Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

You drifted for 6 hours???


it is difficult to sail once the hired captain has lowered and tied down the
sails.

It is difficult to motor once the hired captain has turned off the engine.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Subject: Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
From: (JAXAshby)

Jax, you were nothing but signed on baggage/muscle. If this guy was REALLY a
"career merchant marine" with some type of deck license, YOU would be the LAST
person he would confer with about his position.
Your, or I should say his, problem had nothing to do with the accuracy of the
charts (especially considering the number of GPS's, onboard) .... it had
EVERYTHING to do with NOT knowing where you were and where you were going.
Obviously, you've never learned ..... on boats or ships, people like you (no
knowledge, no experience, no ability) are meant to be used ..... not heard
(exceptions noted .... you don't qualify).

Shen

yup, me AND the career merchant marine, both lost. Or more accurately,
neither
he nor I completely trusted the charts to be completely accurate. That's the
same as being lost, I guess.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Hi folks

I have little experience at sea. I have raced SJ28's in Puget Sound for about
eight years, and have island hopped in Palau and Micronesia.

My direct knowledge is, therefore, limited.

I enjoy lurking here, as it is quite educational, and contributes, in many
ways, to my fantasies and "someday's".

I cant, understand, however, what you all have against the person signing in as
JAXAshby. Maybe I wasn't here when he raped someone's wife, but I have
considered his contributions as useful as most of the others I have read here.

Of course, I haven't the broad experience you all have and may be taken in.

In any case, I intend to lurk and learn.

cheers

oz

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Two thoughts:
1. oz, you haven't been lurking all that long.
2. "You can fool some of the people, all of the time; all of the people,
some of the time........"

Major oz wrote:
Hi folks

I have little experience at sea. I have raced SJ28's in Puget Sound for about
eight years, and have island hopped in Palau and Micronesia.

My direct knowledge is, therefore, limited.

I enjoy lurking here, as it is quite educational, and contributes, in many
ways, to my fantasies and "someday's".

I cant, understand, however, what you all have against the person signing in as
JAXAshby. Maybe I wasn't here when he raped someone's wife, but I have
considered his contributions as useful as most of the others I have read here.

Of course, I haven't the broad experience you all have and may be taken in.

In any case, I intend to lurk and learn.

cheers

oz

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

s

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 20:05:17 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
wrote:

You drifted for 6 hours???

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

....but it was only supposed to be a 3 hour cruise, a 3 hour cruise...

feel free to sing along:)




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeggies, why check the intake? For what purpose?

You drifted for 6 hours without checking the intake???
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Of course, I haven't the broad experience you all have

actually, you have more experience than they do. You have been on a boat.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

actually, it was supposed to be an easy, three day cruise. should have been,
too.

You drifted for 6 hours???

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

...but it was only supposed to be a 3 hour cruise, a 3 hour cruise...

feel free to sing along:)




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeggies, why check the intake? For what purpose?

You drifted for 6 hours without checking the intake???
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Jax wrote:

dougies, don't be foolish. *you* are advocating taking a Nimrod offshore
with
your statement. yacht brokers, most of them, won't list a Nimrod they know
has
been taken offshore, for the boat doesn't usually pass survey upon sale.

Wo ho! :-)

Thanks for that one. It's spring time in the NW, and my gardening wife has been
nagging me to bring home several bags of steer manure. A statement that most
yacht brokers won't even list such and such a boat saves me the trouble. I
printed off about 50 copies of your post, ran them through the shredder, and
now have a miraculously fertile mulch that should produce fully ripened
tomatoes by mid-April.

As an ex yacht broker, (and still working on a daily basis with brokers,
surveyors, etc) I must absolutely disagree. No yacht broker who intends to
survive in the business will make a sight-unseen evaluation of a potential
listing, based solely upon whether the boat has been used under condition A or
condition B.

If a boat has been offshore and remains undamaged, the offshore experience is
unimportant. If the most prestigious trademark on the planet has a fractured
hull to deck joint, cracked bulkheads, etc etc etc as a result of offshore
abuse, the brand name won't save it.

Used boats must be evaluated on an individual basis. Relying too heavily on
stereotype and the dockside rumor mill sometimes results in a prospect's
failure to consider a well found boat that would be ideal for his or her
purposes. More often, it
causes a prospective buyer to gloss over survey exceptions and other warnings,
as, (after all), what could possibly be incurably wrong with a Brand X?

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Hello Doug,

How are you doing? Nice to hear from you again. I had a fantastic
weekend, how about yourself? I came back to many interesting posts,
and amongst them I found yours:

Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

kindergarten squabbling

Kindergarten? This is very amusing even if it's getting really
tiresome to correct your mistakes time after time. Here is the
evidence: I posted a question about sailing and you replied with
references to toilets. Now, who's the one reverting to Kindergarten
behavior? The evidence is there, Doug, indexed by Google for
posterity.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

You are correct, I was repeating myself. Wasn't sure you had seen it
the first time around.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

That is very funny Doug... Now it is you who are repeating yourself,
thus you have just defeated yourself by your own yardstick :)

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing?

Well, since you ask, it's hard to say exactly, something about the
books I read as a kid and the fact that I've been close to sailboats
all my life. There's many reasons why I am interested in sailing,
Doug, but instead of elaborating, can you please tell us again why
_YOU_ are interested in being rude to other group members? Even if
it's "mildly" rude as you admitted yourself? I know that most
newsgroups have a few insecure individuals who try to bolster their
weak egos by trying to belittle others. That may not be your case, but
I am really curious. Can you please elaborate on your true motivation?

By the way, I will repeat myself once more so pay close attention. I
will assume that overall you are a decent human being. I will assume
you regret your snotty opening post. I will assume that you have
learned your lesson. I will assume your rude behavior was a knee jerk
reaction, brought about by years of infighting on Usenet. Furthermore
I will assume that this newsgroup is now a slightly better place
because you will be a little less likely to be rude to strangers in
the future. I have done my part. I called your bluff and so far you
have shown a pretty weak hand.

