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Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
Jay wrote
So whaddya think? If some say the Suzuki 4hp and even the 2.5 hp would push that 14 footer around the nice quiet lake at 5-6 mph, wouldn't that screamin' Tohatsu 3.5 hp two-stroke do the job too? BTW, the exhaust is under the water. Capital Jay! I push a 14' Al. all over the bay I live on with an old 2 HP Evenrude, works just fine. Hell I've towed a 27' 6500lb sailboat with it. Cheers Marty |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
Richard Casady wrote:
if the power required is small. We are both guessing about that all important figure In any case, that would require maybe an 8D battery, at 150 lbs, If you don't run it down below half. I figure a solar panel should be big enough to run a small ventilation fan, pump out any rainwater or leakage, and run an anchor light as well as just keep a battery charged. Somehow, my reading of the OPs message gave me a completely different impression. No mention of anchor light, ventilation, bilge pump, none of that. Just a simple row boat that he wants to push with power instead of oars. Just wants to putter around a bit, anchor a bit, snooze, read, and float. No range increase and no speed increase necessary. Ufortunately, no mention of a number of details like whether or not he trailers the boat or how/where he stores it. So I made some assumptions (and I should never have mentioned solar panel). I'm thinkin' 40-50 lb battery, not 150 lb. No electrical drain other than the trolling motor. Leave the battery in the boat on a trailer, (or not, remember it's only 40-50lbs) use a 110v battery charger to keep it up if a solar panel won't do. It's just a simple row boat. I have a 14' fiberglass skiff that's 225 lbs. I can almost plane it with a 6hp Evinrude if I sit amidships with a tiller extension (I'm 170 lbs). So I know 6hp is a lot more than he wants. From his post, I'm thinkin' even 2.5 is more than adequate for his needs.. Anyhow, you're right. We're all guessing ... and plugging our own wants and needs into his situation. Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Apr 12, 7:21*pm, wrote:
Richard Casady wrote: I thought he just wants something to free up his hands. Not an increase in power or range. Normally, you don't think of oars for range or to be used against headwinds or current or tides. None of which will he likely encounter on a small lake anyway (I'm thinkin' SMALL lake). And on a 14' 195 lb open boat? Even 2.5hp would be a big increase in power over oars..I'm just sayin', it takes very little mechanical effort to do the same job as oars on a small lake with a boat that small/light. -shrug- but maybe I'm misunderstanding what he's trying to accomplish. Rick No, Rick, you're understanding perfectly what I'm looking for. Something that will provide push a notch above oars and save me from rowing. Somehow, my reading of the OPs message gave me a completely different impression. No mention of anchor light, ventilation, bilge pump, none of that. Just a simple row boat that he wants to push with power instead of oars. Just wants to putter around a bit, anchor a bit, snooze, read, and float. No range increase and no speed increase necessary. Right again, keep it simple. Just a rowboat with a motor to replace the human power. No extras, nothing more, simple, simple, simple setup. Unfortunately, no mention of a number of details like whether or not he trailers the boat or how/where he stores it. Boat is a G3 Guide V14 on a standard boat trailer that cost about $500 new and the boat is stored on the trailer under a carport. I have a 14' fiberglass skiff that's 225 lbs. I can almost plane it with a 6hp Evinrude if I sit amidships with a tiller extension (I'm 170lbs). So I know 6hp is a lot more than he wants. From his post,I'm thinkin' even 2.5 is more than adequate for his needs..Anyhow, you're right. We're all guessing ... and plugging our own wants and needs into his situation. Rick Well, Rick, no prob there. That happens quite often in newsgroups. Check out the price ($721) of this new 2008 Suzuki 2.5 HP on this link (free shipping). http://omnimarinefl.com/mm5/merchant...ategory_Code=1 Could that Suzuki be my new seat of oars? LOL Or maybe this Tohatsu 3.5 HP for $830. http://omnimarinefl.com/mm5/merchant...ategory_Code=4 Other Tohatsu motors..... http://omnimarinefl.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Co de=4 Other Suzuki motors....... http://omnimarinefl.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Co de=3 |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Sat, 12 Apr wrote:
you're understanding perfectly what I'm looking for. Something that will provide push a notch above oars and save me from rowing. Nice boat :-) Frankly, I don't think you can go wrong with anything that's been mentioned so far. By the sounds of your current needs, electric will work fine. And it has price and maintenance advantages over gas. Problem is, your boat has potential to be so much more. If you think you may ever expand your horizons, you might do better spending the extra $$ now on gas, just in case. Electric is almost dead silent. I would especially like that on a small quiet lake. And if you store it for years, it'll work when you drag it out. Gas can be more cantankerous when out of mind for that long. There's advantages/disadvantages to both. Another consideration. It's natural for people to want more than they have. We'll always want something a little bigger, a little faster, a little more. So if you fall into that category, you might as well consider 15-20hp and be done with it lol! OR go electric for very few dollars now and start saving for when the expansion bug bites. You have no wrong options here (nothing wrong with oars either). My 2 cents............. ;-) Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Apr 13, 4:19*am, wrote:
