I let this sit for a few days to see if there would be more traffic,
but there hasn't, and the other places it's appeared have been
similarly stunned :{)) so rather than let it wait, here's the
responses:


From: Larry


Skip Gundlach wrote in
news:9724554c-5f6a-49a4-
:

energy-efficient equipment...)


Shoulda had the diesel genset rebuilt. Considering all the
power problems
of Flying Pig, it would have been cheaper and you could have
left the place
anchored out looking like a lighthouse...(c;

Heh. We took out the diesel genset because running it was akin
to having an operating Massey Ferguson in your living room.

We ran it a few times on our delivery (our initial trip, from Ft.
Lauderdale over to St. Pete, via Key West), and determined that
it was so oppressive that the only time we would use it was in an
emergency.

Given that its prime purpose was to power the Air Conditioning,
which we also made a value judgment to remove, the space
available in the ER was far more important to us than being able
to run more stuff.

See the next one, below, for commentary about running stuff.
However, as to power problems, as you should know, having been
intimately involved in their resolution, once a working
alternator, along with the proper sized (and shaped - I believe
the toothy look helps go around small corners and sheds heat
better) belt and pulley, was installed, our power problems
essentially went away.

A case in point was the dark and stormies, combined with no wind,
where we had to motor for 2 days in order to get somewhere before
it got truly nasty, recently. Despite the very high loads due to
all the incandescents in the motoring mode (lights were left
incandescent due to all the power generated under motor), the
computer running all the time (see original about *that* load),
the mikey and other profilgate use, we stayed at "ful" and
~14.3V on the monitor for the entire time.

And, FWIW, I noted in my log, a couple of starts ago, that our
current belt has just passed the 200 hour mark. In that time,
it's had two tightenings, the last being at 200 hours. No
indication that it might fail at any time in the foreseeable
future. I think I have a lifetime supply of belts, now, having
laid in spares in keeping with my prior experiences!

*******

Another poster said this about the Honda and other alternative
means of power generation:

"Roger that on the genset. When we first left we were pretty
dependent on our diesel generator. It failed 3 times in a year,
fortunately we had one solar panel and a low output wind
generator so it wasn't crippling but it was a pain in the ass.

I've got a lot of friends that depend on the Honda 2000
generators. They seem to be bullet proof mechanical marvels but
staying out for extended periods of time depends on how much
gasoline you can carry. Between the genset and the dink some guys
are floating around with 15 or 20 gallons of gas strapped to
their topsides.

We've been able to add 2 more panels and now we only start the
generator once a month to make sure the POS still works.

Angus

_________________
s/v Veranda
Veranda422.Blogspot.com "

*****

From: Bob


On Mar 15, 10:20 am, Skip Gundlach
wrote:
OT - Extremely long! - Energy Audit and budget


Skip,

I got lost about half way through.

How many Ah per day do you use away from the sock?

Bob

Hi, Bob,

I think you mean away from the dock?

As it works out, other than in the low wind, low sun days, we
are, indeed being self sufficient. In those cases, as noted, we
ran the Honda, accomplishing hot water and popcorn at the same
time. As I have not been as anal in measuring exactly our usages
as I might otherwise be, being in the middle of getting off the
boat for our shoreside excursions, I can't tell you exactly.

However, with the exceptions of the changes made and noted, we
expect we used about the number of AH/day as my original lists
showed. So, at anchor, ~110AH in Miami. That's because we
didn't need the fans - the breeze, even in 85+ weather was
sufficient for cooling - and our connection wasn't good enough
for Vonage, saving that overhead as well.

********


Those responses were typed as I was waiting for the lift; Flying Pig
is on the hard, now, and we're landside. My daughter's son was early,
but I got to be there for it, anyway, and I head off to my father's
85th at the end of the month. Before we relaunch I'll have had
another grandson and a graduation, so our seagoing posts (the upcoming
as-yet not posted logs of our last few trips excepted) will be sparse
for a while!

