your answers to that question (and sorry
about that "real sailor" thing -- hope I've
cleared up what I was trying to say),
--
John Forkosh ( )

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:53:37 +0000 (UTC), John Forkosh
wrote:


Rodney Myrvaagnes rodneym at attglobal dot net wrote:
I know that Newport SS has weekend overnight trips on a J36, or at
least has for the last two seasons. Sometimes it leaves for longer
trips. They also organize winter charters in the Caribbean where one
could gain experience.

I haven't done any of these myself. I know a couple that took the
basic keelboat course there on the J24s, and seemed happy with it. I
afterwards had them out on our boat and they had certainly learned the
baics.

Colgate's, the next school downstream, has a Hunter in the mid 30s
that I see out quite a bit, but it might be just a daysail as you
said.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

I wasn't aware of Newport's weekend club sails on J/36
(spent weekend on it during coastal course) and, since
already paid up for the season anyway, will check it out --
do I know you from there???

I have the other J36, the dark blue one farther down the dock from
Rick's.

I have seen them doing docking practice on the school J36, out on the
T end. Their J36 has a non-folding prop, which I am sure makes it
easier for a beginner to use in reverse.

And I've tried but so far failed
to arrange time for BVI cruise. Actually, I understand it's
much more of a party trip, but I've certainly got no problem
with that and I guess you can learn a lot about sailing in the
meantime (is there such a thing as "designated skipper"?.

I took Newport's basic course, and Rick is by far the
best classroom teacher. Had different instructors on
the J/24's, but they were terrific, too. And, abandoning
my original constraint not to say anything explicitly negative,
Manhattan's basic classroom session was _completely_ unprepared,
and their instructors were certainly okay but still a notch or
two below Newport's. (Note: there were three years between
courses, so I re-took it as a refresher, and tried Manhattan
the second time for comparison.)
Nevertheless, I'd say (in my extremely limited capacity)
that the basic course from either school teaches you absolutely
everything you'd expect from such a course, and even a bit more.
So far, for me anyway, getting significantly beyond that is
what's been my problem.
That is, the coastal course (like the club day sails)
consisted of little more than tacking and jibing and handling
the running rigging on a biggger boat (with a few extra pinches
of navigation and navigational aids, running lights, etc,
thrown in for good measure).

Navigation, aids, running lights, and such you will get from classroom
courses offered by the USCG Auxiliary and the US Power Squadron.

You should take the basic safety and seamanship from one of these in
any case. A follow-on course in coastal piloting is also useful.

Since the instructors are volunteers the quality is quite variable,
but you will learn something, and get an idea what else you need ot
study.

You might also join a sailing club, like New York Sailing Club, whose
first purpose is to put boat owners together with those who would like
to sail but don't have a boat. Check

www.newyorksailingclub.com/

It meets monthly September to May at Raymond's Cafe, 88 7th Ave, NYC.
There are on-water events in the sailing season.

But docking, setting anchor,
engine, radio, electrical, and most other stuff discussed
in the book, weren't covered in the course. Stuff you need
to begin to move from crew to skipper.

Books (remember those?) are your friend. Also The Practical Sailor is
a newsletter for boat owners that is especially useful for owners of
older boats. The newsletter itself is supported entirely by
subscriptions, so it seems pricy at first. I think it is worth it.

The publishers also put out a series of books on buying boats,
maintaining, etc that may still be in print.
I'd hazard to guess part of the problem is that the
basic course had some 25 students every week, whereas my
coastal course had three and was given four times that season.
Most of the money (in the New York City area, anyway) seems
to come from the basic course. After that, club dues, etc,
seem to generate the most revenue, from members who usually
already know everything they want to. Coastal and other
courses seem to contribute no more than a drop in the bucket.
And I guess I'm not suggesting schools be obliged to put
lots of effort and resources into non-money-making courses
that I happen to want (though it wouldn't seem to take lots
of extra effort to do the course right once you're doing it
at all). But I am asking how/where I can learn what I want.

