Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Well, the idea is to have furling on the most used sails: staysail and
jib. In heavy weather, you have the mizzen and a staysail, or maybe
1/3 jib unrolled. Yes, they can be pokey and they don't point well
compared to a sloop, but they have other advantages on broad reaches
and the like. Personally, I don't find another stick a big hassle, but
it's a great place to mount the radar and other bits and pieces.

Oh, and the safety factor or having an extra mast for redundancy, in case
one comes down...? Well, if you'll notice, many ketches use a triatic stay
as part of their rigging. This ties the masts together! If one comes down,
they're both coming down. Twice as much work, even in failure more!

You know, I haven't seen that particular widow-maker on ANY schooner
or ketch outside of a picture book. I agree that they're a menace, but
I can't say I believe anyone seriously uses them anymore.


The ability of a ketch to customize a wider variety of sail combinations
than a sloop is theoretically true. So what? A sloop with a roller furling
jib and some kind of short-hand-friendly flying sail (asymmetrical
spinnaker, cruising 'chute, whatever) is capable of easily and simply
creating a pretty damned wide variety of sail configurations itself.

Yes, with a taller mast, which means bigger main, etc. What I like is
the committed staysail stay, which can be the last sail up in big
wind, and yet is far kinder to drive than a mostly rolled up yankee,
say.

The
"fact" that a ketch can put up staysails in combination with various size
sails on her dual masts, along with various types of jibs, etc. doesn't
necessarily mean that the ketch has a *better* ability to fly the perfect
sailplan for a given condition.

No, it doesn't. But the possibility is there, and I find I can handle
a marginally larger ketch than sloop due to individual sail areas. I
lose on pointing, but gain on downwind. Also, when you comtemplate
less-common options, like a mizzen spinnaker, you can rig maximum sail
for prolonged light-air conditions.

I guarantee that a sloop with a roller
furling jib and an easy-to-handle flying sail will make better time and
arrive at her destination with a more rested crew than a ketch in almost all
conditions, especially if there's any windward work involved.

Maybe. But I would hesitate to make blanket statements of that kind
other than I agree they don't point as high generally.

And by the way, IMO, you should replace your standing rigging every ten
years. Wanna get a coupla cost estimates of the price difference between
rerigging a sloop and rerigging a ketch? Ouch!

Sure, but if anti-ketch sentiments prevail, I'll get a great deal and
will save enough to re-rig, right? G

For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

Yawls are great, too, in certain conditions and waters, but I bet
Don's one of the few people who can still sail one effectively. You
see the occasional new ketch design, but a yawl? Not unless it's
custom.

The other multi-mast type of rig, although not mentioned in the OP, is the
schooner. Guess what I think about them? cynical grin

I find a ketch solves most of the problems of a schooner, unless I am
delivering tea from China to Baltimore, in which case I'll go with the
schooner. Recall "Atlantic": schooners are no slouches, or don't have
to be.

snip


SLOOPS

A modern simple sloop is really an elegant setup, especially for
single-or-short-handers. A main with single-line reefing, a roller-furling
jib, and some kind of easy-to-use flying sail give you a rig which is simple
and easy to handle, easy to adjust for changing conditions, and a lot
cheaper than buying all the sails you need to power a ketch through the same
range of conditions.

Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

I can anticipate how you view junk rigs or gaff-rigs...G

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 23 Mar 2004 13:39:41 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:


To be blunt, my short answer is, "Yes." Even for full keel, heavy
displacement, low aspect ratio, multi-stick etc. boats, my personal
belief is that passive methods are not as good as active methods. In
shorthand, that'd be "lying a-hull is passe." Like all
generalizations, it's too broadly stated; but again, we're not writing
full-length novels to each other here and we hafta use some shortcuts.

I would tend to agree if only because of the psychological benefit of
doing "something" over nothing. But realistically, the boat, the
weather and the crew would dictate entirely my response, were it mine
to call.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 23 Mar 2004 19:35:47 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

Well, it is....It's also foolish to bungee jump, use the black slope
while skiing or drive 150 Mph with a motorbike....


