Frank Maier wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:

Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran

...snip...

Is this too good to be true?


Stephen,

You seem like a smart guy and you're a fellow Northwesterner, so I
hate to rain on your parade. We get enough of that here as it is.
But...

Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right? The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)

I don't remember if you gave any history in your original post. Have
you considered simply chartering? When you take that initial $multi-K
investment, then add on everything you hafta add on to own a boat year
'round, like marina fees,

I have property on the Puget Sound, on a little bay, I'm planning to put
in a buoy, or actually, have one put in professionally. It's in the budget.

insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?
Meanwhile I can have fun sailing and cruising around the massive
shoreline that is Puget Sound with my family. Even if it needs a few
thousand for a new motor and a few thousand for new sails, I can put my
elbow grease into it, etc, and have it worth more in five years or so,
if I want to move up in boats, or if I want to get out of boats altogether.

Well,
it just might be more economically realistic to charter or join a
sailing club and do a time-share kinda deal. There are lots of those
around Puget Sound.

I have the money sitting there, waiting to become a boat.


What type of boat is this repo/lien/auction thingy?

A Hunter, over 30,' don't know the year yet.

Stephen

Frank Maier wrote:
Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."
Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

And generally, this kind of lesson is something that you already knew
but were hoping for an exception this one time....


Stephen Trapani wrote:
Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right?

Yes, it *could* but the odds are much greater that the boat is of
negative value and is being auctioned to save the lien holder the price
of stripping it & cutting it up for the landfill.


... The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)

I can only say that I have not heard of them, as a regular practice. I
know of several boatyards that park old unwanted boats in a tight pile
at a far corner, and that these boats are generally not worth taking for
free. Almost all sailing clubs have rules that boats must have current
registration, but such rules are rarely enforced and most sailing clubs
have a bone yard of badly neglected never-sailors.

Sometimes marinas get sheriff's papers on boats they really want to
dump, but this is somewhat of a last resort AFAIK and these boats will
always have a cloudy title *as well as* being fit for the scrap yard. I
have known several people over the years to pick up boats like this, but
it always cost them many times more than they figured and lots more time
to actually get them in sailing order. Always.

What you might do is take Dan Best's advice and scavenge around all the
marinas and sailing clubs and try to pick up a boat that is still worth
having from the fringes of these ghost fleets.

It's painful to want a boat, to want to go sailing, so badly and see so
many boats just sitting unused.


Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA (cough cough)... dang I needed that.

Stephen, if you spend a lot of time & money keeping your boat in really
good shape, you will get back some of your money in the form of selling
it in the higher range of going prices. That could be anything! You will
get back some tiny fraction of upgrades & equipment, but you will never
get back a penny of regular maintenance. And not even the lowliest
cleaning materials aren't free.


I have the money sitting there, waiting to become a boat.


My advice... invest in a no-load index fund, join a local sailing club,
buy a tent and a sailing dinghy (preferably a racing class). You'll gain
a lot of experience, get a chance to share it with your family, AND
you'll still have the money. Best of all worlds! Then you will have a
chance to get a bigger better boat than you can afford now, and your
family will fit into the dream instead of standing outside wondering why
you've suddenly gone crazy.

I hope this doesn't sound negative, I'm really trying to help!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"If I get the right boat at the right price, like a neglected, quality boat
with some age, that has value, I'll get my money back from maintenance and
repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?"

No.

While it's true that, if you are not careful, you could buy a financial
disaster, There are plenty of bargains to be had. I have a retired friend
with both excellent knowledge of boats and the ability and equipment to fix
whatever needs to be fixed. He regularly buys boats; cleans up, fixes up,
often sails them for awhile and then resells them. Usually buys in the
winter and sells in the summer. Many of these he buys on Ebay sight unseen.
But he knows the right questions to ask and if he wins a bid and then finds
the boat to be other than represented, he refuses the buy and posts a bad
"feedback" on the seller. He has made some really great buys this way.
OTOH, if you have to pay a shop to do the work, then it is unlikely it will
be a good financial deal. Caveat Emptor!

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Frank Maier wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:

Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran

...snip...

Is this too good to be true?


Stephen,

You seem like a smart guy and you're a fellow Northwesterner, so I
hate to rain on your parade. We get enough of that here as it is.
But...

Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right? The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)

I don't remember if you gave any history in your original post. Have
you considered simply chartering? When you take that initial $multi-K
investment, then add on everything you hafta add on to own a boat year
'round, like marina fees,

I have property on the Puget Sound, on a little bay, I'm planning to put
in a buoy, or actually, have one put in professionally. It's in the
budget.

insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?
Meanwhile I can have fun sailing and cruising around the massive
shoreline that is Puget Sound with my family. Even if it needs a few
thousand for a new motor and a few thousand for new sails, I can put my
elbow grease into it, etc, and have it worth more in five years or so,
if I want to move up in boats, or if I want to get out of boats
altogether.

Well,
it just might be more economically realistic to charter or join a
sailing club and do a time-share kinda deal. There are lots of those
around Puget Sound.

I have the money sitting there, waiting to become a boat.


What type of boat is this repo/lien/auction thingy?

A Hunter, over 30,' don't know the year yet.

Stephen

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:44:07 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
What type of boat is this repo/lien/auction thingy?

A Hunter, over 30,' don't know the year yet.

=================================

The Catalina is probably the better boat all other things being equal.

Unfortunately your economic assumptions don't hold up to the scrutiny
of real world experience.