Consider the wonderful information being shared by members such as
Frank and Wayne to name a few. That is the true spirit of Usenet
coming forth. Many thanks to them and the rest.

Bob Whitaker

P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? I'm going to
ask Frank this same question, but I welcome participation from all.
Also, nice pictures of you and your wife flying the spinnaker on the
Jn-18. And by the way, I'm still curious about what you think of Cape
Dorys.




DSK wrote in message t...
Bob Whitaker wrote:
... Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing? It seems to take a back
seat to kindergarten squabbling.

DSK

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Hello Frank (and others),

Thanks for your reply. I always read your posts with great interest.
You mentioned many years of experience talking to sailors since the
late 50's. Those of us with less experience welcome the fact that you
are willing to share yours. That is the beauty of Usenet. We can have
"conversations" with experienced sailors without being on the same
dock (so to speak).

You mentioned that this thread has spawned a couple if interesting
sub-threads, and I have another sub-thread for you. What do you think
of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? Years ago my Coast Guard Auxiliary
instructor was "big" on ketch (or yawl) rigs due to the smaller sails
and because a reefed sail on the mizzen mast could act as a weather
vane, pointing the bow to the wind and helping prevent the boat from
lying abeam to the waves. Is this one of those tactics you now
consider "passe"? Do you have any experience or words of wisdom in
that respect?

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"


(Frank Maier) wrote in message . com...
This thread has spawned a coupla sub-threads; so I'm gonna just make a
few
general comments here. As always, this is my opinion from my
experiences, YMMV.

Centerboards:

Like most things in life, it's often the execution that's more
important
than the concept. Well designed and well built centerboards are a
great boon
for shallow-water sailing; but a bad centerboard is a nightmare. Well,
a
pain in the ass, at least.

Heavy weather sailing (bare poles, lying ahull, etc.):

What an imtimidatingly broad topic! There are a lotta full-length
books
about this and reducing it to a few paragraphs here will probably lead
to
acrimony because of misunderstandings; but I'll throw out a few
comments
from my personal perspective.

I've raced and cruised on a variety of boats in a variety of weather:
a
full-keel Alden 42 ketch, a "cutaway" keel Challenger 40 ketch, a
folkboat,
and several different fin-keel racer-cruiser sloops, from light air to
a_whole_lotta_wind. [Brief aside: It's been my experience (not to be
confused with objective reality) that really heavy weather experiences
can
be counted on the fingers; but light air happens all the time. My boat
must
be able to survive heavy weather; but I want one which can also sail
in
light air.]

So, I've never gone to bare poles. I think lying a-hull is a passe
tactic
which probably wasn't even "good" for heavy full-keel boats back when
that's
all there was. My opinion is that experience has shown us that
maintaining
speed and, more significantly, control is a better survival tactic.
But no
one has ever done a rigorous, "scientific," double-blind type
comparison
test. Typically all we have to go on are anecdotes; and boats have
survivied, and failed to survive, using every variety of tactic. So,
you're
still kinda left in a position where ya gotta choose your own poison.

I've come to my position after reading most of the works on this
topic,
talking to other sailors since the late 50s, and my own experiences.
My best
recommendation is that, rather than take anyone's advice here, go do
the
same yourself. Heavy weather in mid-ocean while cruising on a heavy
displacement boat is not the same as heavy weather in mid-ocean racing
a
go-fast design. I've done both and come to my conculsions to my own
satisfaction. I'd say you're generally better off following your own
heart,
rather than blindly going through someone else's heavy-weather
checklist.

Beating off a lee sho

Well, here's where you definitely want a fin keel sloop in preference
to a
full-keel ketch. There have been discussions here on Usenet about what
"weatherly" means. If a boat can point high, but makes terrible
leeway, is
it truly weatherly?

Pooping (including surfing, double-enders, and small cockpits):

Except for the fact that he really liked sailing the Ranger, from
reading
his other comments, I'd hafta say that Matt and I are from opposite
ends of
the spectrum. SC31, Tayana, Baba, etc. are boats which I consider
unseaworthy. IMO, modern double-enders and small cockpits are a style
decision, not a functional one. Well, I kinda take that back. If you
have a
typical double-ender, you actually do need a small cockpit because you
(probably) lack reserve buoyancy. And most of the double-enders
mentioned in
this thread are heavy displacement. That means that they resisist
surfing.
That means that they get pooped constantly. Not what I consider fun.
Or a
sensible design decision. But, Man!, they *look* nautical.

Conclusion:

In a sense, Usenet is like real life, maybe just a bit less polite. At
the
end of the day, you still just wind up with opinions. Allow me to
bring up
my favorite demons, the Pardeys. The have about a bazillion sea miles
and as
broad a range of experiences as you'd ever want. Pretty much every
decision
and every recommendation they make is the opposite of what I prefer.
Do I
defer to their superior experience? Absolutely not. I have enough
experience of my own to trust my judgment for me. Besides, I like
having refrigeration and a
radio; and, with my own engine, I don't hafta constantly ask others
for
tows.

YMMV but that's what works for me,

Frank

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:39:52 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


Of course the boat manufacturers are quite aware of the fact that less
than one percent of boat owners will actually go on an offshore
passage of any significance. It costs quite a bit more to build a
boat for that market and the vast majority of folks don't really need
it, and are not willing to pay for it. If you go to some of the
international cruising centers of the world where people have actually
made offshore passages just to get there, you will find very few boats
under 40 feet, and most are bigger.

I agree entirely, but I don't see it necessarily as a positive
development for the lifestyle of world cruising.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:23:29 -0500, DSK wrote:


And it's important, in a boat like that, to be able to take a severe
tossing, because you'll be in mid-ocean long enough to guarantee that
you'll get one. Except for consistent downwind routes, they have a hard
time making passages. Ask some of the transPac guys how the Westsail 32s
get back from Hawaii... or from Cabo...

