Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:01:45 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

As soon as you put the
engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists the day shape cone up
the
forestay.

Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail
along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation
arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in
neutral to reassert your rights.

That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine
is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just
shift into neutral whenever it was convenient.


Is there some U.S. version of the regulations as the international
regulations I carry state:

(b) The term power-driven vessel means any vessel propelled by
machinery.

(c) The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

No where does it discuss the engine being in gear, or not.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)


"propelled by machinery" -- if it's not being used to propel the boat, it's
not a powerboat according to the rules. Look at the limiting case. The
engine is running, but there's no tranny (or it's broken). It's running, but
nothing is happening. Thus, in their eyes, "being used" means propelling the
boat not just running.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Apr 22, 4:01 am, wrote:

A baseball bat is not a "deadly weapon" until you swing it at someone's
head.


This is the problem using analogies as support in an argument. They
usually don’t work cause some one like me can use another analogy to
refute the Baseball analogy. For example,

Just because I have a screw diver and a crescent wrench in my pocket
doesn’t mean I am a burglar yet..... a cop can stop me and arrest my
ass for “possession of burglar tools.” BTW this happened to me when I
was 18 yo after working on a friends boat. I stuck the screwdriver and
crescent wrench in my hip pocket walked home at 9 PM and got stopped
by a cop. The cop took me to the station and was going to charge me
with “possession of burglar tools.” Who is right?

Just because my engine is running and NOT engaged does that mean im
NOT propelled by machinery? Does that mean when a motor vessel shuts
down the engines that makes it NOT a motor vessel?

Man up and be a true conservative. I am Democrat and a true
conservative. When my motor is running for any reason on my sailboat I
consider my self propelled by machinery, act accordingly, and don’t
try to chicken **** the rules.
BOB


I suppose if the cops actually did arrest you, they would have to prove the
case. I know a guy who has "guilty" tattooed on the back of his head
ear-level, did it when he was young, had hair for a while, now doesn't. That
still doesn't prove anything. :-)

I agree with you though... I consider my boat to be a powerboat if my engine
is on, even though technically I'm not. It's not worth the hassle of trying
to prove it in court.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
m...
Wayne.B wrote:

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:28:27 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:


As soon as you put the engine in gear, you uniformed crew smartly hoists
the day shape cone up the forestay.


Carrying all of this to its silly extreme, you now blithely motorsail
along with your cone up until some awkward right-of-way situation
arises, at which point you strike your cone and put your engine in
neutral to reassert your rights.

That's why the rules say that you become a powerboat when your engine
is on, not just when your engine is in gear. Otherwise you could just
shift into neutral whenever it was convenient.



Convenient to what?

CAUSE a collision?


Convient for Wayne's powerboat. :-)


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
 

On Apr 22, 9:04*am, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:08 -0400, "Roger Long"

Big ships all have direct drive engines. If the engine in running the
prop is turning. You stop it and restart it turning the other way for
reverse.

Casady


Hello Casady:

Well, what can I say. Im going to cosider anything big as 500GRT.
What are some the engines Ive seen on these boats.

Of course there are the old air start reverse diesels ya might be
thinking about. If your going forward and want to go revers then ya
got to kill the engine and restate the engine in reverse. makes for
interesting manouvering at the dock.

Lets try steam as in the SS Ocean Phonenix: boil water and run steam
through turbin. Lots of ways to boil water.

HOw about EMD...... (Electric Motor Division) There, like the railroad
locomotives, the engine runs a generator that then supplies
electiricty to an electric motor which then pushes the boat. Just
manage the electric motor.

NOw there are a couple ways to do this all.

1) Z drives can swivel 360 degress so no need for a marine grear
(transmission)
2) varriable pitch props. There ya can just increase/decreas shaft
turns and fiddle with pitch contorll.

So me thinks there are a lot of options you may not have considered.
But thats okay, ship propullsion systems is an interesting subject
changing annually.

I think ya best stay talking about ur recreational yachts and leave
the big stuff to thoese who have actually been on one.
bob

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:58:25 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

On Apr 22, 9:04*am, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:08 -0400, "Roger Long"

Big ships all have direct drive engines. If the engine in running the
prop is turning. You stop it and restart it turning the other way for
reverse.

Casady


Hello Casady:

Well, what can I say. Im going to cosider anything big as 500GRT.

They make 500 ton dump trucks. Strip mining equipment. A big size of
truck but very small for a ship. Panamax boxboats are big. There is a
freighter with a 500 ton crane. Maybe for loading those big trucks. Or
locomotives.