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
...
I let this sit for a few days to see if there would be more traffic,
but there hasn't, and the other places it's appeared have been
similarly stunned :{)) so rather than let it wait, here's the
responses:


Stunned? More like bored!

Wilbur Hubbard

Skip Gundlach wrote in news:2bc24fb4-bb92-48f5-
:

Given that its prime purpose was to power the Air Conditioning,
which we also made a value judgment to remove, the space
available in the ER was far more important to us than being able
to run more stuff.


Having been on your boat in the heat at the Megadock, I can attest to
removing both being two big mistakes unless you're going to be rafted up to
Roger in Maine all summer....Even then the sound of diesel is EASILY offset
by the sweating on a hot summer day...

A quiet cabinet genset will easily fit where the monster batteries are
corroding away as I type. Next makes one you can hardly hear run that will
put out 8KW for a little oil. When you put the cover on it, it's like it
was outside. It's a Kubota garden tractor diesel that's way underrated to
last for decades. I know where there's one with 9500 hours on it and it
doesn't even consume 2 oz of lube oil between changes in a hundred hours!

"Is that your bilge pump running?", they ask. "No, that's the diesel
genset." It's that quiet.

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:52:38 +0000, Larry wrote:

A quiet cabinet genset will easily fit where the monster batteries are
corroding away as I type. Next makes one you can hardly hear run that will
put out 8KW for a little oil.

Can you provide a URL for one of those ?

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:52:38 +0000, Larry wrote:

A quiet cabinet genset will easily fit where the monster batteries are
corroding away as I type. Next makes one you can hardly hear run that
will put out 8KW for a little oil.

Can you provide a URL for one of those ?



http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/

http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/generators.html

http://www.yellowbot.com/next-genera...-jacksonville-
fl.html

They run slower than 3600 RPM because they use a belt drive system to
increase the RPM from the Kubota running its favorite speed of 2800 RPM.

Having owned, now, two Honda electronic gensets, I think it's way past
time someone engineered a marine electronic generator set that operates
the same way. The frequency of these Next generators are still
dependent on engine speed, though slower. The electronic generators,
this is not so. The small electronic generators get their power from
tiny packages by running FASTER than the speed of directly coupled
gensets. The larger models in metal cases like my EU3000is run much
slower than those speeds, making them much quieter in operation, the
computer speeding them up only during heavy loads. A marine model would
operate similarly, saving noise and, much more importantly now, fuel.

A very slow turning diesel electronic genset would be very quiet,
indeed. It would also be tiny in comparison to the old 60 Hz monsters
because the actual alternator is a very high frequency, multiphase unit
that looks exactly like the magnets mounted on the flywheel with an
internal stator on an outboard motor. High voltage alternators keep
down the huge coils used to create 60 Hz on huge cores necessary to go
so low in frequency. That's no longer necessary, with the advances in
electronic power generation.

Next generators are nice, but still old tractor technology in a small
package. It's time to move on into the 21st Century, even for
sailboats.

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:31:10 +0000, Larry wrote:

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:52:38 +0000, Larry wrote:

A quiet cabinet genset will easily fit where the monster batteries are
corroding away as I type. Next makes one you can hardly hear run that
will put out 8KW for a little oil.

Can you provide a URL for one of those ?



http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/

http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/generators.html

http://www.yellowbot.com/next-genera...-jacksonville-
fl.html


Thanks.

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:31:10 +0000, Larry wrote:

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:52:38 +0000, Larry wrote:

A quiet cabinet genset will easily fit where the monster batteries are
corroding away as I type. Next makes one you can hardly hear run that
will put out 8KW for a little oil.

Can you provide a URL for one of those ?



http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/

http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/generators.html

http://www.yellowbot.com/next-genera...-jacksonville-
fl.html

They run slower than 3600 RPM because they use a belt drive system to
increase the RPM from the Kubota running its favorite speed of 2800 RPM.

