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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On May 17 Phantman wrote:
Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs lol! I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre". On Sat, 17 May 08, Jay wrote: I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual. I wasn't quoting directly, I was combining what it stated in two separate paragraphs. Paragraph 1. "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. Water is not normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly" Paragraph 2.."CAUTION Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result". First it says water isn't always discharged, that's normal, then it tells you to not operate your motor "when there is no water coming out of the pilot holes". That looks like a conflict to me. You may be right that they may mean "in gear" or whatever, but it's still ambiguous to say the least. The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole "water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats? I'm not knockin' your motor. Suzuki has a good reputation. But there's something here that makes no sense to me and I'm just trying to understand what it is. I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. I agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are necessarily in error. I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything bizarre about calling them Pilot holes. Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the cooling system? Possibly. But I think you may have missed my point. Probably my fault for not communicating clearly and I hope I haven't muddied the water even more with what I've tried to get across here. Rick |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall"
wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)
On May 17, 6:42*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 17 May 2008 18:31:51 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote: On May 17, 3:02*pm, wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 13:45:22 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote: On May 17, 8:40*am, wrote: Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting..... unless severe damage occurs lol! *I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre". I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual. I think I would call a Suzuki mechanic (not a salesman) and get an explanation that makes sense.. And pin him down if necessary. That owners manual is as ambiguous as any I've heard about. I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. *I agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are necessarily in error. The manual states, "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. *Water is not normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly. *However, cooling system operation can be confirmed as follows: 1---Place the shift selector lever in the NEUTRAL position with the motor idling. 2---Increase and decrease the engine speed five or six times in succession by opening and closing the throttle smoothly and without stopping in any one throttle position. 3---If water is discharged from the pilot water holes under this operating condition, the cooling system is working properly. *If water is not discharged, stop the engine as soon as possible and consult your authorized Suzuki Marine dealer." It then states: *CAUTION *Never OPERATE (perhaps they are referring to having the motor in GEAR, not NEUTRAL as stated above) your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result. *Before setting off, be sure that emergency stop switch operates properly. Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the cooling system? -Jay The purpose of a tell-tale, regardless of what you want to call it, is to be a CONSTANT indicator that the water pump is working. So it makes no difference in this particular Suzuki model, first designed and manufactured in 2006, whether or not the engine is under load (i.e. in gear as opposed to idling in neutral) as to the necessity of the water pump squirting water out of the pilot holes? If the tell tale doesn't always have water coming out of it when the engine is running I would consider that a defect, and a serious one. That is why ALL small outboards have them. If Suzuki has built an engine with a tell tale, pilot hole, or pee-hole that does not emit water under ALL operating conditions then the only answer is that they made a big mistake in their design, and should issue a recall to rectify it. One needs to be careful about something being the "only answer" to any problem. And most would agree that if this motor, which has powered thousands of boats since 2006, had a serious manufacturing defect the boating world would most certainly have heard all about it by now, the recall would have already been in progress and this thread concerning the matter would never have existed. So therefore it's not at all possible that a new design created just 18-24 months ago by Suzuki could have created a motor that is not like ALL other motors and that no mistake at all was made? If that's the way it was intended, I would return the motor for a refund. I'm quite serious. Would you accept an automobile where they told you the oil pressure warning light would only indicate a problem if you pulled over to the side of the road and performed a "procedure" to make it work? I'm not totally disagreeing with your logic; however, in any unusual situation one perhaps should consider that all things, even in the same category (i.e. outboard motors) do not work nor are constructed in exactly the same manner and the analogy between a car's oil pressure and an outboard's cooling system would only be applicable if both motorsd/engines were built exactly the same way and one was talking about exactly the same system within those same motors.. There is no good reason on earth why the cooling water indicator on an outboard should ever stop squirting while the motor is running. *That's a potentially fatal flaw. Or perhaps there is no good reason I. you or several others can think of at this time? Nope. I have this right with no exceptions. And you very well may be but until you have thoroughtly disassembled a DF2.5 Suzuki outboard and/or attained a thorough understanding of how that particular model is constructed and functions and if it is or isn't different than most outboards, then your statement is based upon your long-time valuable experience with outboard motors but NOT THIS ONE so therefore you may or may not "have this right." Not trying to disagree with what you're saying but just keeping an open mind. *I've found that I get used to things being a certain way in other matters and sometimes have difficulty accepting they could be done differently and be just as good, and not necessarily "wrong." *I guess the best way to resolve this issue is perhaps to write American Suzuki Marine, P.O. Box 1100, Brea, CA 92822 and give 'em the what for...lol. Tell you what. *I'll take the boat out soon, putt around the lake and if no water squirts out all the time and the motor seizes up, I'll feed it to Suzuki for lunch. *If I putt around the lake and water doesn't squirt out all the time and nothing overheats and/or seizes up, I guess then I'll know that they didn't screw up and they did design a motor to operate exactly as stated in the manual and that all other fears basesd on other outboard motors are therefore groundless. Does that sound reasonable? Only to a fool. Good luck, anyway. That's all you have on your side. No, that's incorrect. I have a written signed warranty in my hand and an owner's manual that states exactly what I've reproduced here and a cousin who's a great attorney. I think I have far more that luck and would not consider myself a fool. I mean what better way to prove your point about the motor being manufactured defectively than to operate it as per the owner's manual and seize it up? And if it doesn't fail when operating it according to that owner's manual, well....oooops! -Jay |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)