Nice boat :-) Frankly, I don't think you can go wrong with anything that's been mentioned so far. By the sounds of your current needs, electric will work fine. And it has price and maintenance advantages over gas. Problem is, your boat has potential to be so much more. *If you think you may ever expand your horizons, you might do better spending the extra $$ now on gas, just in case. Actually, the next boat, if there is one in the future, will be a 21' Party Barge pontoon type. I've already received the "word" on that from above. And it will come with a mega-horsepower motor so that won't be a decision I'll have to make. Electric is almost dead silent. I would especially like that on a small quiet lake. And if you store it for years, it'll work when you drag it out. Gas can be more cantankerous when out of mind for that long. There's advantages/disadvantages to both. I already own a 30 lb. thrust Minn-Kota electric motor and have a big marine deep cycle battery but didn't think that would even get the Guide V14 moving at all. How does a 30 lb. thrust electric equate to a gas outboard. What equivalent horsepower? Another consideration. It's natural for people to want more than they have.. We'll always want something a little bigger, a little faster, a little more. So if you fall into that category, you might as well consider 15-20hp and be done with it lol! *OR go electric for very few dollars now and start saving for when the expansion bug bites. I don't fall into that category nor do I buy compulsively I carefully choose my purchases after looking into possible future needs and if I'm gonna pull water skiers or jet across the reservoir at Mach 1 it won't be in that G3 Guide V14. Nope, that boat has been strictly designated the floating raft that moves occasionally to a shady nook or inlet to the lake while the babe and I relax on the water. And I can relax more if I not rowing. You have no wrong options here (nothing wrong with oars either). My 2 cents.............. *;-) Rick Not true, there IS something wrong with oars. I have to use my arms and hands to make them move! That's what this whole gig is about. Hiowever, with all of the input I'm sorta leaning between the Suzuki 2.5 HP 4-stroke, the Tohatsu 4 HP 4-stroke and the Tohatsu 3.5 HP 2-stroke. Check out this nice review on the Suzuki 2.5 hp which I can have delivered to my front door for $721.00. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Suzuki's DF2.5 is the world's most fuel efficient tender outboard, reports Andrew Norton The DF2.5 is the smallest and lightest four-stroke outboard Suzuki Marine has released. Weighing just 30 lbs., the DF2.5 has a 68cc single-cylinder OHV powerhead with thermostatically-controlled watercooling. Developing 2.4hp at 5500 revs (based on 1hp equaling 746W) with a Wide Open Throttle operating range of 5250 to 5750rpm, the DF2.5 has a forward-neutral gearshift, 360-degree steering, twist-grip throttle control, four easily-adjusted trim positions and an automatically- engaging full tilt lock. Sensibly, Suzuki has incorporated a stopper device that prevents the powerhead rotating more than a few degrees when the outboard is fully tilted. Effective steering and throttle friction adjusters are provided. Unlike its Honda BF2D competition, the DF2.5 has a moulded carry handle on the aft end of the lower cowl, ensuring the outboard will always be carried the correct way to prevent sump oil from flooding the cylinder. Alternatively, the outboard may be stored on its side on the moulded lower cowl lugs provided. Like the Honda, the DF2.5 has an easily-read oil level sight glass in the lower cowl, with the sump accessed by unscrewing a plug to one side of the sump, which holds 0.38lt of oil. But, unlike the Honda, which relies on splash or 'mist' lubrication and can only use Honda SAE 10W30 oil that's rated to a maximum ambient temperature of 32 degrees, the pressure-lubricated DF2.5 can use oils from 10W30 up to 20W40. However the Quicksilver four-cycle watercooled 10W30 oil used by my local Suzuki dealer can be used in all ambient temperatures from minus 20 degrees to over 40 degrees and provides rapid crankshaft, piston ring and rocker gear lubrication on cold starting. Servicing intervals for the DF2.5 are every 50 hours or six months after the initial check-up at 20 hours. The waterpump impeller should be checked and/or replaced every 100 hours or once a year. A nice touch is the chrome rocker cover, which allows for valve clearance adjustment by removing four bolts, whereas this adjustment in the Honda necessitates removing the entire air cooling shroud, including the overhead recoil starter. The DF2.5's large-capacity zinc anode just above the anti-ventilation plate should handle any leg electrolysis when the tender is rafted up alongside a yacht or cruiser. Compared to the BF2D, the DF2.5 swings a relatively coarse-pitch prop for such a small outboard, even allowing for its 2.15:1 reduction ratio. But whereas the Honda has a 2.42:1 gear reduction and a 4.5- inch pitch prop compared to 5.4 inches for the Suzuki, the latter's prop is weedless and able to 'slip' a lot more under load compared to the Honda's 'high thrust' prop. The swept-back weedless blades also catch less weed than the Honda's prop. The DF2.5 normally starts first pull, hot or cold, and reaches normal operating temperature in about two minutes from cold. The lack of water spraying from the exhaust relief holes until the thermostat has opened is a bit disconcerting and Suzuki should fit a separate pilot water discharge similar to the DF4 to DF6 range of four strokes. Because of its small displacement powerhead, the DF2.5 idles in neutral at around 2000rpm and 1500 in gear, whereas with its centrifugal clutch the Honda idles at about 1500 in neutral. But, when trolling, the Suzuki would run for up to 10 hours on a litre of fuel compared to eight for the Honda. And, despite its 19 per cent greater piston displacement, the Suzuki has lower vibration levels and, being watercooled, it is significantly quieter across the entire rev range. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx So Tohatsu 3.5 HP 2-stroke ($650), Suzuki 2.5 HP 4-stroke ($721), Tohatsu 3.5 HP 4-stroke ($835) or Tohatsu 4 HP 4-stroke) $965? Decisions, decisions.....any preferences out there for one of these if my 30 lb. Minn-Kota electric won't push it around with 500 lbs. on board? -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Sun, 13 Apr 08, Jay wrote:
I already own a 30 lb. thrust Minn-Kota electric motor and have a big marine deep cycle battery but didn't think that would even get the Guide V14 moving at all. Try it! And let us know. Don't forget to take your oars just in case lol! On a lake with no wind, no current, and a fresh battery, 30lbs will move it. Maybe not fast enough (I had 40-50 lbs in mind), but since you already have it, it won't cost a dime to experiment. There's no better way to find out what it'll do. What do you use your trolling motor for currently? (I'm thinking about 30lbs for my canoe). Meanwhile, sounds like you're set on a gasoline engine and there's certainly nothing wrong with that idea. To each his own. (but seriously, just try 30lbs and let us know) Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On A "Jay" wrote in message ... Not true, there IS something wrong with oars. I have to use my arms and hands to make them move! That's what this whole gig is about. Oars are the way to go if you have a decent dinghy and decent oars to row it with. I have proper dinghies and have often rowed out to my boat on the mooring and got there before the other guy had mounted his o/b and got it running to try and catch up with me.. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Suzuki's DF2.5 is the world's most fuel efficient tender outboard, reports Andrew Norton The DF2.5 is the smallest and lightest four-stroke outboard Suzuki Marine has released. Weighing just 30 lbs., the DF2.5 has a 68cc single-cylinder OHV powerhead with thermostatically-controlled watercooling. For cases where a motor is needed (inflatable dinghy with lousy plastic oars)I have a Yamaha F2.5a. Nice little four-stroke motor which does all that you say but is a bit heavier at 371/2 lb. And for a seldom used 2.5 hp o/b fuel consumption is hardly an issue. |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Apr 13, 7:59*am, "Edgar" wrote:
On A"Jay" wrote in message ... Not true, there IS something wrong with oars. *I have to use my arms and hands to make them move! *That's what this whole gig is about. Oars are the way to go if you have a decent dinghy and decent oars to row it with. *I have proper dinghies and have often rowed out to my boat on the mooring and got there before the other guy had mounted his o/b and got it running to try and catch up with me.. But Edgar, my getting rid of the reliance on oars is not about getting my dinghy to another boat, it's about that old Greyhound Bus phrase "leave the driving to us." I don't want to row anymore...been there, done that. I want someone/something else to do the work for me. Earlier, Rick asked, "What do you use your trolling motor for currently? (I'm thinking about 30lbs for my canoe). We used to have a Walker Bay 10 that would skim along the water at a pretty good pace with oar-power and used the 30 lb. thrust electric motor on that. We sold the Walker Bay when we got the G3 Guide V14. -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On 2008-04-13 08:15:10 -0400, Jay said:
Decisions, decisions.....any preferences out there for one of these if my 30 lb. Minn-Kota electric won't push it around with 500 lbs. on board? If you've got the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps a knot or two in flat water. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Apr 14, 5:50*pm, Jere Lull wrote: If you've got
the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps a knot or two in flat water. Jere Lull I'll give it a try. Does anyone know of a formula to roughly equate electric motors to horsepower? Would be curious as to the horsepower equivalent of my Minn-Kota Endura 30. -J |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote: On Apr 14, 5:50*pm, Jere Lull wrote: If you've got the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps a knot or two in flat water. Jere Lull I'll give it a try. Does anyone know of a formula to roughly equate electric motors to horsepower? Would be curious as to the horsepower equivalent of my Minn-Kota Endura 30. -J Yes. Pounds of thrust times speed in feet per second equals foot pounds per second. 550 of them equals one HP. And its not 'roughly', its exact. It is also true that 746 watts equals one HP.Thats rounded off. Casady |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote: On Apr 14, 5:50*pm, Jere Lull wrote: If you've got the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps a knot or two in flat water. Jere Lull I'll give it a try. Does anyone know of a formula to roughly equate electric motors to horsepower? Would be curious as to the horsepower equivalent of my Minn-Kota Endura 30. -J Thrust is a treacherous unit for power. It needs an effective speed to make it sufficiently specified. 30 lb thrust at 2 mph = 134 Newton at 0.9 meters/second = 120 watts = 1/4 HP (say) But: 30 lb thrust at 4 mph = closer to 1/2 HP. Brian W |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