Cheers!


Remco

Best cruiser... ketches
 

On 3/23/04 6:36 PM, in article ,
"DSK" wrote:

Should I have put a smiley on that last post?
Sheldon Haynie wrote:
Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop.

Maybe it depends on how you define "properly designed." Some of the
yawls I've sailed in company with were old low-aspect sloops with the
boom docked and a mizzen stuck in place.

Well most rig options/conversion are not per se a good design, but a
compromise. In very light breeze, without the mizzen, we can get a lee helm,
sort of a reminder to put the bow down and drive.


Most of those are gone now.
OTOH we have a dock neighbor with a Seafarer 34, originally a yawl, but
now sailed as a sloop, and the owner reports that it handles the same
and that they always dropped the mizzen anyway when beating.


As do we, careful measurement shows faster upwind (there is an oxymoronic
comment for CCA designs) without.


In some of the old advertising brochures, such as the Allieds or the
Cape Dories, you can see the sailplans for the yawl version right next
to the sloop version... is the mast in the same spot?

IIRC the Bermuda 40 was never offered as a sloop?


The B-40 was offered as sloop or Yawl, the mast was raised 2 ft in Mark II
and raised a further 2 ft and moved 2ft aft in the Mark III if I recall.



... And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

Agreed. One more advantage of a centerboard. Plus you can get it up out
of the way going downwind.

Or come right into the beach at 4' draft



You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

I kind of like having the mizzen mast right where it is handy. It makes
a nice secure hand hold and a great mounting point for radar. It does
get in the way of the solar panel arch though ;)

Well my mizzen carries the radar, fog horn, various antenna, flags and such.
A Solar arch or davits is sort of a compromise too, handy but not my idea of
a good design feature... Then again many would look at my brightwork and
run.



Fresh Breezes- Doug King


--
Sheldon Haynie
Texas Instruments
50 Phillipe Cote
Manchester, NH 03101
603 222 8652

Flame War here?
 

Flame War here?
 

and frank gladly shows one and all that he is not really, really, really,
really dumb by being really, really, really, really dumb (note the incorrect
usage of the word "transference" he just today found in the dictionary).

frank, I know you won't understand this, but I am posting it anyway so that
other people can laugh at you.
you see, frank, when someone is REALLY dumb they are too dumb to even begin
to
realize they are dumb. most usually these really dumb ones -- such as
yourself
-- just go right on claimig they personally knew everything it was possible
to
know by the time they got out of 6th grade the second time.
got you have gainful employment, frank. wouldn't want you to be a drain on
your
country's welfare system.
you may continue to babble, frank.

Thanks. Here's a babble just for you.

Every time Jax opens his mouth, he's as fallacious as a rapper's
chickenhead is fellatious.

A partial list of Jax's most frequent fallacies:

ad hominem and tu quoque: Jax always goes straight to the ad hominem.
If someone else beats him to an insult ("Jax, you're an idiot!"), his
fallback is the tu quoque. "No! You're an idiot!"

ad verecundiam: Then there are all the famous (to him) people he
knows. This constitutes arguing from an authority. "I know a(n
important) guy who says you can sail upwind under bare poles." And the
self-aggrandizing version, "I had sex with a Playboy bunny. Therefore,
I am a desirable person." Of course, we know that one is *kinda* true.
Masturbating while looking at a certerfold is, technically, having sex
with a Playboy bunny.

ad numerum, refined by ad crumenam: The ad numerum gets him to the
ballpark where he wants to play. "Most smart people (in the Jax
universe) believe X." From there, he refines it to an elitist version
with an ad crumenam. "The very smartest people (Jax himself and maybe
God, on one of His good days) believe XsubY." Usually with an ad
hominem thrown in, just because that seems to be his favorite, "But
*you* are a low-IQ prole and couldn't even understand X, much less
XsubY."

ad nauseum: Y'all know this one. "I'm smarter than all of you." "I'm
smart; you're dumb." "My middle name is MENSA." "My IQ is eight
bazillion, based on a test I took once, given by a group which would
get membership dues from me if I scored at least eight bazillion. And
I did!" "Did I mention how smart I am?" And on, and on...

non causa pro causa: Declaring that independent events actually have a
cause-and-effect relationship. "I couldn't find the Gulf Stream.
Therefore, the Gulf Stream is difficult to find." Well, I guess a
psychologist might wanna call that one "transference" or something.
It's the Gulf Stream's fault, not mine.