On May 17, 8:13*pm, wrote:
On May 17 Phantman wrote: Except for the part that says it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs lol! *I think Salty said it best ... "Truly bizarre". On Sat, 17 May 08, Jay wrote: I don't recall that statement (...it's still ok when it's not squirting.... unless severe damage occurs...) being in the manual. I wasn't quoting directly, I was combining what it stated in two separate paragraphs. Paragraph 1. "Cooling water is intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. *Water is not normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly" Paragraph 2.."CAUTION *Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result". First it says water isn't always discharged, that's normal, then it tells you to not operate your motor "when there is no water coming out of the pilot holes". That looks like a conflict to me. You may be right that they may mean "in gear" or whatever, but it's still ambiguous to say the least. The "bizarre" part, is, when nothing is being discharged, how are you supposed to KNOW the water pump is working? THAT's what I would ask the mechanic. Surely you're not supposed to go through that whole "water pump check" routine every time it stops discharging if that's supposed to happen intermittantly during normal operation. All I'm saying is that would make no sense. Not that anything is wrong with your water pump at the moment. But if you're getting no pilot hole stream..... how are you supposed to know before the thing overheats? I'm not knockin' your motor. Suzuki has a good reputation. But there's something here that makes no sense to me and I'm just trying to understand what it is. I already did contact a Suzuki mechanic and he confirmed that Suzuki calls them pilot holes, not pee or tell-tale holes and that they serve the same purpose as pee holes and/or tell-tale holes. *I agree that sometimes things appear "bizarre" but sometimes they do simply because some are not aware of them, not because they are necessarily in error. I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything bizarre about calling them Pilot holes. Perhaps there's a difference between having the motor idling in neutral and operating the motor under stress in gear in regards to the functionality and/or creating possible damage in regards to the cooling system? Possibly. But I think you may have missed my point. Probably my fault for not communicating clearly and I hope I haven't muddied the water even more with what I've tried to get across here. Rick Rick, I agree there is some ambiguity in the manual (as in many manuals translated from another language into English) and I'd like to get this cleared up ASAP. I fully understand the logic regarding the need to see that water squirting out of the pilot holes at all times the motor is running and still trying to ascertain why THIS motor, according to it's poorly-written manual, doesn't find that necessary. -Jay |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)
On May 17, 9:04*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
Not knowing anything about OB cooling systems, a couple questions. 1. If the OB has a thermostat, can it be fully closed? 2. With the OB's you are familiar with, can the engine overheat even when the pee hole has a stream? I'm thinking Jay's new OB is designed to discharge all cooling water through the thermostat, and if it's shut, no stream. Electronic controls might make that a good way to manage engine efficiency. *It might also have an overheat shutdown. Though I know OB owners basically worship that peehole stream as the Holy Grail of engine heat control, it may not so important with this small engine. * Yeah, I know, "Paragraph 2.."CAUTION *Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holes or severe damage can result". So it is contradictory. *Might have cribbed that from the manual of a bigger engine. *In any case bad manual writing. --Vic Vic, thanks for a possible alternate explanation. I will ask my Suzuki mechanic about that. And that bit about the "one-size-fits- all" manual, I've run into that before where it seems like they got the pages mixed up between two products and what you read doesn't even apply to one. Thanks. -Jay |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On Sun, 18 May 08, Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
I think that you are interprets the manual incorrectly. Very possible. From your quote I believe it is intended to mean something like: Water does not come out the hole at all speeds, i.e. no water at low engine speed. Right. Low speed would be an "other" speed ("intermittently discharged from the pilot water holes at medium engine speeds. Water is not normally discharged at OTHER speeds) . To check the water pump, put the shift in neutral (so you don't take off and crash into something) and jazz the throttle, i.e., water comes out the holes at the higher RPMS If water doesn't come out the holes call the Dealer. Try it in your bucket and see if that isn't the case, water comes out the holes at higher RPMs. I think we're interpreting the manual the same way except I'm seeing it say "intermittent" at *medium* speeds and no discharge at "other" (lower and/or higher?) speeds. Your explanation may very well be correct though, as well as other explanations posted. But I hope Suzuki has an explanation that's not only less ambiguous but something that works to warn immediately of a failed water pump. I have a 1968 Evinrude (pre tell-tale model) and even that antique gives you an immediate indication, with the amount of exhaust spray, of the status of the water pump. I'm thinking there's bound to be something they've left out of the manual. Rick |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard engine. In fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat. I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out. Muriatic acid will. Wilbur Hubbard |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On Sun, 18 May 2008 14:33:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard engine. In fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat. I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out. Muriatic acid will. Nothing attacks aluminum oxide: saphire or ruby are aluminum oxide.. Not even slightly reactive with muratic acid. Muratic will dissolve carbonates very nicely. Calcium and magnesium is what it is, not aluminum. Casady |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