Jay wrote:
On Apr 14, 5:50 pm, Jere Lull wrote: If you've got the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps a knot or two in flat water. Jere Lull I'll give it a try. Does anyone know of a formula to roughly equate electric motors to horsepower? Would be curious as to the horsepower equivalent of my Minn-Kota Endura 30. -J The easiest way would be to find out much current the thing uses. I*E=P, assume about 90% effeciency, so HP= (P*0.9)/746 If you want that in simpler terms HP= ((volts x amps)*0.9)/746 Cheers Marty ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ Want to have instant messaging, and chat rooms, and discussion groups for your local users or business, you need dbabble! -- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dbabble.htm ---- |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
"Martin Baxter" wrote in message ... Don't leave out the fact that the electric trolling motor power is produced directly at the prop. There is significant power loss in a gas outboard between where it is produced and the prop that does the work. Hmm, I don't really know, but I don't think the losses should be all that big, one little water pump to turn, on set of crown and pinion gears. Intuitively I don't think you'd lose more than 15%.. I'll bet that most outboard manufactures measure output of just the head, no shaft, no water pump. It would not be as much as that. 3-5% would be about the right amount. |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Tue, 15 Apr 08, saltydog wrote:
power loss in a gas outboard between where it is produced and the prop that does the work. Years ago they measured outboard hp at the crankshaft but I thought they'd switched to measuring it at the prop at some point.... seems like in the early 1980's, not sure, it's been awhile back. And for a few years after that, it was difficult to compare the new X hp engines with an older engine of the same X hp. Does anybody besides me remember it that way? Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
Jay,
I drove myself about half nuts choosing a small outboard for my inflatable. Decided firmly on the Suzuki DF2.5 four stroke. UPS just delivered it a few minutes ago. It's a far cry from the old Johnnyrudes, lemmetellya. Lovely piece of gear indeed. The $729 you list is actually a pretty decent price, but, in the interest of not starving, I'm pretty good at finding the rock bottom lowest prices on stuff. Local dealers wanted almost a grand including sales tax, so that wouldn't cut it. Found a real nice guy named Ray Jr. at The Boat Place, Naples Florida, 239-200-9597. Who sold me one new in factory box, shipped to godforsaken scumhole known as Dallas, Texas, for over $100 less than your price. He shipped promptly, sent tracking # immediately, and provided a pleasant buying experience. Seemed like something you might want to know. And, as far as I know, 30 lb thrust is roughly one horsepower. Peace out........... On Apr 13, 7:15 am, Jay wrote: On Apr 13, 4:19 am, wrote: Nice boat :-) Frankly, I don't think you can go wrong with anything that's been mentioned so far. By the sounds of your current needs, electric will work fine. And it has price and maintenance advantages over gas. Problem is, your boat has potential to be so much more. If you think you may ever expand your horizons, you might do better spending the extra $$ now on gas, just in case. Actually, the next boat, if there is one in the future, will be a 21' Party Barge pontoon type. I've already received the "word" on that from above. And it will come with a mega-horsepower motor so that won't be a decision I'll have to make. Electric is almost dead silent. I would especially like that on a small quiet lake. And if you store it for years, it'll work when you drag it out. Gas can be more cantankerous when out of mind for that long. There's advantages/disadvantages to both. I already own a 30 lb. thrust Minn-Kota electric motor and have a big marine deep cycle battery but didn't think that would even get the Guide V14 moving at all. How does a 30 lb. thrust electric equate to a gas outboard. What equivalent horsepower? Another consideration. It's natural for people to want more than they have. We'll always want something a little bigger, a little faster, a little more. So if you fall into that category, you might as well consider 15-20hp and be done with it lol! OR go electric for very few dollars now and start saving for when the expansion bug bites. I don't fall into that category nor do I buy compulsively I carefully choose my purchases after looking into possible future needs and if I'm gonna pull water skiers or jet across the reservoir at Mach 1 it won't be in that G3 Guide V14. Nope, that boat has been strictly designated the floating raft that moves occasionally to a shady nook or inlet to the lake while the babe and I relax on the water. And I can relax more if I not rowing. You have no wrong options here (nothing wrong with oars either). My 2 cents............. ;-) Rick Not true, there IS something wrong with oars. I have to use my arms and hands to make them move! That's what this whole gig is about. Hiowever, with all of the input I'm sorta leaning between the Suzuki 2.5 HP 4-stroke, the Tohatsu 4 HP 4-stroke and the Tohatsu 3.5 HP 2-stroke. Check out this nice review on the Suzuki 2.5 hp which I can have delivered to my front door for $721.00. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Suzuki's DF2.5 is the world's most fuel efficient tender outboard, reports Andrew Norton The DF2.5 is the smallest and lightest four-stroke outboard Suzuki Marine has released. Weighing just 30 lbs., the DF2.5 has a 68cc single-cylinder OHV powerhead with thermostatically-controlled watercooling. Developing 2.4hp at 5500 revs (based on 1hp equaling 746W) with a Wide Open Throttle operating range of 5250 to 5750rpm, the DF2.5 has a forward-neutral gearshift, 360-degree steering, twist-grip throttle control, four easily-adjusted trim positions and an automatically- engaging full tilt lock. Sensibly, Suzuki has incorporated a stopper device that prevents the powerhead rotating more than a few degrees when the outboard is fully tilted. Effective steering and throttle friction adjusters are provided. Unlike its Honda BF2D competition, the DF2.5 has a moulded carry handle on the aft end of the lower cowl, ensuring the outboard will always be carried the correct way to prevent sump oil from flooding the cylinder. Alternatively, the outboard may be stored on its side on the moulded lower cowl lugs provided. Like the Honda, the DF2.5 has an easily-read oil level sight glass in the lower cowl, with the sump accessed by unscrewing a plug to one side of the sump, which holds 0.38lt of oil. But, unlike the Honda, which relies on splash or 'mist' lubrication and can only use Honda SAE 10W30 oil that's rated to a maximum ambient temperature of 32 degrees, the pressure-lubricated DF2.5 can use oils from 10W30 up to 20W40. However the Quicksilver four-cycle watercooled 10W30 oil used by my local Suzuki dealer can be used in all ambient temperatures from minus 20 degrees to over 40 degrees and provides rapid crankshaft, piston ring and rocker gear lubrication on cold starting. Servicing intervals for the DF2.5 are every 50 hours or six months after the initial check-up at 20 hours. The waterpump impeller should be checked and/or replaced every 100 hours or once a year. A nice touch is the chrome rocker cover, which allows for valve clearance adjustment by removing four bolts, whereas this adjustment in the Honda necessitates removing the entire air cooling shroud, including the overhead recoil starter. The DF2.5's large-capacity zinc anode just above the anti-ventilation plate should handle any leg electrolysis when the tender is rafted up alongside a yacht or cruiser. Compared to the BF2D, the DF2.5 swings a relatively coarse-pitch prop for such a small outboard, even allowing for its 2.15:1 reduction ratio. But whereas the Honda has a 2.42:1 gear reduction and a 4.5- inch pitch prop compared to 5.4 inches for the Suzuki, the latter's prop is weedless and able to 'slip' a lot more under load compared to the Honda's 'high thrust' prop. The swept-back weedless blades also catch less weed than the Honda's prop. The DF2.5 normally starts first pull, hot or cold, and reaches normal operating temperature in about two minutes from cold. The lack of water spraying from the exhaust relief holes until the thermostat has opened is a bit disconcerting and Suzuki should fit a separate pilot water discharge similar to the DF4 to DF6 range of four strokes. Because of its small displacement powerhead, the DF2.5 idles in neutral at around 2000rpm and 1500 in gear, whereas with its centrifugal clutch the Honda idles at about 1500 in neutral. But, when trolling, the Suzuki would run for up to 10 hours on a litre of fuel compared to eight for the Honda. And, despite its 19 per cent greater piston displacement, the Suzuki has lower vibration levels and, being watercooled, it is significantly quieter across the entire rev range. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx So Tohatsu 3.5 HP 2-stroke ($650), Suzuki 2.5 HP 4-stroke ($721), Tohatsu 3.5 HP 4-stroke ($835) or Tohatsu 4 HP 4-stroke) $965? Decisions, decisions.....any preferences out there for one of these if my 30 lb. Minn-Kota electric won't push it around with 500 lbs. on board? -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Apr 15, 6:01*pm, wrote:
Jay, I drove myself about half nuts choosing a small outboard for my inflatable. Decided firmly on the Suzuki DF2.5 four stroke. UPS just delivered it a few minutes ago. It's a far cry from the old Johnnyrudes, lemmetellya. Lovely piece of gear indeed. The $729 you list is actually a pretty decent price, but, in the interest of not starving, I'm pretty good at finding the rock bottom lowest prices on stuff. Local dealers wanted almost a grand including sales tax, so that wouldn't cut it. Found a real nice guy named Ray Jr. at The Boat Place, Naples Florida, 239-200-9597. Who sold me one new in factory box, shipped to godforsaken scumhole known as Dallas, Texas, for over $100 less than your price. He shipped promptly, sent tracking # immediately, and provided a pleasant buying experience. Seemed like something you might want to know. And, as far as I know, 30 lb thrust is roughly one horsepower. Peace out........... Sounds like a good match and price. Tohatsu/Nissan also had a 2HP that they changed to a 2.5 HP in January by tweaking the carb a bit, according to a tech I contacted at Tohatsu. Best price I've seen on that is about $685 delivered. Odd though that the motor on the Tohatsu 2.5 is 