No Flame War here
 

On 24 Mar 2004 13:55:27 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:


Thanks. Here's a babble just for you.


ad hominem and tu quoque: ...
If someone else beats him to an insult ("Jax, you're an idiot!"), his
fallback is the tu quoque. "No! You're an idiot!"

ad verecundiam: Then there are all the famous (to him) people he
knows. This constitutes arguing from an authority. "I know a(n
important) guy who says you can sail upwind under bare poles." And the
self-aggrandizing version, "I had sex with a Playboy bunny. Therefore,
I am a desirable person." ...

ad numerum, refined by ad crumenam: The ad numerum gets him to the
ballpark where he wants to play. "Most smart people ... believe X."
From there, he refines it to an elitist version
with an ad crumenam. "The very smartest people (...maybe
God, on one of His good days) believe XsubY." ...

ad nauseum: Y'all know this one. "I'm smarter than all of you." "I'm
smart; you're dumb." "My middle name is MENSA." "My IQ is eight
bazillion, based on a test I took once, given by a group which would
get membership dues from me if I scored at least eight bazillion. And
I did!" "Did I mention how smart I am?" And on, and on...

non causa pro causa: Declaring that independent events actually have a
cause-and-effect relationship. "I couldn't find the Gulf Stream.
Therefore, the Gulf Stream is difficult to find."

Wow! Now that's what I call an educational post.
And I know an educational post when I see one.
Nobody better....

:-)

Brian W

No Flame War here
 

"I had sex with a Playboy bunny.

centerfold. also a centerfold from Viva

No Flame War here
 

I know a(n
important) guy who says you can sail upwind under bare poles.

Important? well, he did climb mountains.

No Flame War here
 

My IQ is eight
bazillion, based on a test I took once,

SAT, GCT, Stanford-Binet, proctored Mensa, and a bunch of others.

No Flame War here
 

I couldn't find the Gulf Stream.

did find it, as a matter of fact.

let me help you out on this one. this is a week ago today:

http://www.deos.tudelft.nl/altim/gulfstream/#07

No Flame War here
 

You buy paper towels that have a centerfold? I'm sure that concept appeals to
you, jaxie.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
"I had sex with a Playboy bunny.

centerfold. also a centerfold from Viva

Flame War here?
 

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner...yes, it's the Jesuit-trained
sailor Frank "The Jurist" Maier....G


On 24 Mar 2004 13:55:27 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:


Every time Jax opens his mouth, he's as fallacious as a rapper's
chickenhead is fellatious.

That will haunt me for a long time, that will.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

In article ,
(JAXAshby) wrote:

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.


Some people, sailing in 20 knot winds, ARE foolish -- and dangerous.

(nothing personal to anyone, I'm thinking of some in the BVI)

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:09:55 GMT, (Remco
Moedt) wrote:
On 23 Mar 2004 19:35:47 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

Well, it is....It's also foolish to bungee jump, use the black slope
while skiing or drive 150 Mph with a motorbike....

======================================

20 kt winds are par for the course in some locales and are frequently
encountered offshore, sometimes for days at a time. No big problem
for the right boat and the right crew, but I can tell you from
personal experience that going to weather in 20 kts gets real old and
tiresome after a few days in any boat I've sailed that was under 50
feet long.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

"Wayne.B" wrote:
I can tell you from
personal experience that going to weather in 20 kts gets real old and
tiresome after a few days in any boat I've sailed that was under 50
feet long.