Well, yes, that's a major trade-off. Of course, Moitessier solved that
problem in the '60s...just keep going until you arrive back where you
started! Seriously, though, current thought (when one can discern it
among all the floating rec rooms at boat shows) seems to be that
faster is better to avoid the rough stuff in the first place, which
means good upwind performance. The "best world cruisers" is great for
a good BS session online, but even marginal boats in good hands can
sail pretty impressively...and some nice boats in good shape have been
found adrift because of panicky crew or idiot captains ****ing over
the side....



So, you're advocating going back to the horse and buggy? ;)

Not at all, but some of those boats had desirable characteristics
absent from MOST...not all, thank goodness...of the current crop.
That's why there's such a steady trade in old Perry designs and Brewer
semi-customs and so on...they combine best of old and new-ish.

Seriously, I've read all that and also sailed some of those boats. If
you want an escape from modern life, it's great... you always have Motel
6 to fall back on (which those guys did not). I think that some of the
characteristics of these boats are very good at sea... a kindly motion,
for example, a *secure* cabin, inviolable structural integrity (which
actually those boats didn't have, but failures tended to be in small
bits that were easily repairable with on-board parts & tools). They also
broke out the champagne any time they had a 100-mile 24 hr run.

Well, I am of the opinion that sailboats stink as transport
devices...unless you have nothing resembling a schedule, at which
point they are the best way to travel anywhere there's seven feet of
water. If my (to be hoped for) cruising life contains anything more
pressing than "get to typhoon hole in four months" as a Post-It on the
nav station, I will have not achieved my goals in life. So bring on
the North Sea sailing barges G...ok, maybe not THAT bulletproof....


We were looking more for a given range of cubic & displacement, rather
than an LOA range. And what's wrong with complex mechanical aids? A
windlass and a self-tailing winch are both *great* ways to handle
strains than muscle alone will not.... faster and with more control than
a handy-billy.

I don't consider those complex as I could devise the same mech.
advantage with a strong point and a series of blocks and falls. I
consider ELECTRIC winches, certain forms of autopilot, air
conditioning, large refrigeration set-ups and satellite TV receivers
to fall under "complex mechanical aids" in the sense that it's
unnecessary, too big a draw, too likely to break or too expensive to
maintain. A sturdy windvane AND a better sort of autopilot, preferably
cable or rod linkages over hydraulic, would provide the sort of
redundancy I would prefer. Then, self-steering by sail trim and bungee
cords is the "Hail Mary" of self-steering..essential I think to safe
passagemaking.

Neither are prohibitively expensive (especially if they
come with the boat 2nd-hand) and neither take prohibitive mainenance
IMHO. I don't want to accuse you of being a Luddite but it seems you're
leaning that way... certainly simpler is better, the question is to make
a good choice of systems to include and recognizing their true cost.

With that I will agree, but fewer things to break is a simple credo. I
am not a Luddite in many senses, actually, because while I am suspect
of devices listed above, it will be crucial to living aboard for years
that I have complex SSB/weatherfax/email/satellite comm systems,
powered by carefully shepherded battery banks and charged by
wind/sun/towed generators. Unlike many cruisers, I WILL have kids
aboard, and medical, educational and family reasons dictate that I
have a better than usual degree of connectivity. I just hope that by
the time we go, marine electronics will be a little more integrated
and at a lower price than today.

FWIW I'd agree with the split rig... it is a maintenance hit but it
offers redundancy and it keeps the main truck lower for getting under
fixed bridges. On the East Coast there are a lot of places you can't go
if your 'air draft' is more than 55 feet (16.9m).

Exactly. More bits to fall off but more options to keep sailing. Also,
it's a fudge factor for getting a bigger boat...I think in some ways a
40 foot sloop is harder for a couple to handle than a 45 foot ketch,
but both are borderline unless you are quite fit. Better, I think, to
learn to live and sail with the size of boat you can manage, which may
be quite different boats at various life points.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 22 Mar 2004 10:45:29 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Beating off a lee sho

Well, here's where you definitely want a fin keel sloop in preference
to a
full-keel ketch. There have been discussions here on Usenet about what
"weatherly" means. If a boat can point high, but makes terrible
leeway, is
it truly weatherly?

Not in my book, no. In club racing, the tendency of the boat to make
leeway is generally known and made use of in order to make the mark by
a combination of trimming for the wind, active helming AND factoring
in that little bit of drift. The experienced helmsperson will get a
feel for how responsive their boat is and whether to stand off a lee
shore not due to hazards but due to sea state and the ability of the
boat to claw off. The fin keels excel here, and maybe in 20 years when
Dufours and Beneteaus have canting keels, maybe we'll all laugh at fin
keels. But every design has its strengths and weaknesses: I like to
discover or surmise the strengths, but KNOW the weaknesses....like my
fin keel, spade rudder flat bilged C&C just stinks backing off the
dock under power, but the same boat can turn in a length and I can get
close enough to marks at five plus knots to touch them...because I
know what lee she tends to make.

On the other hand, of course, if I lived in tidal waters, a semi-full
keeler (cutaway forefoot, say) would be great for low-tide maintenance
like the way the English fix stuff on their hulls when their harbours
dry out....

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 22 Mar 2004 20:03:58 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

You mentioned that this thread has spawned a couple if interesting
sub-threads, and I have another sub-thread for you. What do you think
of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs?

You were asking Frank but as I have some heavy weather experience on a
ketch and they are on my short list (or a cutter, for that matter)...

Years ago my Coast Guard Auxiliary
instructor was "big" on ketch (or yawl) rigs due to the smaller sails
and because a reefed sail on the mizzen mast could act as a weather
vane, pointing the bow to the wind and helping prevent the boat from
lying abeam to the waves.

A similar tactic is used at anchor where a reefed down mizzen can act
as a riding sail (on a sloop it's sometimes a hank-on storm jib set on
the backstay). The mizzen, sheeted tight, keeps the bow into the wind,
reducing the side sheer that can unseat an anchor. Also makes for a
quieter ride in a blow.



Is this one of those tactics you now
consider "passe"?

I don't think anything that works is passe, but some things that
worked on older boats don't on newer designs. Deploying warps vs. sea
anchors (off the bow or stern? what about chafe? etc.) to slow the
boat down is one of those perennial debates that is best solved boat
by boat in 30 knots so that you can gain insight for the off chance
you'll need to know at 60 knots.

Five weeks to launch and this year's MOB drills....G

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Flame War here?
 

C'mon folks, let's not let Jax turn this into wrecked.botes. I blocked him
long ago, so I never even see his posts unless someone responds. Let's not
destroy this NG too.

--


Keith
__
'I had to hit him -- he was starting to make sense.'
"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Best 34 foot blue water cruiser

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

goud, you talk to yourself. get out and about and talk with brokers for real,
by actually sitting down at their desks and discuss boats.

*you* want to list a Nimrod that has been taken offshore (understand the kind
of person who would even think of taking a Nimrod offshore is a loose canon to
start with) go ahead. Nobody is stopping you.

*you* try to sell some abused boats as "just right" to some potential buyers
and your rep as a broker is done.

have fun, but don't give up your day job.

Jax wrote:

dougies, don't be foolish. *you* are advocating taking a Nimrod offshore
with
your statement. yacht brokers, most of them, won't list a Nimrod they know
has
been taken offshore, for the boat doesn't usually pass survey upon sale.

Wo ho! :-)

Thanks for that one. It's spring time in the NW, and my gardening wife has
been
nagging me to bring home several bags of steer manure. A statement that most
yacht brokers won't even list such and such a boat saves me the trouble. I
printed off about 50 copies of your post, ran them through the shredder, and
now have a miraculously fertile mulch that should produce fully ripened
tomatoes by mid-April.

As an ex yacht broker, (and still working on a daily basis with brokers,
surveyors, etc) I must absolutely disagree. No yacht broker who intends to
survive in the business will make a sight-unseen evaluation of a potential
listing, based solely upon whether the boat has been used under condition A
or
condition B.

If a boat has been offshore and remains undamaged, the offshore experience is
unimportant. If the most prestigious trademark on the planet has a fractured
hull to deck joint, cracked bulkheads, etc etc etc as a result of offshore
abuse, the brand name won't save it.

Used boats must be evaluated on an individual basis. Relying too heavily on
stereotype and the dockside rumor mill sometimes results in a prospect's
failure to consider a well found boat that would be ideal for his or her
purposes. More often, it
causes a prospective buyer to gloss over survey exceptions and other
warnings,
as, (after all), what could possibly be incurably wrong with a Brand X?

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

current thought (when one can discern it
among all the floating rec rooms at boat shows) seems to be that
faster is better to avoid the rough stuff in the first place,

it is not current thought, but rather current marketing advice, marketing
advice designed to sell bigger boats at higher prices.

At base, the marketing advice states that being on the water is dangerous and
therefore one should spend as little time sailing as possible. The marketing
advice seems to suggest (in a way that is not legally culpable) that a 9 knot
boat will experience no weather at sea, while a 5 knot boat will get pounded
repeatedly. The marketing advice does not *guarantee* 9 knot passages, but
merely suggests that such *might* happen, if you buys a 55 foot, 45,000 pound,
one point five million dollar vessel, rather than a ratty, unsafe, down at the
heel 35 foot boat for one hundred grand.

most people who have actually made long passages report typical daily mileage
is about 120 miles per day, give or take 20 or 30 miles depending on the
weather any particular day.

In other words, the marketing advice is selling boats to that portion of the
markeet that is terrified of the sea and wants to get off the water as quickly
as it can. This is a much larger market than is the market to sailors who find
sailing inherantly interesting.

One of the easiet ways to tell a sailor from a scared to death sailboat buyer
is the winds at which either expresses concern. the death is just around the
corner boat buyer talks of ROUGH seas as those that really are only maybe 4 to
6 feet high (often reported to be 20 footers) with winds of 20 knots (usually
reported not all that far off). the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

t'ain't funny, MaGee. It is real.
Endangering the lives of young coasties with wives and kids back on shore just
because someone lacked the capability to head to sea but did so anyway with and
EPIRB is a serious moral offense in virtually every society in the world.

Can you spell?

E
P
I
R
B


ANYone who thinks that way is a moral cretin.

You are going to endanger the life of a young coastie with wife and kids at
home just to rescue your scummy butt because you wanted to take your boat
where
you were not qualified to take it.

kriste almighty. You should be forcefully sterilized, and your children as
well should you already have childred.

what a putz.

You're funny.

Flame War here?
 

C'mon folks, let's not let Jax turn this into wrecked.botes. I blocked him
long ago, so I never even see his posts unless someone responds. Let's not
destroy this NG too.

"Keith" is not reading this, so let's laugh at him for suggesting that the best
way to learn about boats is to read the most current advertising specs of price
point bay sailor boats. Let him tell that a bigger microwave is a safety
feature because it makes hot chocolate quicker than a smaller microwave "when
one is trying to claw off a lee shore". And a washer/dryer is a safety item
because one doesn't have to carry clothes down the dock to the laundromat where
muggers might hang out.

Don't confuse "keith" with anything real, for he is not going to go sailing
anyway. reality doesn't make a presence in his life. So just laugh at him.
maybe ask him about the latest anchor test showing that a 22# CQR with
stainless steel chain holds better in 8 knot winds than a 21# Bruce with
galvanized chain in 7-1/2 knot winds.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 23 Mar 2004 12:18:58 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

goud, you talk to yourself. get out and about and talk with brokers for real,
by actually sitting down at their desks and discuss boats.

*you* want to list a Nimrod that has been taken offshore (understand the kind
of person who would even think of taking a Nimrod offshore is a loose canon to
start with) go ahead. Nobody is stopping you.

*you* try to sell some abused boats as "just right" to some potential buyers
and your rep as a broker is done.

have fun, but don't give up your day job.

Jax wrote:

dougies, don't be foolish. *you* are advocating taking a Nimrod offshore
with
your statement. yacht brokers, most of them, won't list a Nimrod they know
has
been taken offshore, for the boat doesn't usually pass survey upon sale.

Wo ho! :-)

Thanks for that one. It's spring time in the NW, and my gardening wife has
been
nagging me to bring home several bags of steer manure. A statement that most
yacht brokers won't even list such and such a boat saves me the trouble. I
printed off about 50 copies of your post, ran them through the shredder, and
now have a miraculously fertile mulch that should produce fully ripened
tomatoes by mid-April.

As an ex yacht broker, (and still working on a daily basis with brokers,
surveyors, etc) I must absolutely disagree. No yacht broker who intends to
survive in the business will make a sight-unseen evaluation of a potential
listing, based solely upon whether the boat has been used under condition A
or
condition B.

If a boat has been offshore and remains undamaged, the offshore experience is
unimportant. If the most prestigious trademark on the planet has a fractured
hull to deck joint, cracked bulkheads, etc etc etc as a result of offshore
abuse, the brand name won't save it.

Used boats must be evaluated on an individual basis. Relying too heavily on
stereotype and the dockside rumor mill sometimes results in a prospect's
failure to consider a well found boat that would be ideal for his or her
purposes. More often, it
causes a prospective buyer to gloss over survey exceptions and other
warnings,
as, (after all), what could possibly be incurably wrong with a Brand X?

*You* need to go back and read Chuck's post for content.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

*You* need to go back and read Chuck's post for content.

I did, again. Chuck is saying it is okay to take a litewait Nimrod offshore,
and Chuck is saying that brokers do not care what prior use a boat has had,
they will sell it anyway.

I was saying that my personal conversations with many brokers wherein our
association was anywhere from neglegible to to me and he trying to get to a
deal, I found a number of brokers who stated flatly they would NOT list a
Nimrad that had been taken offshore. Period. I was startled by the vehamence
with which these brokers expressed their distaste for such boats.
Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar beyond the ordinary. Those guys had been burned in the
pocket book, and burned badly. Making a bad deal turn right is a costly one
for a broker who depends on good will to build and keep a customer base. Those
brokers flatly, bluntly stated they would never list such a boat again.

Nimrods are okay for coastal work. Abuse them offshore and they have more
problems than a run over dog. At least according to the first hand reports I
got from brokers.

I paid particular attention to that, for brokers stand to make a commission by
selling a boat. If they don't want to sell a particular boat I hafta ask
myself if they know something I don't.

The original discusssion was the viability of a Bristol 27 vs a PricePoint 36
for offshore passages.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

rhys wrote:

Well, yes, that's a major trade-off. Of course, Moitessier solved that
problem in the '60s...just keep going until you arrive back where you
started! Seriously, though, current thought (when one can discern it
among all the floating rec rooms at boat shows) seems to be that
faster is better to avoid the rough stuff in the first place, which
means good upwind performance.


Well, I'm not sold on the idea that a faster boat can avoid rough
weather entirely, but there is some validity he a faster boat can get
through a smaller weather window on shorter passages... a faster boat
will be have a greater choice in which quadrant she'll take approaching
bad weather... and a faster boat is more likely to reward active sailing
techniques and spend less time in a weather system (note- "scudding
before the storm" sounds romantic but is a lousy way to spend your
weekend, plus it keeps you in the system longer).

IMHO good upwind performance is desirable in a cruising boat anyway, for
a wide variety of reasons. But then it's always a trade-off... one has
to weight what one gets against the costs... good upwind performance at
the cost of an unmanageable rig is a bad trade. However there are good
rigs that are pretty manageable...
a



... The "best world cruisers" is great for
a good BS session online, but even marginal boats in good hands can
sail pretty impressively...and some nice boats in good shape have been
found adrift because of panicky crew or idiot captains ****ing over
the side....


Absolutely. And this is one of the points I keep trying to make
(quietly, so as not to PO any more people than already have). People
have crossed oceans in vessels that were not much more than glorified
refrigerator crates. Given the skills and reasonable equipment, some
pretty bad boats can make good passages. But you can't put the skills on
your MasterCard, and the judgement to choose suitable equipment also
depends on experience and skill. Nobody's marketing this idea
aggressively, therefor it doesn't get much credence.




So, you're advocating going back to the horse and buggy?



Not at all, but some of those boats had desirable characteristics
absent from MOST...not all, thank goodness...of the current crop.
That's why there's such a steady trade in old Perry designs and Brewer
semi-customs and so on...they combine best of old and new-ish.


I'm going to paste Rich's post in here to save bandwidth


Rich Hampel wrote:
I also gotta jump into this as these Perry designs have IMHO sufficient
reserve stern buoyancy due to their quite large 'bustles' .... If you
compare to a Collin Archer type narrow stern hull then I might agree
but not a Perry design 'double ender'.
Nowithstanding that more Perry (full and long keel) design have had
probably the most circumnavigations than any other design house - has
to say something.


IMHO there are a couple of factors in play here. They are capable boats,
but they are also highly favored by well-publicized passagemakers... and
style counts for a LOT. The fact that the Seven Seas group has so many
vocal advocates of these types means that they'll get picked up by a lot
of people with the same goal... who then become vocal advocates... etc
etc. It's sort of like the British Sports Car cabal (I don't mean to
imply that these boats are anywhere near as evil as say a TR-2, just
that popularity can be self-perpetuating regardless of practicality).

All that aside, one of my favorite boats is Robert Perry's Nordic 40.



.... They also broke out the champagne any time they had a 100-mile
24 hr run.



Well, I am of the opinion that sailboats stink as transport
devices...unless you have nothing resembling a schedule, at which
point they are the best way to travel anywhere there's seven feet of
water.


heh heh my goal was four feet of water, but then in the Southeast US
that's still asking a lot.

I agree about a schedule. It's folly to try and push route and course
decisions, especially when weather is a question, for the sake of
keeping a timetable. But people cling to it... in a lot of cases it's
because of valued shoreside connections like family who are under
pressures of their own.


... If my (to be hoped for) cruising life contains anything more
pressing than "get to typhoon hole in four months" as a Post-It on the
nav station, I will have not achieved my goals in life. So bring on
the North Sea sailing barges G...ok, maybe not THAT bulletproof....


We were looking more for a given range of cubic & displacement,
rather than an LOA range. And what's wrong with complex mechanical aids?
A windlass and a self-tailing winch are both *great* ways to handle
strains than muscle alone will not.... faster and with more control than
a handy-billy.



I don't consider those complex as I could devise the same mech.
advantage with a strong point and a series of blocks and falls.


That's a handy-billy. Cumbersome & slow. Very cost effective though, as
long as an OSHA rep isn't watching.

One of the old cruising books I recently gave away had a whole chapter
devoted to clearing an anchor that was snagged on a big-ass rock
somewhere in a little Caribbean anchorage. An ex Royal Navy captain,
cruising into the same anchorage, helped the author clear it which took
all day and three handy-billys rigged at different points. But they got
a multi-ton rock clear (at one point they swamped a dinghy, which is
part of why it took so long) and the Royal Navy man said "Seamanship is
simply the art of moving impossibly heavy objects." A good point.

Having worked with professional industrial riggers moving machinery
weighing tens of tons through piping mazes, I've seen what you can do
with a couple of block-and-tackle arrangements.... but ratcheting chain
hoists are a lot better... faster, more reliable, and basically safer.
So are self-tailing winches IMHO... and the maintenance + expense hit is
not very large. In other words it appears to me a very worthwhile trade-off.

Now, we can discuss refrigeration... there's a question with many
angles... to me it appears worth it, but there are certainly a lot of
reasons against it. The costs are higher and the benefits slimmer.



...I think in some ways a
40 foot sloop is harder for a couple to handle than a 45 foot ketch,
but both are borderline unless you are quite fit. Better, I think, to
learn to live and sail with the size of boat you can manage, which may
be quite different boats at various life points.


I think the rig question is metastacizing into another sub-thread. Will
meander over there next coffee break

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Doug, serious congratulations. The below is a cogent contributation on your
part.

rhys wrote:

Well, yes, that's a major trade-off. Of course, Moitessier solved that
problem in the '60s...just keep going until you arrive back where you
started! Seriously, though, current thought (when one can discern it
among all the floating rec rooms at boat shows) seems to be that
faster is better to avoid the rough stuff in the first place, which
means good upwind performance.


Well, I'm not sold on the idea that a faster boat can avoid rough
weather entirely, but there is some validity he a faster boat can get
through a smaller weather window on shorter passages... a faster boat
will be have a greater choice in which quadrant she'll take approaching
bad weather... and a faster boat is more likely to reward active sailing
techniques and spend less time in a weather system (note- "scudding
before the storm" sounds romantic but is a lousy way to spend your
weekend, plus it keeps you in the system longer).

IMHO good upwind performance is desirable in a cruising boat anyway, for
a wide variety of reasons. But then it's always a trade-off... one has
to weight what one gets against the costs... good upwind performance at
the cost of an unmanageable rig is a bad trade. However there are good
rigs that are pretty manageable...
a



... The "best world cruisers" is great for
a good BS session online, but even marginal boats in good hands can
sail pretty impressively...and some nice boats in good shape have been
found adrift because of panicky crew or idiot captains ****ing over
the side....


Absolutely. And this is one of the points I keep trying to make
(quietly, so as not to PO any more people than already have). People
have crossed oceans in vessels that were not much more than glorified
refrigerator crates. Given the skills and reasonable equipment, some
pretty bad boats can make good passages. But you can't put the skills on
your MasterCard, and the judgement to choose suitable equipment also
depends on experience and skill. Nobody's marketing this idea
aggressively, therefor it doesn't get much credence.




So, you're advocating going back to the horse and buggy?



Not at all, but some of those boats had desirable characteristics
absent from MOST...not all, thank goodness...of the current crop.
That's why there's such a steady trade in old Perry designs and Brewer
semi-customs and so on...they combine best of old and new-ish.


I'm going to paste Rich's post in here to save bandwidth


Rich Hampel wrote:
I also gotta jump into this as these Perry designs have IMHO sufficient
reserve stern buoyancy due to their quite large 'bustles' .... If you
compare to a Collin Archer type narrow stern hull then I might agree
but not a Perry design 'double ender'.
Nowithstanding that more Perry (full and long keel) design have had
probably the most circumnavigations than any other design house - has
to say something.


IMHO there are a couple of factors in play here. They are capable boats,
but they are also highly favored by well-publicized passagemakers... and
style counts for a LOT. The fact that the Seven Seas group has so many
vocal advocates of these types means that they'll get picked up by a lot
of people with the same goal... who then become vocal advocates... etc
etc. It's sort of like the British Sports Car cabal (I don't mean to
imply that these boats are anywhere near as evil as say a TR-2, just
that popularity can be self-perpetuating regardless of practicality).

All that aside, one of my favorite boats is Robert Perry's Nordic 40.



.... They also broke out the champagne any time they had a 100-mile
24 hr run.



Well, I am of the opinion that sailboats stink as transport
devices...unless you have nothing resembling a schedule, at which
point they are the best way to travel anywhere there's seven feet of
water.


heh heh my goal was four feet of water, but then in the Southeast US
that's still asking a lot.

I agree about a schedule. It's folly to try and push route and course
decisions, especially when weather is a question, for the sake of
keeping a timetable. But people cling to it... in a lot of cases it's
because of valued shoreside connections like family who are under
pressures of their own.


... If my (to be hoped for) cruising life contains anything more
pressing than "get to typhoon hole in four months" as a Post-It on the
nav station, I will have not achieved my goals in life. So bring on
the North Sea sailing barges G...ok, maybe not THAT bulletproof....


We were looking more for a given range of cubic & displacement,
rather than an LOA range. And what's wrong with complex mechanical aids?
A windlass and a self-tailing winch are both *great* ways to handle
strains than muscle alone will not.... faster and with more control than
a handy-billy.



I don't consider those complex as I could devise the same mech.
advantage with a strong point and a series of blocks and falls.