85.5cc while the one on the Suzuki 2.5 is 68cc. What's the bottom line advantage, if any, to an outboard that has the same horsepower rating as another yet has a greater cc displacement? BTW, that Tohatsu 2.5 and the Tohatsu 3.5 4-strokers have the same 85.5cc motor. What I find so nice about this group are the technical and informative responses one gets from the members. It also seems to be much more active that rec.boats. As you can tell, I'm rather new to the outboard scene. Been a rower of small boats for a long time but getting too old to make a career out of it so now turning to more alternate forms of energy than my arms and shoulders (does that make me hip and "green" with the times? lol) Ooops, guess I'm going the "wrong way" to achieve "alternate energy." I should be progressing "away" from technology? OMG, I'm already "green!" LOL But with all the help I've received and the options presented, I'm about ready to make a move and once I do, there'll be a comprehensive review on my choice, whether good or bad. -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
On Apr 15, 6:01*pm, wrote:
Jay, I drove myself about half nuts choosing a small outboard for my inflatable. Decided firmly on the Suzuki DF2.5 four stroke. UPS just delivered it a few minutes ago. It's a far cry from the old Johnnyrudes, lemmetellya. Lovely piece of gear indeed. Hurry and get that thing in the water. I want to know how quiet it is, how easy to start, power, etc. -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
|
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:38:02 -0400, Martin Baxter wrote: wrote: On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:36:10 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: "Martin Baxter" wrote in message ... Don't leave out the fact that the electric trolling motor power is produced directly at the prop. There is significant power loss in a gas outboard between where it is produced and the prop that does the work. Hmm, I don't really know, but I don't think the losses should be all that big, one little water pump to turn, on set of crown and pinion gears. Intuitively I don't think you'd lose more than 15%.. I'll bet that most outboard manufactures measure output of just the head, no shaft, no water pump. It would not be as much as that. 3-5% would be about the right amount. I think you're right Edgar, on a slightly larger motor, but two horse is pretty small and the losses would be more significant, frankly I'd be surprised though if they were more than 10% I think it would be a bit more than that. The drive train has to turn a 90 degree corner. And don't forget the power consumed by the alternator, along with the already mentioned water pump. These things add up. Alternator? On a two horse?, Cheers Marty Suzuki DF4 and DF6 are both available with a 6 amp alternator http://www.suzukimarine.com/sr_07/df6-4/features/ Ok, so twice the two horse, now the gear loss becomes less percentage wise. Six amps, fourteen volts, is 84 watts, just a bit bigger than 1/10 hp, even at 80% efficiency, even if the alternator is actually putting out the full six amps, still not not significant. Cheers Marty |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
When I started this thread I truly thought I had decided to either buy
a Suzuki 4hp or 6hp for my G3 Guide V14 aluminum utility boat; however, with all of the good information I've received with the variety of opinions I've trimmed it down to either a Suzuki 2.5hp for $721, a Suzuki 4hp for $1008 or a Tohatsu 4hp for $833. I believe the best "bang for the buck" is the Tohatsu 4hp 4-stroke and I'll probably order that this week Here are the specs for it. Does it sound like it'll push that 14 footer around the lake at a fast walk (4-6 mph)? (BTW, I gave the 30 lb. electric a brief trial and it was nice and quiet but just didn't move that Guide V14 like it had that slick- hulled Walker Bay 10.) The Tohatsu has through-the-prop exhaust, compression release for easy starting, and shallow water drive. It also comes standard with an oil pressure indicator for low oil levels and a built-in 1.1 liter (.29 U.S. gallon) fuel tank as well as having the option to add an external fuel tank. (It comes with the fittings.) It also has a forward- neutral-reverse gearshift and a 123cc displacement motor with an RPM range of 4500-5500 and a 59mm x 45mm bore and stroke. The gear ratio is 2:15:1 and it weighs 57 lbs. The dealer admits it's a 2007 but is brand-new in-the-box and never been in the water. The $833 (delivered to my door) price is about $150 cheaper than the price for a new 2008. It's even blue, same color as our boat. So has this rookie outboarder finally arrived at the best choice for the boat and the projected uses? Hope so. The Tohatsu, compared to the 5hp Briggs & Stratton (I had once given a fleeting glance to that machine because of the low price) is 1hp and 15cc less but will probably be easier on our ears while putting about and costs just a very few dollars more than the Briggs. And finally, I just couldn't see the Suzuki being worth $175-$200 more than the Tohatsu for our needs. So before I pick up that telephone and order in the next day or two, any last minute observations, criticisms, etc. on what I hope to be our final choice so we can quit agonizing over this outboard thing and get out on the lake where we belong. Thanx again. -Jay +++The Tohatsu 4HP 4-Stroke http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/4_4st.html +++Our G3 Guide V14 yacht http://www.g3boats.com/AnglerVSeries/GuideV/#features |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