And, meanwhile, thanks again, everybody,
for your answers to that question (and sorry
about that "real sailor" thing -- hope I've
cleared up what I was trying to say),
--


Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:53:37 +0000 (UTC), John Forkosh
wrote:


Rodney Myrvaagnes rodneym at attglobal dot net wrote:
I know that Newport SS has weekend overnight trips on a J36, or at
least has for the last two seasons. Sometimes it leaves for longer
trips. They also organize winter charters in the Caribbean where one
could gain experience.

I haven't done any of these myself. I know a couple that took the
basic keelboat course there on the J24s, and seemed happy with it. I
afterwards had them out on our boat and they had certainly learned the
baics.

Colgate's, the next school downstream, has a Hunter in the mid 30s
that I see out quite a bit, but it might be just a daysail as you
said.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

I wasn't aware of Newport's weekend club sails on J/36
(spent weekend on it during coastal course) and, since
already paid up for the season anyway, will check it out --
do I know you from there???

I have the other J36, the dark blue one farther down the dock from
Rick's.

I have seen them doing docking practice on the school J36, out on the
T end. Their J36 has a non-folding prop, which I am sure makes it
easier for a beginner to use in reverse.

And I've tried but so far failed
to arrange time for BVI cruise. Actually, I understand it's
much more of a party trip, but I've certainly got no problem
with that and I guess you can learn a lot about sailing in the
meantime (is there such a thing as "designated skipper"?.

I took Newport's basic course, and Rick is by far the
best classroom teacher. Had different instructors on
the J/24's, but they were terrific, too. And, abandoning
my original constraint not to say anything explicitly negative,
Manhattan's basic classroom session was _completely_ unprepared,
and their instructors were certainly okay but still a notch or
two below Newport's. (Note: there were three years between
courses, so I re-took it as a refresher, and tried Manhattan
the second time for comparison.)
Nevertheless, I'd say (in my extremely limited capacity)
that the basic course from either school teaches you absolutely
everything you'd expect from such a course, and even a bit more.
So far, for me anyway, getting significantly beyond that is
what's been my problem.
That is, the coastal course (like the club day sails)
consisted of little more than tacking and jibing and handling
the running rigging on a biggger boat (with a few extra pinches
of navigation and navigational aids, running lights, etc,
thrown in for good measure).

Navigation, aids, running lights, and such you will get from classroom
courses offered by the USCG Auxiliary and the US Power Squadron.

You should take the basic safety and seamanship from one of these in
any case. A follow-on course in coastal piloting is also useful.

Since the instructors are volunteers the quality is quite variable,
but you will learn something, and get an idea what else you need ot
study.

You might also join a sailing club, like New York Sailing Club, whose
first purpose is to put boat owners together with those who would like
to sail but don't have a boat. Check

www.newyorksailingclub.com/

It meets monthly September to May at Raymond's Cafe, 88 7th Ave, NYC.
There are on-water events in the sailing season.

But docking, setting anchor,
engine, radio, electrical, and most other stuff discussed
in the book, weren't covered in the course. Stuff you need
to begin to move from crew to skipper.

Books (remember those?) are your friend. Also The Practical Sailor is
a newsletter for boat owners that is especially useful for owners of
older boats. The newsletter itself is supported entirely by
subscriptions, so it seems pricy at first. I think it is worth it.

The publishers also put out a series of books on buying boats,
maintaining, etc that may still be in print.
I'd hazard to guess part of the problem is that the
basic course had some 25 students every week, whereas my
coastal course had three and was given four times that season.
Most of the money (in the New York City area, anyway) seems
to come from the basic course. After that, club dues, etc,
seem to generate the most revenue, from members who usually
already know everything they want to. Coastal and other
courses seem to contribute no more than a drop in the bucket.
And I guess I'm not suggesting schools be obliged to put
lots of effort and resources into non-money-making courses
that I happen to want (though it wouldn't seem to take lots
of extra effort to do the course right once you're doing it
at all). But I am asking how/where I can learn what I want.

And, meanwhile, thanks again, everybody,
for your answers to that question (and sorry
about that "real sailor" thing -- hope I've
cleared up what I was trying to say),
--


Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia