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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
In a thread seriously adrift from its original discussion, Wilbur
postulated: If a motor vessel is drifting with its motor not running is it "Underway" or "Making Way" and is it still a vessel propelled by machenery? Sorry, but the correct term is "under way, not making way." If the motors are not running and it is not anchored then the vessel is said to be "adrift." (end Wilbur) If the phrase in quotes was meant to mean it was under way, but not making way, I agree. As I understood the "commentary" during our time in tutelage for our USCG OUPVs, "under way" meant that you were moving, however that might have been. "Making way" meant that you were being propelled, however that may have been (not carried, as in current). And, "Not Under Command" meant not that there wasn't someone at the helm, or in charge, but that the vessel's direction could not be controlled with some steering device. Thus, during our steering failure, I advised the helm of the incoming freighter on my way out of Charleston, last summer, that while under way, I was not under command, but would endeavour to remove our vessel from his path (which I did by application of (immobile) rudder position, throttle and gearshift to take advantage of currents and winds at the time). The helm thanked us for a timely repositioning and went on in. Anchored and aground were two different situations, and from all the time spent on the subject in the "commentary" I assume that being aground is a very common occurrence for International traffic. I'm inferring that great level of discussion to be a product of anchoring not being subject to release as easily (or unintentionally, perhaps a better way to put it) as floating off (after which one would no longer be "aground" - but could be NUC, and under way), thus posing a potential risk to navigation. I'm sure our resident legal jurisprudent master will expand on and elucidate the commentary on such a situation. For ourselves, being at anchor and aground simultaneously, such as was the case in St. Michael's, MD immediately prior to Pres. Bush the present's commentary on the rockfish sporting circumstances of the area, we've found, is a reasonably secure way to insure that we won't represent a drifting hazard to other craft :{)) nor, as was definitely of issue at the time, a security risk to the President (at least, based on the oppressive Secret Service presence preventing my kedging off when we wanted to leave at high tide). L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ... In a thread seriously adrift from its original discussion, Wilbur postulated: If a motor vessel is drifting with its motor not running is it "Underway" or "Making Way" and is it still a vessel propelled by machenery? Sorry, Skippy, but you need to re-tune your filters so you won't be so chronically confused. I did not write the above but I did write the rebuttal you copied and pasted below. Wilbur Hubbard Sorry, but the correct term is "under way, not making way." If the motors are not running and it is not anchored then the vessel is said to be "adrift." (end Wilbur) If the phrase in quotes was meant to mean it was under way, but not making way, I agree. As I understood the "commentary" during our time in tutelage for our USCG OUPVs, "under way" meant that you were moving, however that might have been. "Making way" meant that you were being propelled, however that may have been (not carried, as in current). And, "Not Under Command" meant not that there wasn't someone at the helm, or in charge, but that the vessel's direction could not be controlled with some steering device. Thus, during our steering failure, I advised the helm of the incoming freighter on my way out of Charleston, last summer, that while under way, I was not under command, but would endeavour to remove our vessel from his path (which I did by application of (immobile) rudder position, throttle and gearshift to take advantage of currents and winds at the time). The helm thanked us for a timely repositioning and went on in. Anchored and aground were two different situations, and from all the time spent on the subject in the "commentary" I assume that being aground is a very common occurrence for International traffic. I'm inferring that great level of discussion to be a product of anchoring not being subject to release as easily (or unintentionally, perhaps a better way to put it) as floating off (after which one would no longer be "aground" - but could be NUC, and under way), thus posing a potential risk to navigation. I'm sure our resident legal jurisprudent master will expand on and elucidate the commentary on such a situation. For ourselves, being at anchor and aground simultaneously, such as was the case in St. Michael's, MD immediately prior to Pres. Bush the present's commentary on the rockfish sporting circumstances of the area, we've found, is a reasonably secure way to insure that we won't represent a drifting hazard to other craft :{)) nor, as was definitely of issue at the time, a security risk to the President (at least, based on the oppressive Secret Service presence preventing my kedging off when we wanted to leave at high tide). L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 21, 4:36 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ... In a thread seriously adrift from its original discussion, Wilbur postulated: If a motor vessel is drifting with its motor not running is it "Underway" or "Making Way" and is it still a vessel propelled by machenery? Sorry, Skippy, but you need to re-tune your filters so you won't be so chronically confused. I did not write the above but I did write the rebuttal you copied and pasted below. Wilbur Hubbard In a thread seriously adrift from its original discussion, Wilbur postulated: If a motor vessel is drifting with its motor not running is it "Underway" or "Making Way" and is it still a vessel propelled by machenery? Sorry, but the correct term is "under way, not making way." If the motors are not running and it is not anchored then the vessel is said to be "adrift." (end Wilbur) Sorry, Wilbur, but you need to review the way usenet attributes stuff. Nowhere did you see anything like On Apr 21, 4:36 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Or, even like: "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message in my original. However, you either intentionally or stupidly overlooked, ignored, or simply missed, in your haste to discredit me, *Sorry, but the correct term is "under way, not making way." If the motors are not running and it is not anchored then the vessel is said to be "adrift." (end Wilbur)* (emphasis added) Any cretin would have understood that, without a leading attribution, the parts with the carats was someone else speaking, and, given my lead-in, that the part which had "(end Wilbur)" under it referred to *your* part of a snipped posting. And, furthermore, you misattributed your rebuttal, citing the entire posting I'd shown with the prior poster, remaining nameless, and your rejoinder. Or, perhaps, it was you in both cases?? And, here, I was looking forward to your erudition on all these terms. My bad. L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 21, 4:36 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: some stuff, but.. PS and you even missed the opportunity to upbraid me for my being aground, one I brought to you on a silver platter. What is this world coming to, I ask you??? L8R Skip |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 21, 4:36 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: some stuff, but.. PS and you even missed the opportunity to upbraid me for my being aground, one I brought to you on a silver platter. What is this world coming to, I ask you??? L8R Skip |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ... Sorry, Wilbur, but you need to review the way usenet attributes stuff. Nowhere did you see anything like On Apr 21, 4:36 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: But I DID see the following which is a copy and paste from your OP: "In a thread seriously adrift from its original discussion, Wilbur postulated: " If a motor vessel is drifting with its motor not running is it "Underway" or "Making Way" and is it still a vessel propelled by machenery?" So, get a clue! Wilbur Hubbard |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ... However, you either intentionally or stupidly overlooked, ignored, or simply missed, in your haste to discredit me, First off, perhaps you should learn how to snip that which is not germaine to the discussion at hand. Your statement above is just not so. Look at your OP and you will see where in YOUR haste to make some lame point you claimed I wrote that which was written by another. Any cretin would have understood that, without a leading attribution, the parts with the carats was someone else speaking, and, given my lead-in, that the part which had "(end Wilbur)" under it referred to *your* part of a snipped posting. Negative. Your newsreader is doing a **** poor job of inserting carets. When they should be doubled up they are not. Get something that works or learn to work what you have, please. And, furthermore, you misattributed your rebuttal, citing the entire posting I'd shown with the prior poster, remaining nameless, and your rejoinder. Or, perhaps, it was you in both cases?? Negative again! Just as is the case in this post your words are carated and mine are not. And, here, I was looking forward to your erudition on all these terms. My bad. What terms? Wilbur Hubbard |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ... PS and you even missed the opportunity to upbraid me for my being aground, one I brought to you on a silver platter. What is this world coming to, I ask you??? You're aground so often that it's hardly noteworthy! I did make a couple of snide comments about your propensity towards being aground is posts elsewhere in this group or maybe in alt.sailing.asa and I even referred you your Flying Pig as Stuck Pig but I guess you had those kill filed. Wilbur Hubbard |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 21, 5:18 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
Skip, Having sat through the classes and hit the books more recently than anyone else here (as far as I know) what's your take on the great engine-running-but-not-in-gear controversy? -- Roger Long Hi, Roger, My understanding is that without the equipment propelling the vessel, you can have all manner of machinery running and either not be making way or, perhaps, even/also, not under way. If you're not driving the propulsion equipment, you're not a power vessel. However, in an admiralty court, I suspect that if you had the means to engage propulsion at an instant, but did not, you might have borne more fault than if you were operating without any propulsion equipment available at a touch. I don't consider touching an ignition switch without any of the normal startup procedures being followed as "available at a touch" but I think a reasonable man would conclude that if you've gone through all the usual startup procedures and are otherwise operating the power source, you could, safely, at an instant, engage propulsion. If doing so would have avoided a collision, I'd expect a responsibility to be assigned if it were not exercised. L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Roger Long" wrote in message
... Skip, Having sat through the classes and hit the books more recently than anyone else here (as far as I know) what's your take on the great engine-running-but-not-in-gear controversy? -- Roger Long Well, I was checking my stuffing box because it had recently been adjusted. I moved all the crap out of the laz to get to the access hatch, wedged myself in there, flashlight in hand, had to crouch significantly to see and was nicely wedged in. So, I take a look and it's not leaking and I can put my hand on it, so the temp is right. Cool, so I climb out after some struggling, put all the crap back in, close and lock the laz, and *then* I realize that I didn't have the engine engaged. Sigh.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. Nope... not good enough. It would not be clear to the other boat. They would still likely assume you're engine is engaged. The rules are fairly clear. If you're being "propelled" by an engine, then you're a powerboat. If you're not, you're not. But, the issue is one of potential confusion, which you're obligated to mitigate. What you describe is going to make the situation worse not better. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:01:45 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. Is there some U.S. version of the regulations as the international regulations I carry state: (b) The term power-driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery. (c) The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used. No where does it discuss the engine being in gear, or not. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply) |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 21, 1:46*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: You're aground so often that it's hardly noteworthy! Wilbur Hubbard Oh my god ! What the **** ! ! ! Willbur Hubbard just got schooled by SKIP! You go SKip ! Bob |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. Convenient to what? CAUSE a collision? |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:48:38 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote: Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. Convenient to what? CAUSE a collision? I asked in a different post if y'all were referring to some U.S. edition of the so called Col Rebs., as the international version I have refers only to : (b) The term power-driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery. (c) The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used. No where does it discuss the engine being in gear, or not. If there is a U.S. version that uses different terms, or meanings, is different from the normally internationally used version I should like to be aware of it. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply) |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 22, 4:01*am, wrote:
A baseball bat is not a "deadly weapon" until you swing it at someone's head. This is the problem using analogies as support in an argument. They usually don’t work cause some one like me can use another analogy to refute the Baseball analogy. For example, Just because I have a screw diver and a crescent wrench in my pocket doesn’t mean I am a burglar yet..... a cop can stop me and arrest my ass for “possession of burglar tools.” BTW this happened to me when I was 18 yo after working on a friends boat. I stuck the screwdriver and crescent wrench in my hip pocket walked home at 9 PM and got stopped by a cop. The cop took me to the station and was going to charge me with “possession of burglar tools.” Who is right? Just because my engine is running and NOT engaged does that mean im NOT propelled by machinery? Does that mean when a motor vessel shuts down the engines that makes it NOT a motor vessel? Man up and be a true conservative. I am Democrat and a true conservative. When my motor is running for any reason on my sailboat I consider my self propelled by machinery, act accordingly, and don’t try to chicken **** the rules. BOB |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:08 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: No. The standard COLREGS book has the International rules on one page and the corresponding Inland rule on the facing page. Differences are sometimes noted as well. There are very few differences but some are quite important. Nothing about engine engagement or disengagement though. Big ships all have direct drive engines. If the engine in running the prop is turning. You stop it and restart it turning the other way for reverse. Casady |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Roger Long" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote Nope... not good enough. It would not be clear to the other boat. They would still likely assume you're engine is engaged. The rules are fairly clear. If you're being "propelled" by an engine, then you're a powerboat. If you're not, you're not. But, the issue is one of potential confusion, which you're obligated to mitigate. What you describe is going to make the situation worse not better. I believe there is also a rule, or at least an interpretation, that you may not resolve a crossing situation that switches you from being the burdened to the stand-on-vessel. The status is determined at the time that the situation becomes one that requires application of the rules to resolve. -- Roger Long There is... just don't have it at the tip of my finger... There's one about overtaking... that you have to be well-clear. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:01:45 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. Is there some U.S. version of the regulations as the international regulations I carry state: (b) The term power-driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery. (c) The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used. No where does it discuss the engine being in gear, or not. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply) "propelled by machinery" -- if it's not being used to propel the boat, it's not a powerboat according to the rules. Look at the limiting case. The engine is running, but there's no tranny (or it's broken). It's running, but nothing is happening. Thus, in their eyes, "being used" means propelling the boat not just running. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Bob" wrote in message
... On Apr 22, 4:01 am, wrote: A baseball bat is not a "deadly weapon" until you swing it at someone's head. This is the problem using analogies as support in an argument. They usually don’t work cause some one like me can use another analogy to refute the Baseball analogy. For example, Just because I have a screw diver and a crescent wrench in my pocket doesn’t mean I am a burglar yet..... a cop can stop me and arrest my ass for “possession of burglar tools.” BTW this happened to me when I was 18 yo after working on a friends boat. I stuck the screwdriver and crescent wrench in my hip pocket walked home at 9 PM and got stopped by a cop. The cop took me to the station and was going to charge me with “possession of burglar tools.” Who is right? Just because my engine is running and NOT engaged does that mean im NOT propelled by machinery? Does that mean when a motor vessel shuts down the engines that makes it NOT a motor vessel? Man up and be a true conservative. I am Democrat and a true conservative. When my motor is running for any reason on my sailboat I consider my self propelled by machinery, act accordingly, and don’t try to chicken **** the rules. BOB I suppose if the cops actually did arrest you, they would have to prove the case. I know a guy who has "guilty" tattooed on the back of his head ear-level, did it when he was young, had hair for a while, now doesn't. That still doesn't prove anything. :-) I agree with you though... I consider my boat to be a powerboat if my engine is on, even though technically I'm not. It's not worth the hassle of trying to prove it in court. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m... Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. Convenient to what? CAUSE a collision? Convient for Wayne's powerboat. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 22, 9:04*am, (Richard Casady)
wrote: On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:08 -0400, "Roger Long" Big ships all have direct drive engines. If the engine in running the prop is turning. You stop it and restart it turning the other way for reverse. Casady Hello Casady: Well, what can I say. Im going to cosider anything big as 500GRT. What are some the engines Ive seen on these boats. Of course there are the old air start reverse diesels ya might be thinking about. If your going forward and want to go revers then ya got to kill the engine and restate the engine in reverse. makes for interesting manouvering at the dock. Lets try steam as in the SS Ocean Phonenix: boil water and run steam through turbin. Lots of ways to boil water. HOw about EMD...... (Electric Motor Division) There, like the railroad locomotives, the engine runs a generator that then supplies electiricty to an electric motor which then pushes the boat. Just manage the electric motor. NOw there are a couple ways to do this all. 1) Z drives can swivel 360 degress so no need for a marine grear (transmission) 2) varriable pitch props. There ya can just increase/decreas shaft turns and fiddle with pitch contorll. So me thinks there are a lot of options you may not have considered. But thats okay, ship propullsion systems is an interesting subject changing annually. I think ya best stay talking about ur recreational yachts and leave the big stuff to thoese who have actually been on one. bob |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:58:25 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote: On Apr 22, 9:04*am, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:08 -0400, "Roger Long" Big ships all have direct drive engines. If the engine in running the prop is turning. You stop it and restart it turning the other way for reverse. Casady Hello Casady: Well, what can I say. Im going to cosider anything big as 500GRT. They make 500 ton dump trucks. Strip mining equipment. A big size of truck but very small for a ship. Panamax boxboats are big. There is a freighter with a 500 ton crane. Maybe for loading those big trucks. Or locomotives. What are some the engines Ive seen on these boats. Of course there are the old air start reverse diesels ya might be thinking about. If your going forward and want to go revers then ya got to kill the engine and restate the engine in reverse. makes for interesting manouvering at the dock. That's all there is on really large ships. All modern cargo ships with any size to them are single shaft diesel with direct drivel. They haven't built anything else in years. Lets try steam as in the SS Ocean Phonenix: boil water and run steam through turbin. Lots of ways to boil water. They quit building steam ships some time ago. They use quite a bit more fuel than diesel, and steam ships cost significantly more to run. HOw about EMD...... (Electric Motor Division) There, like the railroad locomotives, the engine runs a generator that then supplies electiricty to an electric motor which then pushes the boat. Just manage the electric motor. Less efficient than direct drive. Checked the price of oil lately? NOw there are a couple ways to do this all. 1) Z drives can swivel 360 degress so no need for a marine grear (transmission) 2) varriable pitch props. There ya can just increase/decreas shaft turns and fiddle with pitch contorll. A small proportion of the tonnage out there. Cargo ships don't use them. I have heard of variable pitch props on some US warships, but, except aircraft carriers, warships aren't all that big. Some tugs have odd ball propulsion systems Some cruise ships have diesel electric, and at least one has Z-drives. So me thinks there are a lot of options you may not have considered. But thats okay, ship propullsion systems is an interesting subject changing annually. I think ya best stay talking about ur recreational yachts and leave the big stuff to thoese who have actually been on one. That's seems an overreaction to posting one small fact. Casady |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
On Apr 22, 2:47*pm, otnmbrd wrote:
