Gentlemen,
It isn't arrogance, it's knowledge. I have done this steel boat thing for 30
years. I have spent my money and done my time. I do know what I'm talking
about. How many steel boats have you built?
Steve

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 22:57:30 +0100, "Robert Larder"

wrote:


"Paul Cassel" skrev i en meddelelse
m...
Steve Lusardi wrote:
Ray,
First I have a real problem with anyone responding to queries when they
have no experience or specific knowledge of the subject and yet it
happens all the time in these use groups.

Ignore this fool's post. He clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

Such arrogance- had it occured to you that he might actually know what
he`s
talking about?
Clue.... what he says is correct, so what does that make you?
Bob Larder


Paul Cassel's post couldn't hold a candle to Lusardi's for arrogance.

hpeer wrote:
ray lunder wrote:
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one? Thanks as always.

Ray,

Are you looking new or used??

Howard
Ray,

I have a 33 foot steel boat, a bit small for steel but that's OK with me.

The best advise is to go to the Metal Boat Society and get on their
forum. That site has a number of professional designers and builders
and they are generous with their advice.

The advice about boats rusting from the inside out is true. You can get
to the outside, but not as readily to the inside and that is where the
moisture traps and causes rot. Warmer climes with humidity are worse.

See if you can find out how the inside was treated and if it was done by
someone competent. Interior metal preparation is probably the single
biggest deal in the boat for you will play hell redoing it.

Insulation is a big deal for a couple of reasons. I like the sprayed on
insulation as it seems to protect the underlying steel best.

Proper weep holes that let the water run down into the bilge are also
important. Keep the moisture off the hull.

I have seen some boats where the welding was pretty shabby, especially
if it was done by a home builder who was not up to par. My boat, lucky
me, if very fair by comparison.

I have had my boat three years. It is about 1,200 miles from where I am
so I only go out for 6 weeks in the summer then close her up. Last year
I had someone put a heater in her and when I got to her she was filled
with water almost to the sole. It cause some of the interior coal tar
epoxy to separate from the metal. I spent too much time them sanding and
recoating with two part zinc primer. My knees still hurt. However, the
metal was shiny underneath.

Steel expands something like 16 times its original thickness when it
rusts so you should be able to see rust when it starts. You will need
to get on it right away to control it.

There is disagreement over monel or mild steel. From what I can tell
either will do just fine. The builder needs to be careful of using
dissimilar metals and you need to pay attention to bottom paints. On
the other hand lighting is not much of an issue for you as opposed to
glass boat. You do have to go outside to use the cell phone and the GPS
won't work for beans down below.

Another issue is hard chine or fully developed sections. From what I
can see it makes no difference. Some even say they prefer the hard
chine. I think it is mostly a European vs American preference.

The thing about steel, or even aluminum, boats is that they are Gaud
awful strong. Very hard to hole the boat. A couple of years ago an
older fellow was single handing down from Nova Scotia, got beat up
beating, and called to be taken off. His boat washed up on the beach
back in Nova Scotia. By all reports she was a total wreck, because the
scavengers stripped her, but the hull was still good to go.

I saw a boat in Annapolis that had the port side all dented up and
canned in. Seems that it was an older couple who lived on their boat
for many years. They were motoring out of the harbour to lay on a
mooring happy as clams.

Then again, I saw a boat in NC that was for sale. Inside was fine but
the fore lines were all messed up. At first I thought that the boat had
hit the rocks but by all accounts she hardly ever left the berth. Seems
as though it was just nasty welding. Strong but ugly. What a shame.
Then again, I was helping a guy dock a 40 something glass cat and he
wacked the dock, not hard but firmly. I could see the hull deform and
the gel coat fracture and leave a spider web where he hit. Ouch.

I love my steel boat. Bernard Montisiour went with steel. When his
boat got caught on the hook in a storm it dragged up on the beach. Then
they dragged it off again. Other boats were a total loss. Supposedly
his losses were because of down flooding through an open or damaged
hatch. If its good enough for Montisiour that's pretty good.

Steve Lusardi wrote:
Gentlemen,
It isn't arrogance, it's knowledge. I have done this steel boat thing for 30
years. I have spent my money and done my time. I do know what I'm talking
about. How many steel boats have you built?
Steve


Any top posting fool can claim that. I have been building steel hulled
boats, as small ast 12 feet, for 86 years.

Paul Cassel wrote:
Steve Lusardi wrote:
Gentlemen,
It isn't arrogance, it's knowledge. I have done this steel boat thing
for 30 years. I have spent my money and done my time. I do know what
I'm talking about. How many steel boats have you built?
Steve


Any top posting fool can claim that...

By invoking "top posting" silliness, Paul gives away the fact that he is
really a 15 year old nerd who has never been within 100 miles of the ocean.

Being correct and arrogant is much better than being wrong and groveling.

But if one is 100% correct then how could they be arrogant?

If you find the message hitting a psychological raw nerve --- shoot the
messenger!


Jakob

Thanks everyone. Timely, concise, accurate as always.

On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 19:23:17 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Ray,
First I have a real problem with anyone responding to queries when they have
no experience or specific knowledge of the subject and yet it happens all
the time in these use groups. Out of all the responders to your query only
Ken Marino should have responded.