Or over 50 feet. Spent nine days this fall beating into 20 knots from the DR
to BVI on a 120' schooner. That wore everybody down.

Carl

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

x-no-archive:yes Wayne.B wrote:

On 22 Mar 2004 19:48:15 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

The myth of 200 mile days as typical is just a myth.

===============================================

I have sailed more 200 mile days than I can remember but for the most
part they were on large, well equipped racing boats over 40 feet. All
you need is a day of good reaching conditions where you can average a
bit over 8 knots. Not that difficult on a good boat, you just need
the right conditions.

At the risk of creating consternation, I do not believe that a 200
mile day is a myth, assuming we are talking about a 24 hour day. We
did 168 nm in a day and we were only motor sailing in a slow old
sailboat. If we'd had any appreciable wind and hadn't had to struggle
in the inlet against a lot of current we'd have done it quicker.


grandma Rosalie

Flame War here?
 

rhys wrote:
...snip... it's the Jesuit-trained
sailor Frank "The Jurist" Maier....G

Hey! I'm always glad to get some use out of that expensive education!
All those Latin and Greek classes didn't do me much good in the job
market. grin

Every time Jax opens his mouth, he's as fallacious as a rapper's
chickenhead is fellatious.

That will haunt me for a long time, that will.

Took me a while to come up with that one; glad you appreciated it.
Maybe it'll open a market for a new kind of bobble-head doll?

Nah! Let's not go there...

Flame War here?
 

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Jere Lull wrote:
(JAXAshby) wrote:

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

Some people, sailing in 20 knot winds, ARE foolish -- and dangerous.
(nothing personal to anyone, I'm thinking of some in the BVI)

Oh, yeah! The charter companies all threaten to send a training
captain with you if they're unhappy with your skills; but it sure
seems like they just hand the keys over to anyone nowadays without
ever seeing if they can actually sail the boat.

Survival Methods - was Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

x-no-archive:yes

(Frank Maier) wrote:

(Bob Whitaker) wrote:
...snip...
You mentioned that this thread has spawned a couple if interesting
sub-threads, and I have another sub-thread for you. What do you think
of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? Years ago my Coast Guard Auxiliary
instructor was "big" on ketch (or yawl) rigs due to the smaller sails
and because a reefed sail on the mizzen mast could act as a weather
vane, pointing the bow to the wind and helping prevent the boat from
lying abeam to the waves. Is this one of those tactics you now
consider "passe"?

We're starting to get too many subthreads for me to follow. I gave my
standard diatribe about rigs in response to your response to DSK,
where you ask that as a P.S. So, jump over there for several
paragraphs of my opinions. (Worth every penny you paid for 'em!)

I believe that up through the 60s ~ early 70s, survival methods tended
to favor passive styles, e.g. lying a-hull. My interpretation of what
I've read about tactics since then (including Coles et al.) and my
personal experience favors active methods, e.g running off. But as I
said, everything has worked, and also failed to work, for different
people in different circumstances; so I think you'd be hard pressed to
definitively defend any given style of dealing with bad conditions.
Someone can always point to an exception and say, "But what about ..."
Me, I'd say that any opinion opposite mine is a case of abusus non
tollit usum; but I'll bet that those who oppose my positions would say
that *I'm* arguing abusus...

Does lying ahull (which I would not want to do personally) go in the
same category as heaving to?

To be blunt, my short answer is, "Yes." Even for full keel, heavy
displacement, low aspect ratio, multi-stick etc. boats, my personal
belief is that passive methods are not as good as active methods. In
shorthand, that'd be "lying a-hull is passe." Like all
generalizations, it's too broadly stated; but again, we're not writing
full-length novels to each other here and we hafta use some shortcuts.


I have heard that a fin keel boat can't heave to as well as a full
keel boat. I don not know for sure if this is true, but I've seen a
video tape which purports to show that it is.

grandma Rosalie

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement. Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

The myth of 200 mile days as typical is just a myth.