: There are still a number of ships out there using steam. The problems with direct drive diesels and starting, though not gone, are much more rare. Diesel electric is out there, especially for those using Azipod (different than Z-drive) There are many cargo ships using "variable pitch" My Dear Mr. Casady: I see that you are a mariner and most likely a past Seaman. Steam is not all that obscure. dont forget the the nuc navy is all steam. As far as variable pitched prop....... the fishing industry uses VP on some of the factory trawlers and long liners. Open any National Fisherman and there will be a few ads for VP props. Thank you for varifying the obvious for thoes less knowledgable. Bob |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:47:50 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote: On Apr 22, 2:47*pm, otnmbrd wrote: : There are still a number of ships out there using steam. The problems with direct drive diesels and starting, though not gone, are much more rare. Diesel electric is out there, especially for those using Azipod (different than Z-drive) There are many cargo ships using "variable pitch" My Dear Mr. Casady: I see that you are a mariner and most likely a past Seaman. Steam is not all that obscure. dont forget the the nuc navy is all steam. As far as variable pitched prop....... the fishing industry uses VP on some of the factory trawlers and long liners. Open any National Fisherman and there will be a few ads for VP props. Thank you for varifying the obvious for thoes less knowledgable. Since my post was about large cargo ships, I didn't mention VP or steam since neither are used much on tankers and the big freighters. There _is_ a steam ship on Lake Michigan. A car ferry, it has coal fired boilers and piston engines, Fifty years old. The SS Badger it is, and they have a website. |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:39:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:01:45 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up the forestay. Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in neutral to reassert your rights. That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just shift into neutral whenever it was convenient. Is there some U.S. version of the regulations as the international regulations I carry state: (b) The term power-driven vessel means any vessel propelled by machinery. (c) The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used. No where does it discuss the engine being in gear, or not. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply) "propelled by machinery" -- if it's not being used to propel the boat, it's not a powerboat according to the rules. Look at the limiting case. The engine is running, but there's no tranny (or it's broken). It's running, but nothing is happening. Thus, in their eyes, "being used" means propelling the boat not just running. That was my point. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply) |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:04:41 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:04:03 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:08 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: No. The standard COLREGS book has the International rules on one page and the corresponding Inland rule on the facing page. Differences are sometimes noted as well. There are very few differences but some are quite important. Nothing about engine engagement or disengagement though. Big ships all have direct drive engines. If the engine in running the prop is turning. You stop it and restart it turning the other way for reverse. Casady Depends on what you mean by "big ships" A LCC will have a direct drive but a big, to me, oil field supply boat, say, 3,000 H.P. had a normal forward/reverse gear box. Boxboats and tankers are nearly all direct drive. A gearbox would likely cost as much as the engine. Hundred ton German torpedo boats had direct drive. They carried enough compressed air for just one start. The compressor was on the dock. Running out off air because of a lot of manuvering can cause delay while the air tanks are refilled and there are other other worse things that can happen. Casady |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
Bob wrote in
: On Apr 22, 2:47*pm, otnmbrd wrote: : There are still a number of ships out there using steam. The problems with direct drive diesels and starting, though not gone, are much more rare. Diesel electric is out there, especially for those using Azipod (different than Z-drive) There are many cargo ships using "variable pitch" My Dear Mr. Casady: I see that you are a mariner and most likely a past Seaman. Steam is not all that obscure. dont forget the the nuc navy is all steam. As far as variable pitched prop....... the fishing industry uses VP on some of the factory trawlers and long liners. Open any National Fisherman and there will be a few ads for VP props. Thank you for varifying the obvious for thoes less knowledgable. Bob My name is not Casady. Vp is not the norm but not uncommon on large ships. otn |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:27:57 -0400, wrote: Yes. If you were other than the novice you run around accusing others of being, you would know that a 36 foot sailboat with engine off, and a 36 powerboat with the motor off are equals in the pecking order. Not necessarily, it depends why the powerboat engine is off. If the engine is off because it is broken, then the powerboat is NUC, Not Under Command, and should be displaying appropriate signals. If the powerboat is NUC, the sailboat becomes the giveway vessel (assuming it is underway and making way). Huh? If the PB's engine's off, then how could it be anything but NUC unless it's anchored or docked? It has no other means of propulsion. You can't even steer if you don't have engine. Do you like to turn off your engine and coast? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:11:44 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: Huh? If the PB's engine's off, then how could it be anything but NUC unless it's anchored or docked? It has no other means of propulsion. You can't even steer if you don't have engine. Do you like to turn off your engine and coast? Many people drift fish with the engine off. You are not NUC unless you are disabled. |
Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
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