"Richard Casady" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 18 May 2008 14:33:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message m... On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall" wrote: I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice was available. Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep the piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some diluted mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single cylinder four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the piston at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the innards from corrosion causing moisture. It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy. I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the flush system where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it without the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up a river, so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half mile in water with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still, I periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away on a rope and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing everywhere including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The saltaway disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have never been confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system. Thermostats caked with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal whether it's really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on. This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended. It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals even faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the engine. Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh water is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the engine. And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water and rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a fact, Jack! Wilbur Hubbard Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard engine. In fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat. I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out. Muriatic acid will. Nothing attacks aluminum oxide: saphire or ruby are aluminum oxide.. Not even slightly reactive with muratic acid. Muratic will dissolve carbonates very nicely. Calcium and magnesium is what it is, not aluminum. Casady I stand corrected. Your explanation is logical. But the point is salt crystals cannot remain salt crystals when immersed in a flow of hot fresh or salt water. The so-called salt crystals are not NaCl salts from salt water like these idiots seem to think they are. Wilbur Hubbard |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
Thsanks to all for a variety of explanations regarding the operation
of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard. In summation we know the following: 1--Suzuki calls, what is normally referred to as pee holes and/or tell- tales, pilot holes. 2--The owner's manual is poorly written and appears to be contradictory in regards to the operation of the cooling system. 3--We haven't yet found out whether or not Suzuki has some secret, high-level design wherein their DF2.5 doesn't operate, in regards to the cooling system, like the other 10 billion outboards in the Milky Way galaxy. 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. -Jay |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
"Jay" wrote in message ... Thsanks to all for a variety of explanations regarding the operation of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard. In summation we know the following: 1--Suzuki calls, what is normally referred to as pee holes and/or tell- tales, pilot holes. 2--The owner's manual is poorly written and appears to be contradictory in regards to the operation of the cooling system. 3--We haven't yet found out whether or not Suzuki has some secret, high-level design wherein their DF2.5 doesn't operate, in regards to the cooling system, like the other 10 billion outboards in the Milky Way galaxy. 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. -Jay What puzzles me about all this is the statement you quoted (IIRC) from the instruction book saying that under certain conditions water may not be coming out of the pilot holes when the engine is running, even if all is well. I have a Yamaha 2.5 4-stroke and the instruction book clearly says that water must be coming out of the pilot holes at all times when the engine is running. This is what I would expect. Every motor I have ever used worked that way. I believe this is the main point you should take up with your Suzuki dealer. |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay wrote:
4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Wait a sec. Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose. Rick |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
Are you doing this testing in a bucket or small tank? Too small a tank will
cause enough turbulence, even in neutral, that the water intake may get intermittent supply. Put the motor on the boat in the lake and try it again. The comment about checking it in neutral refers to the fact that you shouldn't put an engine in gear, lean over the back and open the throttle. It's dangerous on account of you would get thrown out the back and, at a minimum, laughed at. The 2.5 hp is very low power so you could tie the boat to the dock and try it in gear, it won't pull too hard. From your descriptions it sounds like everything is fine. The poster who suggested taking it out and seeing what happens was correct. If you want to avoid potential paddling, tie it to the dock and run the motor in gear until you feel confident it runs well and then take it for a ride. |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
On May 19, 8:35*am, wrote:
On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay *wrote: 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Wait a sec. *Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd. Actually, Rick, I'm not really over-reacting; I'm just realizing that in the entire chain of events here something is amiss and I'm the type of person who likes ALL the ducks in a row before moving on. It's not an emotional state, it's a lifestyle. I fully realize that all is well with the motor in general and the only items left to sift out in this mystery are the veracity of the owner's manual vs. the design of the motor and/or both. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose. Rick Actually I've chatted with two Suzuki mechanics and both have scratched their heads regarding the manual and one is going to reach out to the major shop wizards in the Suzuki USA conglomerate. (And being unable to figure it out at the local level caused him a bit of chagrin...I could sense it through ther telephone wires). However, I'm leaning toward the bogus manual solution but we'll see. I'll let you know as soon as the word trickles down from the mountain. -Jay |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the owner's manual SUCKS!)
Jay wrote:
On May 19, 8:35 am, wrote: On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay wrote: 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Wait a sec. Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd. Actually, Rick, I'm not really over-reacting; I'm just realizing that in the entire chain of events here something is amiss and I'm the type of person who likes ALL the ducks in a row before moving on. It's not an emotional state, it's a lifestyle. I fully realize that all is well with the motor in general and the only items left to sift out in this mystery are the veracity of the owner's manual vs. the design of the motor and/or both. Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin. Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose. Rick Actually I've chatted with two Suzuki mechanics and both have scratched their heads regarding the manual and one is going to reach out to the major shop wizards in the Suzuki USA conglomerate. (And being unable to figure it out at the local level caused him a bit of chagrin...I could sense it through ther telephone wires). However, I'm leaning toward the bogus manual solution but we'll see. I'll let you know as soon as the word trickles down from the mountain. -Jay Personally I'd go for running it at the dock with an electronic thermometer monitoring the power head (hollow out a little block of polystyrene so the probe is insulated from the air and tape or wedge the probe against the cylinder head, with a little dab of thermal transfer grease (as used for PC CPUs etc.) for good heat conduction, with the polystyrene over it. Some time spent at varying revs and in and out of gear and you'll soon know which part of the manual to belive. Your own observations are likely to be more accurate than a manual that has suffered in translation . . . I must note however that unless the cooling water telltale or 'pee hole' squirts up into the air jetski style, you are very unlikely to notice a blockage in time. They seem to be more to let you check the impeller isn't b*****ed beginining of each trip. There is no simple way of adding an alarm to an engine without an electrical system at the design stage, One could only design in a thermal trip that operated the kill switch. Probably there would be enough false trips to make it a manufacturer's nightmare and a laywers dream :-( Perhaps there's a market for a minature watch battery powered alarm beeper that sticks inside the cowling with a probe that tapes to the cylinder head. |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
Anyone read manuals for British cars from the 60's?
lol! surfnturf wrote in message ... Jay wrote: "Water is NOT normally discharged at other speeds even when the engine is operating properly. Salty wrote: Truly bizarre. Especially when coupled with the part that says: "Never operate your outboard motor when there is no water coming out of the pilot water holest". I think the same guy writes the Honda manuals ;-) Rick |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
wrote in message ... The impeller in a car waterpump is METAL, for openers. Outboard waterpumps have to work in a very different environment, and so they are made of flexible materials. They are in contact with the insides of the pump housing to maintain a needed seal, and the material also can crack due to plain old aging and loss of flexibility. An outboard impeller can deteriorate from just age, without having any hours on it. That's why 2 years is a good time for routinely changing them even if they have very low hours on them. Likewise, an event where a lot of sand or mud gets sucked into it, or it is allowed to run while dry will cause an early death. Running dry ruins them almost instantly. They aren't ****. They are designed for a different set of rules than a car water pump. Boats are not automobiles, nor are they airplanes. An impeller of the type commonly used on outboards and small marine engines can have too much flexibility. The vanes need to be quite stiff as, after they have been pushed inwards by the cam, it is their inherent stiffness that allows them to spring back quickly and thereby suck in more water. I found this out when an impeller that seemed nice and flexible would pump just fine at slow revs but would cease to pump at higher revs because the vanes were too flexible to recover in the time available. I changed it for a stiffer one and problem disappeared. I have never known one to crack and think they would have to be out of use for a long time before this happened. Do not forget that there is always one vane bent inward when the engine is not in use so it pays to turn the engine over occasionally to move the impeller around a bit. Running dry is certainly sudden death to them and so I like to smear the impeller with soluble oil (hand cleaner) when first starting unprimed in the spring. |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
On Thu, 22 May 2008 12:06:29 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:42:48 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Wed, 21 May 2008 22:16:49 -0400, wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2008 01:11:53 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Sat, 17 May 2008 07:21:53 -0400, wrote: You should plan on replacing the impeller every other season regardless of anything else, including whether the motor was even used or not. It's not a hard job, but it's an important bit of maintenance. 10 000 miles in a car, at 50 MPH is the same two hundred hours that is a lot for most small boats. The family ride reached 170 000 miles with a set of spark plugs that it didn't need, at 100 000 miles. Then it developed low compression on one cylinder, and I figured the writing was on the wall and had them put in a rebuilt motor with a warrenty. Used up a motor with lots of miles, but the water pump never caused trouble. Casady Are you on drugs? Seriously! I seriously believe that water pumps shouldn't wear out in only a few hundred hours. How many hours is 170 000 miles? Yacht engines get used little on the average. 200 hours per year is one figure I read. The family auto and everything on it have been trouble free for about 5000 hours Gas oil and tires and that was it. Why are boat pumps ****? Casady The impeller in a car waterpump is METAL, for openers. Outboard waterpumps have to work in a very different environment, and so they are made of flexible materials. They are in contact with the insides of the pump housing to maintain a needed seal, and the material also can crack due to plain old aging and loss of flexibility. An outboard impeller can deteriorate from just age, without having any hours on it. That's why 2 years is a good time for routinely changing them even if they have very low hours on them. Likewise, an event where a lot of sand or mud gets sucked into it, or it is allowed to run while dry will cause an early death. Running dry ruins them almost instantly. They aren't ****. Good. They are designed for a different set of rules than a car water pump. Boats are not automobiles, nor are they airplanes. That plastic impeller can perhaps have plasticisers leach out over time, making the thing brittle. I thought all the parts of the car were connected to the odometer so they can hang on to existance until the warrantee is up. Casady |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