Jay wrote:
So before I pick up that telephone and order in the next day or two, any last minute observations, criticisms, etc. on what I hope to be our final choice so we can quit agonizing over this outboard thing and get out on the lake where we belong. Thanx again. -Jay +++The Tohatsu 4HP 4-Stroke http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/4_4st.html +++Our G3 Guide V14 yacht Jay, I'm sure the Tohatsu will move you V14 along at 5 or 6 knots, it won't get up and plane, you won't be doing any water skiing. Compared to the Briggs, it'll be quiet. It will be very easy on gas, I think it's a good choice. FWIW, I have a canoe, 12ft aluminum punt, 14 and 15 ft runabouts, Evenrude 2Hp, Merc. 2.2., Scott-At****er 5.5, Evenrude 6, Johnson 8, Johnson 60, Merc 140 I/O, so I do have some experience. Cheers Marty |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
On Thu, 17 Apr 08, Martin Baxter wrote:
FWIW, I have a canoe Which motor do you use to power the canoe? I've been thinkin' "trolling motor" so I can keep most of the weight low and amidships instead of all hanging over the side near the stern. A 30lb thrust Minn Kota is on sale near me for $67 but since Jay's experiment, I'm thinkin' more like 50lbs so I can use it on a skiff as well. The smallest gasoline outboard I have at the moment is 6hp at 58lbs which is fine for the skiff but too much weight for the canoe. Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
|
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
PhantMan wrote:
I've been thinkin' "trolling motor" so I can keep most of the weight low and amidships instead of all hanging over the side near the stern. Martin Baxter wrote: The little 2 HP 'rude works just fine, pushes the canoe with two people aboard faster than you could paddle it. Yeah, but I wasn't concerned about push power. I was wondering what happens when the two people get out and leave the canoe to balance and float on its own. It doesn't tend towards capsize huh? Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
PhantMan wrote:
Yeah, but I wasn't concerned about push power. I was wondering what happens when the two people get out and leave the canoe to balance and float on its own. It doesn't tend towards capsize huh? saltydog wrote: The real thrill waiting for you is the first time you try a sharp turn, and the prop thrust rolls you over instead of turning the canoe. lol! No doubt there'll be some trial and error involved ;-) I've considered an outrigger, or rafting two canoes along side each other. I'd rather keep it as simple as I can though. Rick ---- still thinkin' |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
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Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
|
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
|
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
Marty wrote:
the motor is still inboard of a line parallel to the keel and projected aft from the widest beam. I have a Penobscot 16. It's fast but it's narrow with a rounded bottom and primary stability isn't its strong point. |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
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Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
Marty wrote:
the motor is still inboard of a line parallel to the keel and projected aft from the widest beam. PhantMan wrote: I have a Penobscot 16. It's fast but it's narrow with a rounded bottom and primary stability isn't its strong point. Martin Baxter Which is a good reason not to try to put too much horsepower on the thing, the average paddler is unlikely to be able to exert more about one eighth of a horsepower, put 16 times that on your canoe and you can understand the need for prudence. I completely agreee. That's why I'm thinkin' 30lb - 50lb trolling motor. I'm only curious about how my canoe would handle the weight of an outboard, not the horsepower. No question that even 1hp would be more than enough. How stable is your canoe? Wide beam? Flat bottom? Mine has neither. Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:53:57 -0400, Marty wrote:
A small motor on a 2 x 4 lashed to the gunwales at the stern doesn't have too bad of an affect on an empty canoe, the motor is still inboard of a line parallel to the keel and projected aft from the widest beam. The family Grumman canoe has a square stern, handy for mounting the rudder for sailing, as well as the 1/2, 1, or 3 HP outboard motors. Casady |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
saltydog wrote:
An electric motor weighs about 20+ pounds, and requires at least 1 60 pound battery to operate. I can use the battery weight low and forward for trim when I'm solo.. That gives you two hours of operation before you need to start looking for an electrical outlet. That'll work. That's two fewer hours of paddling than I'd be doing without it. My 3.5 hp outboard with a "neutral/forward" transmission weighs 29 pounds. That weight is impressive. But isn't that a two stroke? I'm thinkin' the new o/b's (4 stroke) would be more than that. But my main attraction to electric is silence. Even more quiet than a paddle. That matters in a dead silent swamp when you're sneakin' up on wildlife with a camera. Or sneakin' up on fish for that matter. I see your point though. And for the purpose of pushing the boat without the other considerations, it does make more sense. Rick |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
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Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS).
