Gentlemen,
It isn't arrogance, it's knowledge. I have done this steel boat thing for 30
years. I have spent my money and done my time. I do know what I'm talking
about. How many steel boats have you built?
Steve

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 22:57:30 +0100, "Robert Larder"

wrote:


"Paul Cassel" skrev i en meddelelse
m...
Steve Lusardi wrote:
Ray,
First I have a real problem with anyone responding to queries when they
have no experience or specific knowledge of the subject and yet it
happens all the time in these use groups.

Ignore this fool's post. He clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

Such arrogance- had it occured to you that he might actually know what
he`s
talking about?
Clue.... what he says is correct, so what does that make you?
Bob Larder


Paul Cassel's post couldn't hold a candle to Lusardi's for arrogance.

Steve Lusardi wrote:
Gentlemen,
It isn't arrogance, it's knowledge. I have done this steel boat thing for 30
years. I have spent my money and done my time. I do know what I'm talking
about. How many steel boats have you built?
Steve


Any top posting fool can claim that. I have been building steel hulled
boats, as small ast 12 feet, for 86 years.

Thanks everyone. Timely, concise, accurate as always.

On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 19:23:17 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Ray,
First I have a real problem with anyone responding to queries when they have
no experience or specific knowledge of the subject and yet it happens all
the time in these use groups. Out of all the responders to your query only
Ken Marino should have responded.

For the benefit of all, steel boats offer the most for the least. The very
best yachts are made from steel. There are many good reasons why that is so.
However, they do have a poor reputation with the uninformed for a few
reasons. The first is that steel boats are virtual stones and cannot get out
of their own way and that can be true IF the boat was built from a design
not specific for steel. The second is that rust is a killer and the risk
cannot be economically mitigated. This is patently untrue. It is a risk, but
very easily prevented and most importantly, very inexpensive to deal with if
it should occur. The last is ugly, yes, they can be, but they don't have to
be. Did you ever see an ugly Super yacht?

Steel boats go away from the inside. Condensation is the killer. Stop
condensation and they will last forever. I had a freind that built a 28'
steel sloop and lived on it as a university student. He had no money and
couldn't afford paint. When he graduated he sold the badly rusted boat, but
the bottom of the boat was still shiney steel. No bottom rust in 4 years in
salt water. The inside of the hull must be sprayed with insulation material.
There are a few materials that work, but not many. The first is polyurethane
foam, another is special cork based materials. All others are suspect and
due dilligence and scrutany is required. Another problem area is teak decks.
I could write a book on that subject alone. The last area to be mindful of
is dissimilar materials, potential electrolysis and the electrical wiring
system. The hull must never be electrically connected to the wiring system
in any capacity, even earth. If any of these situations are discovered
during an initial inspection, a very serious survey should be undertaken.
Hulls that have not violated these very basic rules will outlive you.
Steve

"ray lunder" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one? Thanks as always.

"ray lunder" wrote in message
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one?

Yes, of course.
Get hull sonogram when the boat is surveyed. A surveyor who is
knowledgable about steel hulls (and you might consider a commercial/
industrial surveyor, not a yacht surveyor) will know this without
being prompted.


"Steve Lusardi" wrote:
First I have a real problem with anyone responding to queries when they have
no experience or specific knowledge of the subject and yet it happens all
the time in these use groups. Out of all the responders to your query only
Ken Marino should have responded.


So, you know everybody that might be on the internet today or in the
near future? You know all their qualifications and their sailing/
cruising history?

For the benefit of all, steel boats offer the most for the least.

No they don't. That's absurd.

.... The last is ugly, yes, they can be, but they don't have to
be. Did you ever see an ugly Super yacht?


Yes, many. Rich people can have just as poor judgement & taste in
yacht aesthetics as anybody else, and they are in position to indulge
their whims more.

However, you're correct that steel yachts don't have to be ugly.
Ranger (along with most of the J-class) was built of steel, and she
was beautiful.

Steel boats go away from the inside. Condensation is the killer.

Yep

.... The inside of the hull must be sprayed with insulation material.
There are a few materials that work, but not many. The first is polyurethane
foam, another is special cork based materials. All others are suspect and
due dilligence and scrutany is required.

*all* is suspect, even the proper materials can be installed with (or
age can create) a slight air gap that will quickly form a rust pocket.

.... Another problem area is teak decks.

Agreed again, but then I have always had heretical opinions of teak
decks since having some real experience sailing on them.


I could write a book on that subject alone.

No doubt. You've already written at least a chapter.

.... The last area to be mindful of
is dissimilar materials, potential electrolysis and the electrical wiring
system.

Yep.

Hulls that have not violated these very basic rules will outlive you.