What are some the engines Ive seen on these boats.

Of course there are the old air start reverse diesels ya might be
thinking about. If your going forward and want to go revers then ya
got to kill the engine and restate the engine in reverse. makes for
interesting manouvering at the dock.
That's all there is on really large ships. All modern cargo ships with
any size to them are single shaft diesel with direct drivel. They
haven't built anything else in years.
Lets try steam as in the SS Ocean Phonenix: boil water and run steam
through turbin. Lots of ways to boil water.
They quit building steam ships some time ago. They use quite a bit
more fuel than diesel, and steam ships cost significantly more to run.
HOw about EMD...... (Electric Motor Division) There, like the railroad
locomotives, the engine runs a generator that then supplies
electiricty to an electric motor which then pushes the boat. Just
manage the electric motor.

Less efficient than direct drive. Checked the price of oil lately?

NOw there are a couple ways to do this all.

1) Z drives can swivel 360 degress so no need for a marine grear
(transmission)
2) varriable pitch props. There ya can just increase/decreas shaft
turns and fiddle with pitch contorll.
A small proportion of the tonnage out there. Cargo ships don't use
them.
I have heard of variable pitch props on some US warships, but, except
aircraft carriers, warships aren't all that big.
Some tugs have odd ball propulsion systems
Some cruise ships have diesel electric, and at least one has Z-drives.

So me thinks there are a lot of options you may not have considered.
But thats okay, ship propullsion systems is an interesting subject
changing annually.

I think ya best stay talking about ur recreational yachts and leave
the big stuff to thoese who have actually been on one.

That's seems an overreaction to posting one small fact.

Casady

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command,revisited
 

On Apr 22, 2:47*pm, otnmbrd wrote:
:

There are still a number of ships out there using steam.
The problems with direct drive diesels and starting, though not gone, are
much more rare.
Diesel electric is out there, especially for those using Azipod (different
than Z-drive)
There are many cargo ships using "variable pitch"


My Dear Mr. Casady:
I see that you are a mariner and most likely a past Seaman.
Steam is not all that obscure. dont forget the the nuc navy is all
steam.
As far as variable pitched prop....... the fishing industry uses VP on
some of the factory trawlers and long liners. Open any National
Fisherman and there will be a few ads for VP props.

Thank you for varifying the obvious for thoes less knowledgable.
Bob

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:27:57 -0400, wrote:

Yes. If you were other than the novice you run around accusing others of being,
you would know that a 36 foot sailboat with engine off, and a 36 powerboat with
the motor off are equals in the pecking order.

Of course there is no difference between a boat under command and one
not under command. Really? All vessels are required to avoid
collisions. If one can manuver and the other cannot, they are not
equal. One is expected to do something, the other is not. You are not
allowed to hit a drifting boat with one under command. There is a day
shape for under way but not under command. Two black balls. Sometimes
called ' Panamanian running lights ' by the merchant sailors.

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:47:50 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

On Apr 22, 2:47*pm, otnmbrd wrote:
:

There are still a number of ships out there using steam.
The problems with direct drive diesels and starting, though not gone, are
much more rare.
Diesel electric is out there, especially for those using Azipod (different
than Z-drive)
There are many cargo ships using "variable pitch"


My Dear Mr. Casady:
I see that you are a mariner and most likely a past Seaman.
Steam is not all that obscure. dont forget the the nuc navy is all
steam.
As far as variable pitched prop....... the fishing industry uses VP on
some of the factory trawlers and long liners. Open any National
Fisherman and there will be a few ads for VP props.

Thank you for varifying the obvious for thoes less knowledgable.

Since my post was about large cargo ships, I didn't mention VP or
steam since neither are used much on tankers and the big freighters.
There _is_ a steam ship on Lake Michigan. A car ferry, it has coal
fired boilers and piston engines, Fifty years old. The SS Badger it
is, and they have a website.

Under Way, Not Making Way, Aground and Not Under Command, revisited
 

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:04:03 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:08 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

No. The standard COLREGS book has the International rules on one page and
the corresponding Inland rule on the facing page. Differences are sometimes
noted as well. There are very few differences but some are quite important.
Nothing about engine engagement or disengagement though.

Big ships all have direct drive engines. If the engine in running the
prop is turning. You stop it and restart it turning the other way for
reverse.

Casady

Depends on what you mean by "big ships" A LCC will have a direct drive
but a big, to me, oil field supply boat, say, 3,000 H.P. had a normal
forward/reverse gear box.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)