============================================== =

I have sailed more 200 mile days than I can remember but for the most
part they were on large, well equipped racing boats over 40 feet. All
you need is a day of good reaching conditions where you can average a
bit over 8 knots. Not that difficult on a good boat, you just need
the right conditions.

At the risk of creating consternation, I do not believe that a 200
mile day is a myth, assuming we are talking about a 24 hour day. We
did 168 nm in a day and we were only motor sailing in a slow old
sailboat. If we'd had any appreciable wind and hadn't had to struggle
in the inlet against a lot of current we'd have done it quicker.


grandma Rosalie

No Flame War here
 

"Jeff Morris" wrote:
You buy paper towels that have a centerfold?

"JAXAshby" wrote:
...also a centerfold from Viva

Ewwww, gross, Jeff. Now I'll never again be able to buy (or use) Viva paper towels!

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

(nothing personal to anyone, I'm thinking of some in the BVI)


my experience in the BVI is that the vast majority of "sailors" motor away with
the charter boat and motor back back with the charter boat, a nice steady 20
knots of winds blowing most of the time.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

x-no-archive:yes


(JAXAshby) wrote:

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement. Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

I'm saying that in any kind of speedy boat that they ARE pretty
average. Yes sometimes you don't have any wind and you won't be able
to do that much. LIke in our case in a non-speedy boat, we did only
about 160 nm but without much if any wind. And sometimes you'll have
a contrary wind and sometimes too much wind.

We did 60 some nm coming up from Marathon Monday in 13 hours coming
against a contrary wind - mostly about 30 degrees from our heading.
This is way more than we usually do because we mostly travel during
daylight hours and not offshore. OTOH we did 92 nm from West End to
Ft. Pierce in about the same length of time.

So for OUR boat, 200 nm days would not be average or typical. But for
most of the boats that you guys are advocating whilst kind of looking
down your noses at how slow our fat old tub is - I think 200 nm is
kind of a nice easy way to calculate your projected trip.


The myth of 200 mile days as typical is just a myth.

============================================= ==

I have sailed more 200 mile days than I can remember but for the most
part they were on large, well equipped racing boats over 40 feet. All
you need is a day of good reaching conditions where you can average a
bit over 8 knots. Not that difficult on a good boat, you just need
the right conditions.

At the risk of creating consternation, I do not believe that a 200
mile day is a myth, assuming we are talking about a 24 hour day. We
did 168 nm in a day and we were only motor sailing in a slow old
sailboat. If we'd had any appreciable wind and hadn't had to struggle
in the inlet against a lot of current we'd have done it quicker.


grandma Rosalie








grandma Rosalie

No Flame War here
 

Viva was a sister magazine to Penthouse. Viva was pitched as "a class act",
where Penthouse was rougher. Viva folded some years back.

wrote:
You buy paper towels that have a centerfold?

"JAXAshby" wrote:
...also a centerfold from Viva

Ewwww, gross, Jeff. Now I'll never again be able to buy (or use) Viva paper
towels!

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:18:48 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

x-no-archive:yes


(JAXAshby) wrote:

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement. Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

I'm saying that in any kind of speedy boat that they ARE pretty
average. Yes sometimes you don't have any wind and you won't be able
to do that much. LIke in our case in a non-speedy boat, we did only
about 160 nm but without much if any wind. And sometimes you'll have
a contrary wind and sometimes too much wind.

We did 60 some nm coming up from Marathon Monday in 13 hours coming
against a contrary wind - mostly about 30 degrees from our heading.
This is way more than we usually do because we mostly travel during
daylight hours and not offshore. OTOH we did 92 nm from West End to
Ft. Pierce in about the same length of time.

So for OUR boat, 200 nm days would not be average or typical. But for
most of the boats that you guys are advocating whilst kind of looking
down your noses at how slow our fat old tub is - I think 200 nm is
kind of a nice easy way to calculate your projected trip.