Wrong. Maybe you're thinking of a shorter life span than most of us
would be considering reasonable? Or maybe you're one of those folks
that think the U.S. Navy doesn't know anything about steel hull
construction or maintenance, but I suggest you ask them about what the
useful hull life is. They have more experience than anybody... just
about more than everybody else combined.

Steel hulls, given the right sort of great care, can be as long-lived
as wooden boats. We don't know exactly how long, because there are
examples of wooden boats in the 200+ age range and steel ones in the
100+ age range. However you might consider the amount of expert work
they require to achieve that.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 2008-03-07 20:30:57 -0500, said:

"ray lunder" wrote in message
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one?

Yes, of course.
Get hull sonogram when the boat is surveyed. A surveyor who is
knowledgable about steel hulls (and you might consider a commercial/
industrial surveyor, not a yacht surveyor) will know this without
being prompted.

Unluckily, I had experience in an industrial setting with this.... He
reported a section of pipe as being full thickness (1/2") about a day
before it blew out. It had to be paper-thin.

Make sure the guy can *find* thin metal!

Another PITA was that all paint had to be removed before the reading
could be made.

I'm not sure a better method wouldn't be to "sound" the hull with a big
hammer, or maybe a small pickaxe.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Get hull sonogram when the boat is surveyed. A surveyor who is
knowledgable about steel hulls (and you might consider a commercial/
industrial surveyor, not a yacht surveyor) will know this without
being prompted.


Jere Lull wrote:
Unluckily, I had experience in an industrial setting with this.... He
reported a section of pipe as being full thickness (1/2") about a day
before it blew out. It had to be paper-thin.


Hmmm... now that you mention it, I've known that to happen too. But
that doesn't invalidate the method.... it's technology, not magic!

Make sure the guy can *find* thin metal!

Another PITA was that all paint had to be removed before the reading
could be made.


The instruments I'm familiar with will read thru paint, but the paint
has to be bonded and uniform thickness. You have to have a test
section that is known to be sound & up to spec.

I'm not sure a better method wouldn't be to "sound" the hull with a big
hammer, or maybe a small pickaxe.


Sure. Any place it leaves a dent, you know the hull isn't thick
enough

DSK

http://www.ndt.net/article/wcndt2004...bou-khousa.htm

ray lunder wrote:
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one? Thanks as always.

I have owned one steel sailboat, and will never, ever own a steel boat
again.

The rusting just never stops.

Any injury to or failure of the corrosion protection system must be
repaired immediately and perfectly, or the rusting area will expand
rapidly and sooner or later threaten the structural integrity of the
vessel.

Despite your vigilance, some (or more often many) parts of your steel
boat, generally the most difficult areas to inspect and repair, will be
in the process of turning to rust.

My advice is to look instead for a good quality fiberglass sailboat, and
save yourself a great deal of trouble.

Unfortunately your experience provides fuel to these other responders who
actually have no experience with steel boats. I will not dispute your
experience, it happens far too often, but I must ask what effort you
expended to find expertice with steel hull corrosion? There really are
people out there that know how do deal with rust economically and
effectively. If the other casual readers of this thread think that rust is
such an insurmountable issue for steel boats, they should consider the
plagues of other lower density hull construction methods like fiberglass and
wood with fiber osmosis, rot, the lack of ability to host high load
fasteners and the cost or effectiveness of their repair.
Steve


"Moonshadow" wrote in message
...
ray lunder wrote:
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one? Thanks as always.

I have owned one steel sailboat, and will never, ever own a steel boat
again.

The rusting just never stops.

Any injury to or failure of the corrosion protection system must be
repaired immediately and perfectly, or the rusting area will expand
rapidly and sooner or later threaten the structural integrity of the
vessel.

Despite your vigilance, some (or more often many) parts of your steel
boat, generally the most difficult areas to inspect and repair, will be in
the process of turning to rust.

My advice is to look instead for a good quality fiberglass sailboat, and
save yourself a great deal of trouble.

On Mar 6, 4:01 am, ray lunder wrote:
Anyone owned a steel hulled sailboat in the 40 foot range and have
some advice on what to look for when buying one? Thanks as always.

I own a steel trawler and there is much to be learned in dealing with
metal boats. The boats of today should have been white blasted
immediately followed by multiple coats of epoxy primer before any
finish coatings and all interior areas have at least 2-3 inches of
high density foam sprayed in before building interiors. Exterior rust
is actually less important than interior rust. Many steel vessels rot
from the inside out. Then there's electrical isolation
techniques.....a whole new topic.

Overall, maintenance is somewhat higher (your labor), but not a bad
trade off in terms of vessel strength. If crossing the pond and you
happen to bang into a semi-submerged cargo container, you may get a
dent in the steel. With fiberglass, you're boat is likely to take the
Davey Jones express to the bottom.

Capt. John
http://www.blueseas.com