"Edgar" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... The impeller in a car waterpump is METAL, for openers. Outboard waterpumps have to work in a very different environment, and so they are made of flexible materials. They are in contact with the insides of the pump housing to maintain a needed seal, and the material also can crack due to plain old aging and loss of flexibility. An outboard impeller can deteriorate from just age, without having any hours on it. That's why 2 years is a good time for routinely changing them even if they have very low hours on them. Likewise, an event where a lot of sand or mud gets sucked into it, or it is allowed to run while dry will cause an early death. Running dry ruins them almost instantly. They aren't ****. They are designed for a different set of rules than a car water pump. Boats are not automobiles, nor are they airplanes. An impeller of the type commonly used on outboards and small marine engines can have too much flexibility. The vanes need to be quite stiff as, after they have been pushed inwards by the cam, it is their inherent stiffness that allows them to spring back quickly and thereby suck in more water. I found this out when an impeller that seemed nice and flexible would pump just fine at slow revs but would cease to pump at higher revs because the vanes were too flexible to recover in the time available. I changed it for a stiffer one and problem disappeared. I have never known one to crack and think they would have to be out of use for a long time before this happened. Do not forget that there is always one vane bent inward when the engine is not in use so it pays to turn the engine over occasionally to move the impeller around a bit. Running dry is certainly sudden death to them and so I like to smear the impeller with soluble oil (hand cleaner) when first starting unprimed in the spring. Depends of the brand and model of the motor. I have a 2 HP Seagull that has a rigid impeller that works by centrifugal force. It can be run dry without damaging it because it doesn't rub on the housing like the rubber impellers do. There is no bending, no binding and no reason to turn the engine once in a while to keep one vane from bending and cracking. The Seagull is clearly superior to any new Suzuki. It will live in the marine environment for 20-30 years no problem. The Suzuki might last ten years with meticulous care. -- Gregory Hall |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
On 2008-05-22 16:48:50 -0400, (Richard
Casady) said: I thought all the parts of the car were connected to the odometer so they can hang on to existance until the warrantee is up. No, it's just good engineering. I was warned by the shop manager to replace our car's timing belt at the 45k checkup rather than the manual's 60k. I forgot, and it broke at 46.6k. Now that reliability is very important to buyers, the car companies have learned to improve it. Can anyone remember having to replace tires every 7k miles, tune-ups twice a year, ball joint replacement? -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (Update? From The SuzukiMechanics and Bigwigs)
I've talked to several Suzuki mechanics and to Customer Service at USA
Suzuki Marine and here are "answers" (i.e. "information") I received. 1--The amount of water squirting out of the pilot (pee) hole is determined by the rpms of the motor; the faster the motor revs, the bigger the stream. 2--The idle setting on the motor is 1800 rpm (which seemed quite peppy to me) but is needed to be that fast to keep the impeller pumping water. 3--At some speeds, there will not be a "stream" of water but only a "mist" that one can feel by putting one's hand in front of the pilot "pee" hole. 4--The manual still sucks. 5--There was a recsall issued by Suzuki for certain motors within a serial number range for a defecvtive cooling system. My motor was not in that group. And now for what REALLY ****ED ME OFF! I've owned Suzuki motorcycles and ATVs and have always like products made in Japan; however, in looking at the motor plate today I saw the words MADE IN THAILAND. GRRRRRRRRR...even the outsourcees are not outsourcing. |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (Update On Info From Mechanicsand Suzuki Customer Service)
I've talked to several Suzuki mechanics and to Customer Service at
USA Suzuki Marine and here are "answers" (i.e. "information") I received. 1--The amount of water squirting out of the pilot (pee) hole is determined by the rpms of the motor; the faster the motor revs, the bigger the stream. 2--The idle setting on the motor is 1800 rpm (which seemed quite peppy to me) but is needed to be that fast to keep the impeller pumping water at idle/low speed. 3--At some speeds, there will not be a "stream" of water but only a "mist" that one can feel by putting one's hand in front of the pilot "pee" hole. 4--The manual still sucks. 5--There was a recall issued by Suzuki for certain motors within a serial number range for a defective cooling system. My motor was not in that group. And now for what REALLY ****ED ME OFF! I've owned Suzuki motorcycles and ATVs and have always liked the quality and style of products made in Japan; however, in looking at the motor plate today I saw the words MADE IN THAILAND stamped therein. GRRRRRRRRR...even our outsourcees are now outsourcing. Where will it all end? -Jay (Who may be reliving dreams about that 5HP air-cooled Briggs & Stratton outboard he passed up for $699 although it was probably made in Bangladesh, Nigeria or high in the mountains of Nepal..lol) |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
"Gregory Hall" wrote in message ... Depends of the brand and model of the motor. I have a 2 HP Seagull that has a rigid impeller that works by centrifugal force. It can be run dry without damaging it because it doesn't rub on the housing like the rubber impellers do. There is no bending, no binding and no reason to turn the engine once in a while to keep one vane from bending and cracking. The Seagull is clearly superior to any new Suzuki. It will live in the marine environment for 20-30 years no problem. The Suzuki might last ten years with meticulous care. -- Gregory Hall You are right about Seagulls. Apart from my little Yamaha I have a Seagull Century Plus that I got new in 1954 and I will never part with it. It is really useful to be able to run it up dry on the bench so that you are sure all is in order before you take it to the boat and it has a large propeller that will push my 15' 6" wooden dinghy up to hull speed. It is heavy, noisy and oily but I know it will not stop running for anything as long as you feed it clean fuel. If it should stop you can fix any likely problem in the boat with just three simple tools. "They don't make them like that any more!" |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (Update On Info From Mechanics and Suzuki Customer Service)