With my boat, which isn't particularly fast, when planning a trip I
usually use a 5 knot speed of advance toward the destination which takes
into account windy days, calm days, good direction and bad. For the
trips I've done, that's worked out to be a very good average estimate.

That's 120nm for a 24 hour day for the math challenged.:)

Steve4

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

congrats, steve.

From: (Steven Shelikoff)
Date: 3/25/2004 7:26 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:18:48 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

x-no-archive:yes


(JAXAshby) wrote:

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement.
Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

I'm saying that in any kind of speedy boat that they ARE pretty
average. Yes sometimes you don't have any wind and you won't be able
to do that much. LIke in our case in a non-speedy boat, we did only
about 160 nm but without much if any wind. And sometimes you'll have
a contrary wind and sometimes too much wind.

We did 60 some nm coming up from Marathon Monday in 13 hours coming
against a contrary wind - mostly about 30 degrees from our heading.
This is way more than we usually do because we mostly travel during
daylight hours and not offshore. OTOH we did 92 nm from West End to
Ft. Pierce in about the same length of time.

So for OUR boat, 200 nm days would not be average or typical. But for
most of the boats that you guys are advocating whilst kind of looking
down your noses at how slow our fat old tub is - I think 200 nm is
kind of a nice easy way to calculate your projected trip.

With my boat, which isn't particularly fast, when planning a trip I
usually use a 5 knot speed of advance toward the destination which takes
into account windy days, calm days, good direction and bad. For the
trips I've done, that's worked out to be a very good average estimate.

That's 120nm for a 24 hour day for the math challenged.:)

Steve4

No Flame War here
 

On 25 Mar 2004 10:59:59 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote:
You buy paper towels that have a centerfold?

"JAXAshby" wrote:
...also a centerfold from Viva

Ewwww, gross, Jeff. Now I'll never again be able to buy (or use) Viva paper towels!

I believe Jax finds them more effective than Kleenex when typing
one-handed to boating newsgroups. Perhaps that's because he once faced
a 'mutiny' on the Bounty. G I believe he's considers himself the
"quicker picker upper" in any case

Sorry, I couldn't resist the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to pun on
boats, paper towels, and Jax's epistolatory style. Oh, Jax, I know
you're some sort of Mensan or something, so I'll clarify: that means
"the way you post", and NOT the "way you urinate".

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

rhys wrote: On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800,
....snip a lotta good discussion...
Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing. Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

See ya,

Frank

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 26 Mar 2004 11:53:18 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:


Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

Well,. that's understandable. In my news reader, I try to spot a flash
of red (unread) among hordes of black (read or ignored) type.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

Ah, the beauty of Usenet. Loads of information and critical thought
and none of it paid for.


I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing.

I once heard a similar justification for sleeping with ugly, stupid
people. Sometimes sitting at home is better than going out with loud
morons who haven't a clue and let the hoses rot off the rusted open
thru-hulls. But that's, thankfully, the exception.


Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

Hey, if I find a deal I won't quibble G I might very well change my
thinking, particularly if I decide I want to circumnavigate east to
west G But a ketch still has, in my mind, some advantages,
particularly with a hefty inner forestay and a functional staysail. I
mean, I have a sloop, but one of my favourite points of sail is a beam
reach using a No. 3 on a pendant and my barely used, wire luff "genoa
staysail", a big light thing the original owner evidently couldn't
figure out. I had to reference a brilliant 1975 book called "Sail
Power" by Wally Ross to learn how to set the thing. (It involved the
toerails!)

But in ten knots, that amount of sail will trounce even the biggest
No. 1 and mainsail combo. Anyway, I still have some things to learn
about sloops, so I hope I live long enough to master the ketch. When I
SEE a cat-schooner, I'll try to hitch a ride. I think I saw exactly
one here in Toronto...at a distance. It seemed to move fine G

R.

No Flame War here
 

"Jeff Morris" wrote:
You buy paper towels that have a centerfold?

