Net, net, you wanna steer with a rudder backing up, prop forward of the
rudder,
you MUST be moving.

Not sure what the point of steering if you are not moving would be? Forward
or reverse. If you are not moving, steering has no meaning.

Doug
s/v Callista

actually, there is a difference. If you put the tranny in forward and push the
throttle forward you can turn the boat one way or the other. Because of this,
some people believe you can do the same in reverse. You can't.

In addition, I have met people who had trouble backing up their boats who in
some cases were told that if they were to spend $XX,XXX's by moving the prop
closer to the rudder they would get better turning ability on the boat. They
would not.

Indeed, in a recent thread "Thrust Vectoring" many people insisted that pulling
water over a rudder would turn a boat. When I said it would not, several
people wanted to argue about it (including one dumb cluck who claims to have a
degree in physics, really dumb because this problem in physics is a classic
taught to early semester students). A couple people asked for an explanation
as why pulling water over a rudder had no effect and all, and I said I would
write one up today.

If one wants to steer by rudder backing up, one needs to start the boat moving
backwards slowly, otherwise prop walk will twist the boat sideways. Start
slowly until the boat is moving and the rudder becomes effective, depending on
how much the boat is moving through the water.

Net, net, you wanna steer with a rudder backing up, prop forward of the
rudder,
you MUST be moving.

Not sure what the point of steering if you are not moving would be? Forward
or reverse. If you are not moving, steering has no meaning.

Doug
s/v Callista

This all fits with my expierence. In reverse, propwalk is dominant
until some way is acheived. Then rudder control is possible.

Doug
s/v Callista

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
actually, there is a difference. If you put the tranny in forward and
push the
throttle forward you can turn the boat one way or the other. Because of
this,
some people believe you can do the same in reverse. You can't.

In addition, I have met people who had trouble backing up their boats who
in
some cases were told that if they were to spend $XX,XXX's by moving the
prop
closer to the rudder they would get better turning ability on the boat.
They
would not.

Indeed, in a recent thread "Thrust Vectoring" many people insisted that
pulling
water over a rudder would turn a boat. When I said it would not, several
people wanted to argue about it (including one dumb cluck who claims to
have a
degree in physics, really dumb because this problem in physics is a
classic
taught to early semester students). A couple people asked for an
explanation
as why pulling water over a rudder had no effect and all, and I said I
would
write one up today.

If one wants to steer by rudder backing up, one needs to start the boat
moving
backwards slowly, otherwise prop walk will twist the boat sideways. Start
slowly until the boat is moving and the rudder becomes effective,
depending on
how much the boat is moving through the water.

Net, net, you wanna steer with a rudder backing up, prop forward of the
rudder,
you MUST be moving.

Not sure what the point of steering if you are not moving would be?
Forward
or reverse. If you are not moving, steering has no meaning.

Doug
s/v Callista

Subject: push vs pull vis a vis rudders
From: "Doug Dotson"

Actually, I'm not sure how the subject of steering astern got into the
discussion as it was not a consideration of the original post about "thrust
vectoring".
However, on a twin screw boat (and this was what I believe he was discussing)
you don't need to have headway or sternway to alter your heading. This can be
done with props alone, or more easily and quickly, with props and rudders.
In various maneuvering situations, this can be a great advantage, and just to
throw in a kicker, the advantage can work with single screw as well.

Shen

Net, net, you wanna steer with a rudder backing up, prop forward of the
rudder,
you MUST be moving.

Not sure what the point of steering if you are not moving would be? Forward
or reverse. If you are not moving, steering has no meaning.

Doug
s/v Callista

I responded to an original post entitled "push vs pull vis a vis rudders".
Not familiar with the thread about Thrust Vectoring.

doug
S/v Callista

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: push vs pull vis a vis rudders
From: "Doug Dotson"

Actually, I'm not sure how the subject of steering astern got into the
discussion as it was not a consideration of the original post about
"thrust
vectoring".
However, on a twin screw boat (and this was what I believe he was
discussing)
you don't need to have headway or sternway to alter your heading. This can
be
done with props alone, or more easily and quickly, with props and rudders.
In various maneuvering situations, this can be a great advantage, and just
to
throw in a kicker, the advantage can work with single screw as well.

Shen

Net, net, you wanna steer with a rudder backing up, prop forward of the
rudder,
you MUST be moving.

Not sure what the point of steering if you are not moving would be?
Forward
or reverse. If you are not moving, steering has no meaning.

Doug
s/v Callista

schlackoff, the rudders don't control anything in reverse, unless the boat is
also moving backwards. They can't.



However, on a twin screw boat (and this was what I believe he was discussing)
you don't need to have headway or sternway to alter your heading. This can be
done with props alone, or more easily and quickly, with props and rudders.
In various maneuvering situations, this can be a great advantage, and just to
throw in a kicker, the advantage can work with single screw as well.

Shen

Net, net, you wanna steer with a rudder backing up, prop forward of the
rudder,
you MUST be moving.

Not sure what the point of steering if you are not moving would be? Forward
or reverse. If you are not moving, steering has no meaning.

Doug
s/v Callista

Subject: push vs pull vis a vis rudders
From: (JAXAshby)

NO CRAP, Dipsquat. Would you try and learn to read a post for actual content
and not just what you want the content to be !
Once again, the original post on thrust vectoring was talking about rudder use
when "kicking the engine AHEAD" ... NOT when kicking the engine astern and all
this has developed from there ..... try to follow along, as basically, all your
longwinded dissertations about astern have had nothing to do with the subject
at hand ..... typically.

Shen


schlackoff, the rudders don't control anything in reverse, unless the boat is
also moving backwards. They can't.

As much as it pains me to defend JAX, I think the fact
that he started a new thread to discuss this topic is
legitimate. If you are not interested in this topic which
primarily deals with moving astern, then don't participate.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: push vs pull vis a vis rudders
From: (JAXAshby)

NO CRAP, Dipsquat. Would you try and learn to read a post for actual
content
and not just what you want the content to be !
Once again, the original post on thrust vectoring was talking about rudder
use
when "kicking the engine AHEAD" ... NOT when kicking the engine astern and
all
this has developed from there ..... try to follow along, as basically, all
your
longwinded dissertations about astern have had nothing to do with the
subject
at hand ..... typically.

Shen


schlackoff, the rudders don't control anything in reverse, unless the
boat is
also moving backwards. They can't.

Subject: push vs pull vis a vis rudders
From: "Doug Dotson"

This thread started because Jax couldn't or wouldn't understand what the
original poster of "thrust vectoring" was saying about rudder usage "when
kicking an engine ahead".
Since I've been basing my comments on the original post and bouncing between
both threads, my comments are in relation to that original post which Jax can't
seem to understand, so I find myself having to correct his misconceptions
regarding these post.
Simply stated, if you don't like what I have to say to Jax, feel free to skip
any post from me, on the subject.
The subject of steering astern, is of great interest to me, as I frequently get
involved with doing it, coupled with making use of propwalk.

Shen

As much as it pains me to defend JAX, I think the fact
that he started a new thread to discuss this topic is
legitimate. If you are not interested in this topic which
primarily deals with moving astern, then don't participate.

Doug
s/v Callista

quote:

feel free to skip
any post from me

unquote



Shen