Having owned, now, two Honda electronic gensets, I think it's way past
time someone engineered a marine electronic generator set that operates
the same way. The frequency of these Next generators are still
dependent on engine speed, though slower. The electronic generators,
this is not so. The small electronic generators get their power from
tiny packages by running FASTER than the speed of directly coupled
gensets. The larger models in metal cases like my EU3000is run much
slower than those speeds, making them much quieter in operation, the
computer speeding them up only during heavy loads. A marine model would
operate similarly, saving noise and, much more importantly now, fuel.

A very slow turning diesel electronic genset would be very quiet,
indeed. It would also be tiny in comparison to the old 60 Hz monsters
because the actual alternator is a very high frequency, multiphase unit
that looks exactly like the magnets mounted on the flywheel with an
internal stator on an outboard motor. High voltage alternators keep
down the huge coils used to create 60 Hz on huge cores necessary to go
so low in frequency. That's no longer necessary, with the advances in
electronic power generation.

Next generators are nice, but still old tractor technology in a small
package. It's time to move on into the 21st Century, even for
sailboats.


Yanmar now makes a KMG65E generator that fits between the 3 and 4
cylinder engines (J type, I think) and gearbox and output 230 VAC @ 13
amps continuous.

I believe they are the type you describe above as the "generator"
output feeds a Box of some sort that in turn feeds the mains. There is
an external control head that seems to turn things on and off.

I think the 21st century has arrived, at least in Japan.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

I believe they are the type you describe above as the "generator"
output feeds a Box of some sort that in turn feeds the mains. There is
an external control head that seems to turn things on and off.



Yes, the multiphase, high voltage, high frequency AC is simply rectified to
DC, then fed to a large switching power supply which, in turn, converts the
DC to a rather nice-looking, synthesized sine wave at perfectly 60 Hz and
120VAC so rock solid it is certified for computers. Variations in the load
from no load to full load don't vary the output perceptably at all from the
intense digital regulation.

My 3000is Honda is electric starting, but not intended to be remoteable
because it has a simple manual choke. I found some plans to remote control
it by installing a choke solenoid off an outboard motor into it, replacing
the manual choke knob with a pushbutton for local control. It was a 3 hour
job. I now have a control panel below the air conditioners in the
starboard bulkhead to control the EU3000is from inside the van. Honda got
the message with the new EU6500is 6.5KW, electronic genset. It has a
plugin remote control and computerized enrichment system with no choke just
like my 250cc, 1 cyl Honda Reflex scooter does. It simply starts at a
touch, cold or hot.

On Mar 19, 9:31 pm, Larry wrote:
Wayne.B wrote :

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:52:38 +0000, Larry wrote:

A quiet cabinet genset will easily fit where the monster batteries are
corroding away as I type. Next makes one you can hardly hear run that
will put out 8KW for a little oil.

Can you provide a URL for one of those ?

http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/

http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/generators.html

http://www.yellowbot.com/next-genera...-jacksonville-
fl.html

They run slower than 3600 RPM because they use a belt drive system to
increase the RPM from the Kubota running its favorite speed of 2800 RPM.

Having owned, now, two Honda electronic gensets, I think it's way past
time someone engineered a marine electronic generator set that operates
the same way. The frequency of these Next generators are still
dependent on engine speed, though slower. The electronic generators,
this is not so. The small electronic generators get their power from
tiny packages by running FASTER than the speed of directly coupled
gensets. The larger models in metal cases like my EU3000is run much
slower than those speeds, making them much quieter in operation, the
computer speeding them up only during heavy loads. A marine model would
operate similarly, saving noise and, much more importantly now, fuel.

A very slow turning diesel electronic genset would be very quiet,
indeed. It would also be tiny in comparison to the old 60 Hz monsters
because the actual alternator is a very high frequency, multiphase unit
that looks exactly like the magnets mounted on the flywheel with an
internal stator on an outboard motor. High voltage alternators keep
down the huge coils used to create 60 Hz on huge cores necessary to go
so low in frequency. That's no longer necessary, with the advances in
electronic power generation.

Next generators are nice, but still old tractor technology in a small
package. It's time to move on into the 21st Century, even for
sailboats.

Hi, again,

And how much do these beauties cost? ...