"JAXAshby" wrote:
...also a centerfold from Viva

(Frank Maier) wrote:
Ewwww, gross, Jeff. Now I'll never again be able to buy (or use) Viva paper towels!

rhys wrote:
I believe Jax finds them more effective than Kleenex when typing
one-handed to boating newsgroups. Perhaps that's because he once faced
a 'mutiny' on the Bounty. G I believe he's considers himself the
"quicker picker upper" in any case
....snip...

Snort! Keyboard!

Man this is getting to be an expensive thread. First, I need a new
keyboard and now there are *two* brands of paper towels I'll never
again be able to use.

No Flame War here
 

Man this is getting to be an expensive thread. First, I need a new
keyboard and now there are *two* brands of paper towels I'll never
again be able to use.

you are easily influenced by outside sources. buy another talisman, and put
over your head another double layer of aluminum foil.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

rhys wrote:
...snip... When I
SEE a cat-schooner, I'll try to hitch a ride. I think I saw exactly
one here in Toronto...at a distance. It seemed to move fine G

AFAIK, only the F39 is scoonerish. The F40, F44, and F33 are all
cat-ketches; and an occasional other size of Freedom is set up as a
cat-ketch. The masts are approximately equal or the forward mast is
taller. But for the F39, the forward mast is distinctly shorter. That
particular boat also comes in a pilothouse and non-pilothouse version.
Another of my prejudices is that I don't wanna have a pilothouse out
on the deep blue; so, I'd be looking for a non-pilothouse version.

Frank

No Flame War here
 

On 27 Mar 2004 14:56:57 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

buy another talisman, and put
over your head another double layer of aluminum foil.

A reasonable fascimile of the JAXAshby family crest is thus achieved:
a skipper's cap, argent, with fuzzy dice rampant.

"Nemo surdior est quam is qui non audiet" is the motto below, I
believe.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On 26 Mar 2004 11:53:18 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

I have a sloop, but one of my favourite points of sail is a beam
reach using a No. 3 on a pendant and my barely used, wire luff "genoa
staysail", a big light thing the original owner evidently couldn't
figure out. I had to reference a brilliant 1975 book called "Sail
Power" by Wally Ross to learn how to set the thing. (It involved the
toerails!)

But in ten knots, that amount of sail will trounce even the biggest
No. 1 and mainsail combo.

I have waxed poetic about the genoa staysail many times in this
forum. I think if people actually discovered how useful these
things were the cutter rig would become deriguer again ;=)
It really can't be beat on a close reach (except by maybe a code
zero), and if you're cruising it's a great sail in light to moderate
wind. The GS is hanked on above the heavy staysail, and
when the wind increases the GS comes off pretty quickly and the
heavy is hoisted. Beats the heck out of firing up the noisemaker
(particulalry when it's warm out). I have found in the light stuff
that if you give up and fire up the engine, it normally stays on.
But, if you have good sails that are easy to change you stay
involved in the sailing side and work your way through the
variable winds.

Matt

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Jax ; explained
 

No Flame War here
 

rhys wrote:
A reasonable fascimile of the JAXAshby family crest is thus achieved:
a skipper's cap, argent, with fuzzy dice rampant.

"Nemo surdior est quam is qui non audiet" is the motto below, I
believe.

My mother, good Southern girl that she was (God rest her soul!),
always used to say, "You can't hear with your mouth open."

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 05:24:21 GMT, "Matt/Meribeth Pedersen"
wrote:

But, if you have good sails that are easy to change you stay
involved in the sailing side and work your way through the
variable winds.

Amen, brother. I use the engine to get out and in of the basin and if
the angle's right, not until I have to turn that first 90 around the
docks.

Motorsailing's fine when necessary, but a lot of people have a funny
idea to my mind of what "necessary" means. Think of it this way.
Today, you are sailing. All day, and maybe into the evening. You may
or may not have a destination. Turn off the cell phone and engine and
just...sail....Better than a session in the hot tub to my mind,
although coming back from the boat TO a hot tub would be kingly
indeed.

R.