Most boats that have arrived at "auction" status, did so because the
present owner could not afford to keep them up for one reason or
another. Therefore you are almost guaranteed to be buying a LOT of
deferred maintenance issues, many of which will cost as much or more
than your proposed purchase price. A new 30 footer costs 100K plus,
ready to sail. That gives you some idea what repair and replacement
of major items is going to cost you, all of which will be done at
today's prices, not used auction prices.

My advice is to buy a smaller trailer sailer that will leave you with
plenty of cash for maintenance and upgrades, and allow you to do your
own haul-outs. If you have $8k cash in your budget, my advice would
be to spend no more than 40% on your purchase. There are Rangers and
Catalinas in the 22 and 23 foot range that can be bought for that
price and are very popular.

Get a good pre-purchase survey no matter what, and don't fall in love
with any one deal or any one boat. There are lots of older boats out
there looking for homes.

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Frank Maier wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran
...snip...
Is this too good to be true?

Stephen,

You seem like a smart guy and you're a fellow Northwesterner, so I
hate to rain on your parade. We get enough of that here as it is.
But...
Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."
Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right? The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)

Not specifically, but consider: If the boat is worth $20K, or $15K, or
even $8K, why doesn't the owner sell it himself, pay off his
liens/fees, and pocket at least a little profit? Abandoned vehicles of
any sort are usually in poor condition. But, like I said, it's always
possible that you could wind up with a fabulous deal.

....snip...
insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?
Meanwhile I can have fun sailing and cruising around the massive
shoreline that is Puget Sound with my family. Even if it needs a few
thousand for a new motor and a few thousand for new sails, I can put my
elbow grease into it, etc, and have it worth more in five years or so,
if I want to move up in boats, or if I want to get out of boats altogether.

My short answer is, "No." Maybe after a lucky deal on a used Swan or a
"collectible" boat or something, but not for a Hunter or most any boat
you're looking at. As always, there could always be a specific
exception and/or I could simply be be wrong. But that's my $.02.

Good luck! Keep us informed of your progress.

Frank

Frank Maier wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:

[...]
Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right? The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)


Not specifically, but consider: If the boat is worth $20K, or $15K, or
even $8K, why doesn't the owner sell it himself, pay off his
liens/fees, and pocket at least a little profit?

My guess was that he (they) can't, he doesn't have the money to get his
boat out of the impound first so he can sell it. He let the payments
slide for too long.

Abandoned vehicles of
any sort are usually in poor condition. But, like I said, it's always
possible that you could wind up with a fabulous deal.

I guess the marinas make the renters put up their boats as collateral
upon failure to pay as happens with cars and car payments, and plenty of
good cars get repo'd, right? They don't fit in the same category as
"abandoned." The boat or car gets taken even when the owner badly
doesn't want it to, unlike abandoned vehicles.

Their misfortune is my fortune! cough

...snip...

insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?
Meanwhile I can have fun sailing and cruising around the massive
shoreline that is Puget Sound with my family. Even if it needs a few
thousand for a new motor and a few thousand for new sails, I can put my
elbow grease into it, etc, and have it worth more in five years or so,
if I want to move up in boats, or if I want to get out of boats altogether.


My short answer is, "No." Maybe after a lucky deal on a used Swan or a
"collectible" boat or something, but not for a Hunter or most any boat
you're looking at. As always, there could always be a specific
exception and/or I could simply be be wrong. But that's my $.02.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to re-gauge my estimation of Hunters. They don't
make Catalina's look like MacGregors, then? I figured since I heard good
things about them and couldn't find cheap ones anywhere on the internet,
they were a cut above the other stuff I've been looking at. Like, what's
better, a Hunter or a Ranger? I'm leaning toward the lighter/faster
boats for more speed and because I don't need as much seaworthiness,
since I'll probably never get out of Puget Sound.

Good luck! Keep us informed of your progress.

Thanks!

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Frank Maier wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
....snip...
My guess was that he (they) can't, he doesn't have the money to get his
boat out of the impound first so he can sell it. He let the payments
slide for too long.
....snip...
I guess the marinas make the renters put up their boats as collateral
upon failure to pay as happens with cars and car payments, and plenty of
good cars get repo'd, right? They don't fit in the same category as
"abandoned." The boat or car gets taken even when the owner badly
doesn't want it to, unlike abandoned vehicles.

You're conceptualizing a repo on a vehicle with some value to a
lender; but this scenario is much closer to a lien against a vehicle
(boat) so worthless that the owner is unable to turn it into enough
cash to cover the lien. Don't think "repo," think impound or
mechanic's lien against a vehicle which isn't worth what's owed to the
offended party. But, ICBW.

....snip...
Hmm, I guess I'll have to re-gauge my estimation of Hunters. They don't
make Catalina's look like MacGregors, then? I figured since I heard good
things about them and couldn't find cheap ones anywhere on the internet,
they were a cut above the other stuff I've been looking at. Like, what's
better, a Hunter or a Ranger?...snip...

Many people would contend that Catalinas are better built than
Hunters. It's analogous to Fiat and Renault debating which is more
dependable. Scylla vs. Charybdis. Your choice.

Me, I'd prefer the Ranger. But, like I said a while back, I think you
could be happy/safe (enough) gunkholing around Puget Sound even in a
Newport, which is, IMO, a distinct cut below Catalina/Hunter, which
are (again IMO) a cut below Beneteau, a marque which some consider the
absolute pits.

My essential rule of life for most things: It ain't the inital cost;
it's the upkeep. Others have made some pretty useful and informative
suggestions in this thread. I'd re-read the whole thread and digest it
for a bit before moving too quickly to a final decision.

Frank