Well... my original question is addressed in #3, At least we know
there IS and indicator at all times of impeller operation. That's good. But now I have a new question brought on by #2. I don't think I've ever tried to put any motor in gear at 1800 rpm. Are the backs of your boat seats equipped with head rests? Seems like whiplash may be a problem ;-) Seriously though, stay in touch. I'm interested to know how it all works out over time. Rick ---- still think you did better than the Briggs & Stratton On Fri, 23 May 08, Jay wrote: I've talked to several Suzuki mechanics and to Customer Service at USA Suzuki Marine and here are "answers" (i.e. "information") I received. 1--The amount of water squirting out of the pilot (pee) hole is determined by the rpms of the motor; the faster the motor revs, the bigger the stream. 2--The idle setting on the motor is 1800 rpm (which seemed quite peppy to me) but is needed to be that fast to keep the impeller pumping water at idle/low speed. 3--At some speeds, there will not be a "stream" of water but only a "mist" that one can feel by putting one's hand in front of the pilot "pee" hole. 4--The manual still sucks. 5--There was a recall issued by Suzuki for certain motors within a serial number range for a defective cooling system. My motor was not in that group. And now for what REALLY ****ED ME OFF! I've owned Suzuki motorcycles and ATVs and have always liked the quality and style of products made in Japan; however, in looking at the motor plate today I saw the words MADE IN THAILAND stamped therein. GRRRRRRRRR...even our outsourcees are now outsourcing. Where will it all end? -Jay (Who may be reliving dreams about that 5HP air-cooled Briggs & Stratton outboard he passed up for $699 although it was probably made in Bangladesh, Nigeria or high in the mountains of Nepal..lol) |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system isworking!)
On May 17, 10:45*pm, Jay wrote:
On May 17, 9:04*pm, Vic Smith wrote: Not knowing anything about OB cooling systems, a couple questions. 1. If the OB has a thermostat, can it be fully closed? 2. With the OB's you are familiar with, can the engine overheat even when the pee hole has a stream? I'm thinking Jay's new OB is designed to discharge all cooling water through the thermostat, and if it's shut, no stream. Though I know OB owners basically worship that peehole stream as the Holy Grail of engine heat control, it may not so important with this small engine. * Vic, I think you may have the answer to the way the Suzuki 2.5 works and the other confusion is just the result of a crappily-written manual. From what I've gathered about this little OB, the water does not begin to squirt out the "holes" until the motor reached a certain operating temperature and the thermostat opens and releases the water to be squirted out of the holes. |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (See what makes it tick).
Being both an outboard motor rookie and a non-mechanic, I'm sure there are many out there who can look at these diagrams of the inner workings of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard and perhaps get a better idea on why it seems to operate against the norm. Let me know what you think after perusing the link. -Jay http://store.brownspoint.com/df2.5/2_50607.asp |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (See what makes it tick).
What a cute little motor :-)
Having perused the parts breakdown, I do believe I could take it completely apart and put it back together again. But I'm still not sure I see the advantage of designing the cooling system monitor the way it is. As long as it warns you in advance though, to shut down before you burn up, I say what the hey. Run with it. Looks like a spiffy litte motor to me. Rick On Tue, 27 May 08, Jay wrote: Being both an outboard motor rookie and a non-mechanic, I'm sure there are many out there who can look at these diagrams of the inner workings of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard and perhaps get a better idea on why it seems to operate against the norm. Let me know what you think after perusing the link. -Jay http://store.brownspoint.com/df2.5/2_50607.asp |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (And the cooling system is working!)
On Mon, 26 May 2008 23:02:07 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote: Vic, I think you may have the answer to the way the Suzuki 2.5 works and the other confusion is just the result of a crappily-written manual. From what I've gathered about this little OB, the water does not begin to squirt out the "holes" until the motor reached a certain operating temperature and the thermostat opens and releases the water to be squirted out of the holes. Poor telltales are probably more common than peehole gazers think. http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/t...91970&posts=10 I've seen it mentioned with OB's other than Mercs too. IMO, that telltale is of limited use anyway, slightly better than nothing. Mostly when starting up - in some cases waiting a couple minutes until the thermostat opens to see the flow. Then what? When I was running small OB's I would sometimes run wide open for 1/2 an hour or more - looking where I was going and for overtakers, not all twisted up backwards like a pretzel around the motor staring at a telltale. In all the years I've fished on many different boats with many different engines and owners, I never saw anybody pay any attention to the telltale after the initial warmup and on subsequent restarts, when you're backwards cranking the rope anyway. Maybe half a minute after a pump failure before it starts affecting operation. Some designs might give you time to shut it down before any harm is done, others might not be so forgiving. Never happened to me, so that's speculation. I suspect the newer big ones have a temp sensor to throw an alarm or do a shutdown. Follow the impeller/thermostat maintenance schedule, check the telltale when you start it up, then forget about it or you'll get a twisted neck and maybe run into something. That's my take on it. The only owner experience I found was http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php?Number=1163278 which basically says the same thing you've been saying. And this http://macgregor26x.com/phpBB/viewto...ad0c a9faf140 Where the owner says the 1800 rpm idle is to meet the emissions target Suzuki was aiming at, and that he monkeyed with the idle to lower it, but then has to choke it to run smooth. Doesn't mention telltale. This motor has been around a while, and to find so little about it is probably a good thing. --Vic |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (See what makes it tick).
