rhys wrote:
Starting a new thread because "Best bluewater 34 footer" is getting
insanely off-topic:

Frank Maier said:
Another of my prejudices is that I don't wanna have a pilothouse out
on the deep blue; so, I'd be looking for a non-pilothouse version.

Why is that? Me, I've always thought the advantages of a pilothouse,
or at least a hard dodger/bimini, were substantial if it was
well-integrated into the rest of the deck and the controls were
logical. I like the idea of hard points for rails, handgrips, places
to lash the boom, etc. That doesn't necessarily mean a pilot house,
but it does mean more than the typical enclosed bimini/dodger on light
steel tubing.

Hi,

Steve, my fellow Northwesterner, pretty much hit the high points.

If I were just cruising the Northwest, I'd love to have a pilothouse
because it provides a wonderful shelter and I'd have a reasonable
expectation of never getting hit by a big "freak" wave or getting
knocked down hard. Probably the same situation for New England coastal
cruising, although I couldn't say from personal experience.

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

YMMV,

Frank

On 29 Mar 2004 10:55:19 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

OK, I can see that being unpleasant

It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

Maybe the more elaborate sort of canvas and lexan/something less
scratch-prone combo is the answer...so that you are essentially
enclosed, but can roll up or unzip to accommodate warmer weather
and/or heavier wind you don't want pushing the boat around. My friend
with a center-cockpit ketch has this setup, with relatively light
canvas and heavier frame with grab bars. He sails through Lake Ontario
ice pans in January wearing just a fleece jacket, drinking hot coffee,
so cutting the wind is 90% of the issue.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

Fair enough. Thanks to all for your responses. Maybe a hard DODGER
(like those nice Euro boats...Hanse?...) is a good compromise, with a
frame bimini plus all-around enclosure.

Me, I have an old "lid" type hinged companionway cover, so I just make
due with a bimini. That suffices quite well in keeping the sun off
....the rain...not so well. What I need is a abbreviated "companionway"
dodger, which would be nice and a lot cheaper than retrofitting a
sliding hatch and a turtle, because the traveller is immediately
forward of the hinged lid.

No wonder I have pilot house envy...G

R.

I have a NW29 that i put a hard dodger on. It is the roof from a royal sea
power boat and is laminate core construction. It is supported by lexan
winscreen in front and 1" stainless tubing on the side. I can stand on it
to reef, it suports my solar panels.
I have zippered sunbrella and thick guage plastic for the side and rear.
It is ideal for extending the length of the boat 10Ft since i now use that
space like it is a permanent enclosure. My laptop is out there, the
cushions stay dry, the wind howls outside and on hot days the sun is
thwarted but the breeze flows thru.
I have had the luxury of comparison to pre and post comparison and i see
no overt changes in windage,,,,as the boat heals the doger shows less
surface to the wind. It has effectd my ability to point high by a about 5
degrees but the comfort factor far exceeds that detriment for me.
In all it wa the bets thing i did to that boat and anybody "and there were
plenty} that had negative comments as to how it would affect the boat have
been proven wrong. I notice and extra three or four H.Dodger boats evey yr
now in my cruising area. As to the tropics...i have had to endure heavy
rain in the closed interior of the boat a;ternating with a good soaking in
raingear/....AND I AN'T NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN! Hard dodger all the
way...zipped sides m,ake it pleasnat for tropics.
rick


On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:49:14 -0500, rhys wrote:

On 29 Mar 2004 10:55:19 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

OK, I can see that being unpleasant

It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

Maybe the more elaborate sort of canvas and lexan/something less
scratch-prone combo is the answer...so that you are essentially
enclosed, but can roll up or unzip to accommodate warmer weather
and/or heavier wind you don't want pushing the boat around. My friend
with a center-cockpit ketch has this setup, with relatively light
canvas and heavier frame with grab bars. He sails through Lake Ontario
ice pans in January wearing just a fleece jacket, drinking hot coffee,
so cutting the wind is 90% of the issue.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

Fair enough. Thanks to all for your responses. Maybe a hard DODGER
(like those nice Euro boats...Hanse?...) is a good compromise, with a
frame bimini plus all-around enclosure.

Me, I have an old "lid" type hinged companionway cover, so I just make
due with a bimini. That suffices quite well in keeping the sun off
...the rain...not so well. What I need is a abbreviated "companionway"
dodger, which would be nice and a lot cheaper than retrofitting a
sliding hatch and a turtle, because the traveller is immediately
forward of the hinged lid.

No wonder I have pilot house envy...G

R.




--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

x-no-archive:yes

rhys wrote:

On 29 Mar 2004 10:55:19 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

OK, I can see that being unpleasant

The pilot house that I'm most familiar with is an aft cockpit boat.
It has dual steering stations - either outside in the cockpit, or
inside the wheelhouse. I'm not sure, but I think the pilot house
windows open. They do create another potential place for leaks, but
that would be true whether they opened or not.

These are pilothouses that were designed as pilot houses and not
aftermarket retrofits. They are also ketches or cutter ketches - they
have a staysail for a total of 4 sails.


It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

Maybe the more elaborate sort of canvas and lexan/something less
scratch-prone combo is the answer...so that you are essentially
enclosed, but can roll up or unzip to accommodate warmer weather
and/or heavier wind you don't want pushing the boat around. My friend
with a center-cockpit ketch has this setup, with relatively light
canvas and heavier frame with grab bars. He sails through Lake Ontario
ice pans in January wearing just a fleece jacket, drinking hot coffee,
so cutting the wind is 90% of the issue.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

Fair enough. Thanks to all for your responses. Maybe a hard DODGER
(like those nice Euro boats...Hanse?...) is a good compromise, with a
frame bimini plus all-around enclosure.

Me, I have an old "lid" type hinged companionway cover, so I just make
due with a bimini. That suffices quite well in keeping the sun off
...the rain...not so well. What I need is a abbreviated "companionway"
dodger, which would be nice and a lot cheaper than retrofitting a
sliding hatch and a turtle, because the traveller is immediately
forward of the hinged lid.

No wonder I have pilot house envy...G

R.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

x-no-archive:yes

rhys wrote:

On 29 Mar 2004 10:55:19 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

OK, I can see that being unpleasant

The pilot house that I'm most familiar with is an aft cockpit boat.
It has dual steering stations - either outside in the cockpit, or
inside the wheelhouse. I'm not sure, but I think the pilot house
windows open. They do create another potential place for leaks, but
that would be true whether they opened or not.

These are pilothouses that were designed as pilot houses and not
aftermarket retrofits. They are also ketches or cutter ketches - they
have a staysail for a total of 4 sails.


It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

Maybe the more elaborate sort of canvas and lexan/something less
scratch-prone combo is the answer...so that you are essentially
enclosed, but can roll up or unzip to accommodate warmer weather
and/or heavier wind you don't want pushing the boat around. My friend
with a center-cockpit ketch has this setup, with relatively light
canvas and heavier frame with grab bars. He sails through Lake Ontario
ice pans in January wearing just a fleece jacket, drinking hot coffee,
so cutting the wind is 90% of the issue.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

Fair enough. Thanks to all for your responses. Maybe a hard DODGER
(like those nice Euro boats...Hanse?...) is a good compromise, with a
frame bimini plus all-around enclosure.

Me, I have an old "lid" type hinged companionway cover, so I just make
due with a bimini. That suffices quite well in keeping the sun off
...the rain...not so well. What I need is a abbreviated "companionway"
dodger, which would be nice and a lot cheaper than retrofitting a
sliding hatch and a turtle, because the traveller is immediately
forward of the hinged lid.

No wonder I have pilot house envy...G

R.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html