.... Our hosts ashore are generously offering us the use of one of
their cars. The current vehicle (pardon the expression) is a Ford
Hybrid.

When it's time to repower Flying Pig, I sincerely hope the technology
and the powerplants have caught up to the marine world, because, the
regenerative braking aside, I can see this technology in our boat,
very comfortably.

It's way OT, so I'll not go into it, but research how power is
delivered to the wheels and stored and generated. Seriously cool.
It's a gas (again, pardon the expression) to take an empty SUV to the
pump and *almost* squeeze in 12 gallons...

Meanwhile, the genset we took out was _under 800 hours_ (that's how
serious it was), and we've not missed the AC - or, at least, not
enough to regret regaining the storage and simplicity, even if we
wouldn't have needed the genset - even at the dock in August in
Charleston. At anchor, we sleep under blankets or, if unusually warm,
sheets. Assuming we ever get to somewhere with a reliable breeze,
we'll definitely - instead of nearly always - be just fine. It's the
dock queens that need the AC...

Oh, and, this summer, we'll start in Maine in either late June or
early July. With the 50* water around us, I have no doubt that, even
with the sometimes-blistering sun for 19 or so hours, we'll be under
blankets at night. Then we'll move south, staying in the warm, but
not hot, environment, getting to the Keys by fall (October-ish) before
we make the jump to the EC, likely never to sail back until it's time
to sell.

Back to the genset/hybrid concept, however, I readily accept the
possibilities for a very small powerplant with an accompanying very
large storage system, and a completely 110VAC boat. Simplifies a lot
of stuff, and despite the many systems we have aboard, I'm a big fan
of simple. In the meantime, our power generation and storage system
seems to be doing very well.

L8R

Skip

PS Wilbur, you're probably right - but the bored wouldn't have
bothered to read it, if even open it :{))

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip Gundlach wrote in news:27721b1b-bcc4-413b-
:

It's way OT, so I'll not go into it, but research how power is
delivered to the wheels and stored and generated. Seriously cool.
It's a gas (again, pardon the expression) to take an empty SUV to the
pump and *almost* squeeze in 12 gallons...


I don't know what the current prices of Next Gen's sets are. Ask them.

As to hybrid vehicles, the cost of gas isn't the only consideration.
They have much higher maintenance costs because you MUST go back to the
dealer for service, and even then lots of dealers have no electrical
engineer aboard to fix them, so they start parts swapping and praying on
the prayer rugs installed in each bay of the service department. Any
car part only available from a dealer marked "MODULE" is, of course,
prohibitively expensive as if it were made of Rhodium ($9400/oz today).
Every module, of course, that didn't solve the problem must still be
added to the bill, as usual. A hybrid is fine until it's broken.....out
of warranty. Then, it becomes a terrible burden far outstripping any
gas mileage increase. I want a car any bubba in a service station can
fix. You've been in mine...(c;

Drive by a Ford dealer's parts department and price a new battery pack
after the warranty has run out.....(c; These long battery pack
warranties hybrid manufacturers are eating are the only way to disguise
the replacement cost. (Hint - It's NOT $89.95)

The other note is resale value. The hybrids might as well be disposable
because, once out of warranty, with a battery pack that needs replacing
that's 4 years old, no fool in his right mind wants it. The hybrid
manufacturers keep coming out with "improved" models, rendering your
hybrid "old and obsolete" like no other vehicle ever produced since they
installed gearshift sticks to get the clutch pedals off the floor.

Add up all these costs.....even today, gas is cheaper.

Not to worry, FINALLY the oil company politicians are going to allow the
Smart Cars to come in from Europe.....well, only the least fuel
efficient ones. What America needs is a good 2-cylinder diesel city car
with 2 seats in it like a Smart Car. Don't hold your breath.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217861
Watch the video. It demolishes a Mercedes sedan....

Watch what happens to a concrete wall crashed by it at 70!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s

Of course if you get bored, you can swap out to the Suzuki Hayabusa
500hp motorcycle engine and eat Ferraris for lunch at the drags.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vExpEl0_5-Y

You're right...It's way OT....(c;