That's a handy-billy. Cumbersome & slow. Very cost effective though, as
long as an OSHA rep isn't watching.

One of the old cruising books I recently gave away had a whole chapter
devoted to clearing an anchor that was snagged on a big-ass rock
somewhere in a little Caribbean anchorage. An ex Royal Navy captain,
cruising into the same anchorage, helped the author clear it which took
all day and three handy-billys rigged at different points. But they got
a multi-ton rock clear (at one point they swamped a dinghy, which is
part of why it took so long) and the Royal Navy man said "Seamanship is
simply the art of moving impossibly heavy objects." A good point.

Having worked with professional industrial riggers moving machinery
weighing tens of tons through piping mazes, I've seen what you can do
with a couple of block-and-tackle arrangements.... but ratcheting chain
hoists are a lot better... faster, more reliable, and basically safer.
So are self-tailing winches IMHO... and the maintenance + expense hit is
not very large. In other words it appears to me a very worthwhile trade-off.

Now, we can discuss refrigeration... there's a question with many
angles... to me it appears worth it, but there are certainly a lot of
reasons against it. The costs are higher and the benefits slimmer.



...I think in some ways a
40 foot sloop is harder for a couple to handle than a 45 foot ketch,
but both are borderline unless you are quite fit. Better, I think, to
learn to live and sail with the size of boat you can manage, which may
be quite different boats at various life points.


I think the rig question is metastacizing into another sub-thread. Will
meander over there next coffee break

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best cruiser... ketches
 

(Bob Whitaker) asked:
P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs?


"vs" as in racing? No question, the sloop is better hands down. That's
why the other rigs get a rating bonus... for a while back in the 1950s
the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.


Frank Maier wrote:
Well, you've perhaps already guessed my response. grin

Frank's Rig Rant
aka My Opinion and Welcome to It

KETCHES

I have a coupla years of ownership of, and a decent amount of offshore miles
on, ketches (the one I owned and, later, my father-in-law's). Like many of
the other boat types I've spurned in this thread, I find them lovely to look
at, elegant in repose, nautical in presentation, and pretty much a slow
pain-in-the-ass as a sailboat on all but a couple of points of sail. Allow
me to rant against ketches for a bit.

No no, stop.... oops, too late ;)


Their defenders claim many advantages to this rig: two masts for redundancy
in case of a dismasting; split sailplan gives easier sail handling; multiple
masts and the various types of sails they support allow unparalleled ability
to match your canvas to conditions; ...have I forgotten anything?

Better balance on different points of sail? That might be included in
matching canvas to conditions. How about a lower sailplan causing less
heeling moment, and less stress on the hull?



So, my response is:

Split sail plans make sail handling easier. Sure, in 1904, when some poor
sucker had to go below, carry up a heavy, wet canvas sail, hank it on, then
haul it up the wooden mast with a hemp rope using primitive types of
mechanical advantage. But this is 2004. Who nowadays does not have a roller
furling jib? Hell! Even some racers have 'em. You no longer hafta change
headsails for every 5 knots of wind. And as for difficulties in hauling
halyards... if you're experiencing exasperation, buy bigger Barients. I see
lots of traditional cruisers with POWERED winches. Come on, this is not a
realistic factor. In my experience, split sailplans simply add to your
workload.

It also adds to the maintenance workload, and rigging does not last
forever. When you have to replace extra line, not to mention standing
rigging, the bill will be substantial.

... Not that big a deal in mild conditions; but we all seem to love to
talk about "heavy weather" and 'big seas." Me, I'm lazy. I want my life to
be easy in easy conditions and I *need* my life to be easy in complicated
conditions. When a squall comes up, the sloop reels in a couple reefs on the
main with his single-line reefing, rolls in the jib some, and he's ready. Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Agreed definitely. One of the most fun boats I've sailed, 'fun' for all
the wrong reasons, was a 40-ish foot steel ketch owned by the Great
Lakes Naval Training Center Sailing Club. It had been donated long ago,
and was kind of tired but well preserved under three inches of gray
paint. The Navy in it's wisdom had welded pad eyes at many odd places
about the deck, which came in handy when trying out different sail
combinations. That boat had been gutted, no cabin whatever, just a big
steel box. It also had a sail inventory that God would envy, there were
at least twenty five BIG bags and dozens of small ones... although to be
fair some of the small ones were the clubs racing-dinghy sails, which
often got used as mizzens & mizzen staysails.

It was a fun boat to sail on the cold & often rough waters of Lake
Michigan. It was also a very wet boat... it didn't lift much to choppy
waves and would throw trainloads of water over the crew. But we had a
great time experimenting mizzen staysails and tallboys and spinnakers
and watersails and huge ballooners sheeted to the mizzen boom etc etc.

Does everyone see why I say it "was a fun boat for all the wrong
reasons?" Even with a fully outfitted cabin, it would be a poor cruising
boat (which probably explains why it was donated to the Navy).

BTW this boat was rumored to have once belonged to Humphrey Bogart.


... (great material regretfully snipped for brevity)...
For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

And he is also notorious for asking other sailors to give him a tow ;)

Aside from that petty sniping "Iolare" is an awesome boat... I'm just
not dedicated enough to own such masterpiece.



CUTTERS

My simplest response is that I don't see any realistic benefit to a cutter
over a sloop, just expensive, unnecessary complications. People talk about
"balancing the rig" and all that kinda mystical sail trim stuff; but IMO if
you have a well designed sloop (and I grant that that's a measurable "if"),
you can balance just as easily. No, make that *easier* 'cause you only have
two sails to deal with rather than three.

If you're talking about cutters compared to sloops, then sure... but I'd
say that a ketch is (and some but not all yawls are) easier to balance.
You can move the center of effort much further forward or aft, and the
sheeting vectors don't yank the boat around as unpredictably. Yawls are
not as good because while they can move the CE well aft, they don't
benefit as much the other way (moving the CE forward) by furling the
mizzen, since so many yawls are already sloops with an added mizzen anyway.