On May 27, 10:26*am, wrote:
What a cute little motor *:-) Having perused the parts breakdown, I do believe I could take it completely apart and put it back together again. Well, Rick, I knew a "nuts and bolts guy" like yourself would enjoy the parts diagram approach...lol. To you, it's not the sum total of the parts, IT'S THE PARTS...LOL But that's cool 'cause what would the world do without the details detail? So when do you want to come visit and take my motor apart and put it back together again? I'd need a hefty deposit though (insurance) before you started. -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
Go electric!
Why? Electricity comes from largely fossil-fueled sources. The factories that make the electric motors & the batteries are not really "clean" ecologically. Even if you largely recharge from solar panels, the pollution footprint from an electric outboard will be about 90% (or more) that of a regular gasoline outboard. OTOH these factors are certain to change in the next few decades. Another key difference is that the electric motor is quiet, reliable, produces it's torque efficiently at across a much wider range of RPMs, and won't leave stinky exhaust or an oil slick in your immediate environment... which may be nice in many situations. "Don White" wrote: I have a 30 lb. thrust Minn-Kota we used on a dinghy we once had but didn't think that would even budge the 14' aluminum boat. What thrust rating would you think it would take in an electric to achieve the same speed/power as the 4HP Suzuki DF4M? Well, you need to know the torque specs more than HP. It might help to look at the European specs for a range of motors, usually they specify power in KW not HP, so you can compare more directly. As a general rule of thumb, a 32-lb thrust motor is approx equal to a 5 HP. My 2004 Princecraft Yukon (14.5' open aluminum boat) came with an electric trolling motor.. and from what I've seen it's only good for creeping along as long as you're in protected calm water with no wind. I use it to take me from the launch ramp to a nearby dock and back again when it's time to retrieve. Yeah, but it was designed for TROLLING! Try putting a slightly higher pitch prop on it, and see what you get. I think oars would do just as good a job and be more reliable. HERESY! HERESY!! "We have found a witch, may we burn him?" Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived! (See what makes it tick).
On May 28, 3:33*am, wrote:
Those diagrams don't have the information you would need to answer the question intelligently or correctly. Actually, the diagrams of the motor components were presented primarily so Rick could get a look at the inner workings of the little OB. They weren't meant to be a definitive problem-solver of any sort. It wouldn't matter if it did. Simple logic alone says that if a cooling telltale operates intermittantly when the engine is running fine, it is completely useless as a telltale to warn you when there is trouble. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Only if one is putting all of one's marbles in the "tell-tale" basket and assuming (perhaps correctly, perhaps incorrectly) there is no other warning system that the motor is overheating. Perhaps there could be a loud alarm when the temperature reaches critical levels or maybe a microchip inside connected to an artificial voice device talks to you in a very loud voice warning the operator of the imminent danger or maybe there's an "idiot light" like on cars or (gasp) even an gauge to monitor internal motor temps. Is the following a fair analogy? In an automobile engine, when the thermostat opens (indicating the water in the 'jacket' around the engine is getting too hot and it's time to be cooled), it "pees" the hot water back into the radiator to be cooled anew whereas, when the outboard gets too hot, the thermostat opens and "pees" the water back into the lake and the water pump of the outboard brings in new cool water from the lake (in essence, the outboard motor's "radiator"), just like the radiator sends cooled water to the engine jacket to replace the water "peed" out by the thermostat, to keep the outboard running at a normal operating temperature and preventing damage. So, (just speculating here), if the little Suzuki operates the same way, then water would NOT be coming out of the "pee holes" all the time, would it? It would only be expelled when necessary (i.e., when the internal thermostat said the water currently cooling the motor was too hot to properly do its job and fresh, cooler water was needed. Therefore, it would "pee" out the old and bring in fresh, cooler water from the lake to replace it --- ONLY when necessary...thus the "intermittent" ejection of water. Just my attempt at "simple logic" as stated by the previous author. Am I way off here in this stab at deductive reasoning? -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
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The Suzuki DF2.5 HP Has Arrived!