For the benefit of all, steel boats offer the most for the least. The very
best yachts are made from steel. There are many good reasons why that is so.
However, they do have a poor reputation with the uninformed for a few
reasons. The first is that steel boats are virtual stones and cannot get out
of their own way and that can be true IF the boat was built from a design
not specific for steel. The second is that rust is a killer and the risk
cannot be economically mitigated. This is patently untrue. It is a risk, but
very easily prevented and most importantly, very inexpensive to deal with if
it should occur. The last is ugly, yes, they can be, but they don't have to
be. Did you ever see an ugly Super yacht?

Steel boats go away from the inside. Condensation is the killer. Stop
condensation and they will last forever. I had a freind that built a 28'
steel sloop and lived on it as a university student. He had no money and
couldn't afford paint. When he graduated he sold the badly rusted boat, but
the bottom of the boat was still shiney steel. No bottom rust in 4 years in
salt water. The inside of the hull must be sprayed with insulation material.
There are a few materials that work, but not many. The first is polyurethane
foam, another is special cork based materials. All others are suspect and
due dilligence and scrutany is required. Another problem area is teak decks.
I could write a book on that subject alone. The last area to be mindful of
is dissimilar materials, potential electrolysis and the electrical wiring
system. The hull must never be electrically connected to the wiring system
in any capacity, even earth. If any of these situations are discovered
during an initial inspection, a very serious survey should be undertaken.
Hulls that have not violated these very basic rules will outlive you.
Steve

"ray lunder" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one? Thanks as always.

Paul Cassel wrote:
Steve Lusardi wrote:
Gentlemen,
It isn't arrogance, it's knowledge. I have done this steel boat thing
for 30 years. I have spent my money and done my time. I do know what
I'm talking about. How many steel boats have you built?
Steve


Any top posting fool can claim that. I have been building steel hulled
boats, as small ast 12 feet, for 86 years.

I never understood the top versus bottom posting controversy.

Even though I post at the bottom, I like top posting better because I
don't need to sift through all the messages to find the latest like you
do if the reply is at the bottom.

My guess is that you just need to call people names.

Jim wrote:


I never understood the top versus bottom posting controversy.

Even though I post at the bottom, I like top posting better because I
don't need to sift through all the messages to find the latest like you
do if the reply is at the bottom.


Jim, you're not supposed to "sift through all the messages", the poster
is supposed to cut the irrelevant bits and leave only the parts relevant
to his reply. It's like many guidelines/rules; a single rule out of
context may make no sense. Posting rules stem from day's of limited
bandwidth, but also lead to succinctness and clarity.

Cheers
Marty

"ray lunder" wrote in message
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one?

Yes, of course.
Get hull sonogram when the boat is surveyed. A surveyor who is
knowledgable about steel hulls (and you might consider a commercial/
industrial surveyor, not a yacht surveyor) will know this without
being prompted.


"Steve Lusardi" wrote:
First I have a real problem with anyone responding to queries when they have
no experience or specific knowledge of the subject and yet it happens all
the time in these use groups. Out of all the responders to your query only
Ken Marino should have responded.


So, you know everybody that might be on the internet today or in the
near future? You know all their qualifications and their sailing/
cruising history?

For the benefit of all, steel boats offer the most for the least.

No they don't. That's absurd.

.... The last is ugly, yes, they can be, but they don't have to
be. Did you ever see an ugly Super yacht?


Yes, many. Rich people can have just as poor judgement & taste in
yacht aesthetics as anybody else, and they are in position to indulge
their whims more.

However, you're correct that steel yachts don't have to be ugly.
Ranger (along with most of the J-class) was built of steel, and she
was beautiful.

Steel boats go away from the inside. Condensation is the killer.

Yep

.... The inside of the hull must be sprayed with insulation material.
There are a few materials that work, but not many. The first is polyurethane
foam, another is special cork based materials. All others are suspect and
due dilligence and scrutany is required.

*all* is suspect, even the proper materials can be installed with (or
age can create) a slight air gap that will quickly form a rust pocket.

.... Another problem area is teak decks.

Agreed again, but then I have always had heretical opinions of teak
decks since having some real experience sailing on them.


I could write a book on that subject alone.

No doubt. You've already written at least a chapter.

.... The last area to be mindful of
is dissimilar materials, potential electrolysis and the electrical wiring
system.

Yep.

Hulls that have not violated these very basic rules will outlive you.

Wrong. Maybe you're thinking of a shorter life span than most of us
would be considering reasonable? Or maybe you're one of those folks
that think the U.S. Navy doesn't know anything about steel hull
construction or maintenance, but I suggest you ask them about what the
useful hull life is. They have more experience than anybody... just
about more than everybody else combined.

Steel hulls, given the right sort of great care, can be as long-lived
as wooden boats. We don't know exactly how long, because there are
examples of wooden boats in the 200+ age range and steel ones in the
100+ age range. However you might consider the amount of expert work
they require to achieve that.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 2008-03-07 20:30:57 -0500, said:

"ray lunder" wrote in message
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one?

Yes, of course.
Get hull sonogram when the boat is surveyed. A surveyor who is
knowledgable about steel hulls (and you might consider a commercial/
industrial surveyor, not a yacht surveyor) will know this without
being prompted.

Unluckily, I had experience in an industrial setting with this.... He
reported a section of pipe as being full thickness (1/2") about a day
before it blew out. It had to be paper-thin.

Make sure the guy can *find* thin metal!

Another PITA was that all paint had to be removed before the reading
could be made.

I'm not sure a better method wouldn't be to "sound" the hull with a big
hammer, or maybe a small pickaxe.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/