With regard to rig redundancy, which Frank mentioned but in another
context... many people talk about how rigs with more standing rigging
are more secure. This ignores the basic engineering fact that each stay
puts a compression load on the mast. More stays equal more compression.
If designed by a capable engineer, more stays *can* be stronger but it
ain't necessarily so.

They also equal more places where bits of metal are bolted to the hull
and need periodic maintenance, and more potential failure points.

OK, I've had it for intelligent discussion... can I call somebody names
now? C'mere jax jax jax, I got a cookie for ya

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best cruiser... ketches
 

the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.

the mizzen sail on a yawl is an easy, effective way to balance a boat's sails.
This can be more important on a larger boat with a tiller for steering.

Best cruiser... ketches
 

the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.


JAXAshby wrote:
the mizzen sail on a yawl is an easy, effective way to balance a boat's sails.
This can be more important on a larger boat with a tiller for steering.

That's *certainly* true... many's the time I have sailed large sloops
with tillers, wishing I had a way to set more sail area aft so that the
boat would have *more* weather helm...

DSK

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Why the hell do you think people buy weather suits and epirb's?

they buy weather suits because they think they are most likely to die at sea if
they don't. These people buy ANYthing with the label "safety" mentioned in its
advertising.

Way too many people buy EPIRBs because they *know* they are not up to a trip
but figure by punching the button a set of coasties will come out and save
their sorry butts. These people often say "it's the coastie's job" to rescue
them, and the coastie's loss of life is nothing because the coastie volunteered
for the job and besides the coastie doesn't hold down a desk job. Indeed, the
coastie often didn't even go to college. Those people place no value on life
anyway.

wally, NO EPRIB for you. Let Darwin improve the gene pool.

Flame War here?
 

"Keith" wrote:
C'mon folks, let's not let Jax turn this into wrecked.botes. I blocked him
long ago, so I never even see his posts unless someone responds. Let's not
destroy this NG too.

The best advice is always, "Don't feed the trolls." I admit that I've
sometimes responded to a Jax post because he's just soooo clueless and
sometimes I'm in a cruel mood.

Eventually he'll drop out of this particular manic phase and hit his
depressive phase and we'll be rid of him for a while again.

Frank

Flame War here?
 

frank, I know you won't understand this, but I am posting it anyway so that
other people can laugh at you.

you see, frank, when someone is REALLY dumb they are too dumb to even begin to
realize they are dumb. most usually these really dumb ones -- such as yourself
-- just go right on claimig they personally knew everything it was possible to
know by the time they got out of 6th grade the second time.

got you have gainful employment, frank. wouldn't want you to be a drain on your
country's welfare system.

you may continue to babble, frank.


The best advice is always, "Don't feed the trolls." I admit that I've
sometimes responded to a Jax post because he's just soooo clueless and
sometimes I'm in a cruel mood.

Eventually he'll drop out of this particular manic phase and hit his
depressive phase and we'll be rid of him for a while again.

Frank

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:42:33 -0500, rhys wrote:

I agree entirely, but I don't see it necessarily as a positive
development for the lifestyle of world cruising.

========================================

You're right but the world cruising market is very small. It can be a
lot of fun to think about sailing to a small island in the middle of
no where, but the best way to actually get there is still on a 727.
It's cheaper, faster and you get a lot more time to enjoy the island.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 23 Mar 2004 12:35:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

===========================================

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

What did you use to remove the deck stains?

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

I do not own a Bristol 27, though I do know someone who crossed the North
Atlantic twice in such. he also sailed in the boat out the St Lawrence down to
the Caribbean and back before his first crossing. He also set sail for the
Maritimes 1,200 miles away in a December snow storm.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

===========================================

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

What did you use to remove the deck stains?

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Wayne, I personally met a man who got caught solo quite east of Cape Hatterras
when a huricane unexpectedly turned way north. He rode the storm out (no winds
above 75 knots he said) rather than jump into the water to be rescued by the CG
who came out to retrieve him. He said he felt safer on the boat than getting
into the water.

I also talked with a guy (he had a boat for sale I thought I might be
interested in) who traveled a day and half to approach a port from which the CG
was *screaming* (his word) at him to NOT enter just because the winds got up to
40 knots and his "wife got scared". The boat the guy owned is considered and
extremely seaworthy boat and was nearly 40 feet long.

I stand by my statement that most people are terrified of the water

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

Best cruiser... ketches
 

Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop. And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

Sheldon


That's *certainly* true... many's the time I have sailed large sloops
with tillers, wishing I had a way to set more sail area aft so that the
boat would have *more* weather helm...

DSK


--
Sheldon Haynie
Texas Instruments
50 Phillipe Cote
Manchester, NH 03101
603 222 8652

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Best cruiser... ketches
 

Should I have put a smiley on that last post?
Sheldon Haynie wrote:
Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop.

Maybe it depends on how you define "properly designed." Some of the
yawls I've sailed in company with were old low-aspect sloops with the
boom docked and a mizzen stuck in place. Most of those are gone now.
OTOH we have a dock neighbor with a Seafarer 34, originally a yawl, but
now sailed as a sloop, and the owner reports that it handles the same
and that they always dropped the mizzen anyway when beating.

In some of the old advertising brochures, such as the Allieds or the
Cape Dories, you can see the sailplans for the yawl version right next
to the sloop version... is the mast in the same spot?

IIRC the Bermuda 40 was never offered as a sloop?


... And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

Agreed. One more advantage of a centerboard. Plus you can get it up out
of the way going downwind.


You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

I kind of like having the mizzen mast right where it is handy. It makes
a nice secure hand hold and a great mounting point for radar. It does
get in the way of the solar panel arch though ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:12:38 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


You're right but the world cruising market is very small. It can be a
lot of fun to think about sailing to a small island in the middle of
no where, but the best way to actually get there is still on a 727.
It's cheaper, faster and you get a lot more time to enjoy the island.

It's the fastest way. Is it the best way? Hmmm...(looks up to see
beautiful wife in the V-berth and condensation forming on a pitcher of
cold daiquiris. Cue the sound of fish leaping in placid lagoon)....I
don't think so

R.