On May 28, 1:28*pm, Jay wrote:
On May 28, 3:33*am, wrote: Those diagrams don't have the information you would need to answer the question intelligently or correctly. Actually, the diagrams of the motor components were presented primarily so Rick could get a look at the inner workings of the little OB. *They weren't meant to be a definitive problem-solver of any sort. It wouldn't matter if it did. Simple logic alone says that if a cooling telltale operates intermittantly when the engine is running fine, it is completely useless as a telltale to warn you when there is trouble. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Only if one is putting all of one's marbles in the "tell-tale" basket and assuming (perhaps correctly, perhaps incorrectly) there is no other warning system that the motor is overheating. *Perhaps there could be a loud alarm when the temperature reaches critical levels or maybe a microchip inside connected to an artificial voice device talks to you in a very loud voice warning the operator of the imminent danger or maybe there's an "idiot light" like on cars or (gasp) even an gauge to monitor internal motor temps. Is the following a fair analogy? *In an automobile engine, when the thermostat opens (indicating the water in the 'jacket' around the engine is getting too hot and it's time to be cooled), it "pees" the hot water back into the radiator to be cooled anew whereas, when the outboard gets too hot, the thermostat opens and "pees" the water back into the lake and the water pump of the outboard brings in new cool water from the lake (in essence, the outboard motor's "radiator"), just like the radiator sends cooled water to the engine jacket to replace the water "peed" out by the thermostat, to keep the outboard running at a normal operating temperature and preventing damage. So, (just speculating here), if the little Suzuki operates the same way, then water would NOT be coming out of the "pee holes" all the time, would it? *It would only be expelled when necessary (i.e., when the internal thermostat said the water currently cooling the motor was too hot to properly do its job and fresh, cooler water was needed. Therefore, it would "pee" out the old and bring in fresh, cooler water from the lake to replace it --- ONLY when necessary...thus the "intermittent" ejection of water. Just my attempt at "simple logic" as stated by the previous author. *Am I way off here in this stab at deductive reasoning? -Jay |
The Suzuki DF2.5 HP
On May 28, 2:37*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:28:48 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote: On May 28, 3:33*am, wrote: Those diagrams don't have the information you would need to answer the question intelligently or correctly. Actually, the diagrams of the motor components were presented primarily so Rick could get a look at the inner workings of the little OB. *They weren't meant to be a definitive problem-solver of any sort. It wouldn't matter if it did. Simple logic alone says that if a cooling telltale operates intermittantly when the engine is running fine, it is completely useless as a telltale to warn you when there is trouble. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Only if one is putting all of one's marbles in the "tell-tale" basket and assuming (perhaps correctly, perhaps incorrectly) there is no other warning system that the motor is overheating. * If the tell tale operates as you say it does, then it doesn't need to exist at all. Perhaps there could be a loud alarm when the temperature reaches critical levels or maybe a microchip inside connected to an artificial voice device talks to you in a very loud voice warning the operator of the imminent danger or maybe there's an "idiot light" like on cars or (gasp) even an gauge to monitor internal motor temps. More wishful dreaming Unless, of course, an outboard you had never heard of came out that had a device to warn the operator of overheating. Is the following a fair analogy? *In an automobile engine, when the thermostat opens (indicating the water in the 'jacket' around the engine is getting too hot and it's time to be cooled), it "pees" the hot water back into the radiator to be cooled anew whereas, when the outboard gets too hot, the thermostat opens and "pees" the water back into the lake and the water pump of the outboard brings in new cool water from the lake (in essence, the outboard motor's "radiator"), just like the radiator sends cooled water to the engine jacket to replace the water "peed" out by the thermostat, to keep the outboard running at a normal operating temperature and preventing damage. So, (just speculating here), if the little Suzuki operates the same way, then water would NOT be coming out of the "pee holes" all the time, would it? *It would only be expelled when necessary (i.e., when the internal thermostat said the water currently cooling the motor was too hot to properly do its job and fresh, cooler water was needed. Therefore, it would "pee" out the old and bring in fresh, cooler water from the lake to replace it --- ONLY when necessary...thus the "intermittent" ejection of water. Nope. You have it completely wrong from start to finish to the point of absurdity. The pee hole is an INDICATOR. It is not the outlet for all of the water in the cooling circuits. The amount of water that comes out of it is very small and could never be the outlet for all of the cooling water. The water in an outboard constantly circulates from the pump, up the leg and back down again to exit either through the center of the prop or an exhaust port. When the thermostat opens, it ADDITIONALLY allows the water to additionally circulate through cooling passages in the cyclinder head and crankcase to cool them. The purpose of the pee-hole is to tell you that the water pump is not running dry, and is pumping water up to the engine area where the pee-hole resides. That's a critical, do or die, piece of information. Okay, in an automobile, what device performs the do or die piece of information to indicate that the car's water pump is working or not? A temp gauge or red light? IOW, to say that the water pump is running dry is also to say the motor is overheating, isn't it? Doesn't one immediately lead to the other? Therefore, it would seem like all the processes are really interconnected. So you're saying the water coming out of the pee holes is not water being released by the thermostat in the Suzuki DF2.5? Yes or no? Just my attempt at "simple logic" as stated by the previous author. *Am I way off here in this stab at deductive reasoning? Yes. You couldn't be further off if you knew everything about engines and were deliberately making up a fairy tale. But didn't you think it was an interesting fairy tale? Finally, if this Suzuki outboard of mine runs for several years with water only INTERMITTENTLY coming out of the "pee" holes and it never overheats, will you still cling to the notion that it's a defective piece of equipment? IOW, will you argue and continue to denigrate a successful and non-defective outboard motor design? Finally, is the goat that is sacrificed at the altar of the pee hole required to be a virgin nanny? lol -Jay (still sorting all of this out) |
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