On Apr 18, 5:02*pm, wrote:
saltydog wrote: My 3.5 hp outboard with a "neutral/forward" transmission weighs 29 pounds.. That weight is impressive. But isn't that a two stroke? I'm thinkin' the new o/b's (4 stroke) would be more than that. Rick Rick, you are correct in regards to the Tohatsu/Nissan line. The Tohatsu/Nissan 3.5 hp 2-strokes weigh 29 lbs. The Tohatsu/Nissan 3.5 hp 4-strokes weigh 41 lbs. -Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the TohatsuMFS4BS)--the Tohatsu 4HP Makes The Final Cut.
On Apr 17, 6:13*am, Martin Baxter wrote:
Jay wrote: So before I pick up that telephone and order in the next day or two, any last minute observations, criticisms, etc. on what I hope to be our final choice so we can quit agonizing over this outboard thing and get out on the lake where we belong. *Thanx again. -Jay +++The Tohatsu 4HP 4-Stroke http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/4_4st.html +++Our G3 Guide V14 yacht Jay, I'm sure the Tohatsu will move you V14 along at 5 or 6 knots, it won't get up and plane, you won't be doing *any water skiing. *Compared to the Briggs, it'll be quiet. *It will be very easy on gas, I think it's a good choice. *FWIW, I have a canoe, 12ft aluminum punt, 14 and 15 ft runabouts, Evenrude 2Hp, Merc. 2.2., Scott-At****er 5.5, Evenrude 6, Johnson 8, Johnson 60, Merc 140 I/O, so I do have some experience. Cheers Marty Marty, I talked to the dealer again regarding the price on the Tohatsu MFS4 (4hp/4-stroke) and he agreed to a delivered price of $900 for the outboard motor AND the 3.1 gallon auxiliary fuel tank including all necessary hoses and connectors. It was between the 4hp Tohatsu for $833 + $67 delivered for the tank/connectors and the 2.5hp Suzuki 4-stroke for $600 delivered but I opted for the extra oomph of the 4hp Tohatsu and the 7-hour run time with the auxiliary tank. I figure it'll be $300 more well spent in the long run. Jay |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the Tohatsu MFS4BS)--theTohatsu 4HP Makes The Final Cut.
Jay wrote:
Suzuki 4-stroke for $600 delivered but I opted for the extra oomph of the 4hp Tohatsu and the 7-hour run time with the auxiliary tank. I figure it'll be $300 more well spent in the long run. Good, let us know how it works out. Cheers Marty |
Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6 (or maybe another choice, the TohatsuMFS4BS)--the Tohatsu 4HP Makes The Final Cut.
On Apr 22, 6:31*am, Martin Baxter wrote:
Good, let us know how it works out. Cheers Marty xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Well, Marty, it didn't work out. After the dealer cordially and in a very friendly tone agreed to the $900 price I stated earlier for all the equipment stated, he (Dave Rees of Dave Rees Marine aka Northeast Outboards in New York) decided that the deal was too "involved" as he put it and backpedaled right out the back door. He apparently began to think it was too "involved" when I sent an email outlining all the details we had mutually agreed to on the telephone and asked him to simply reply and confirm that I had all aspects of the deal correct. This apparently caused the cold realization of what he had promised to trigger a rapidly-advancing case of seller's remorse and he did the 180 on us. Needless to say, the link to Northeast Outboards and Dave Rees Marine has been removed from my desktop and favorites. But the story doesn't end there. The other choice I had pondered, the Suzuki 2.5 hp then reappeared and I contacted a very helpful and friendly Ray Jr. at The Boat Place in Florida (thanx Charles) and my $600 check for that motor delivered to my house is "in the mail" as the expression goes. BTW, Ray Jr. didn't have any problem with replying to the same type of email confirming the details of the purchase. Hmmmmm. Guess there are still some dealers left who aren't all blow and no show. Now I know that the Soozooky probably won't push us around the lake any more than a fast walk but hey, every dealer in this area wants a grand for it and the NADA used book on the 2007 is about what I'm paying for the 2008 new so I shouldn't have any problem recouping my money by selling it locally if it doesn't work out. And of course we haven't missed much boating fun by these little delays since the daily temps have been in the high 30's and even a fast-walk speed can put a wind chill factor on you that could take away from the pleasure of motoring across the lake. (The ice floes might present a problem too---lol). -Jay |
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