What do you "unlearn"?
For some racing sailors, it's difficult to relax while cruising

Rosalie B. wrote:
There's more than just relaxing unless you define relaxing as not
rushing to the destination but enjoying the journey.


Is it a matter of enjoying sailing? If an individual does not enjoy
sailing then they're not going to like cruising *or* racing. If they
do, then there is enjoyment to be found in both.

Maybe it is that they need to value sturdiness over lightness. To
pick sturdier materials.

I can tell that you're one of those "cruising only" sailors. Breaking
stuff is slow. The surest way to lose a race is to have even minor
gear failure. And racers go out to sail & race in conditions that
cruisers stay home in.


And to have spares aboard in case something
breaks, and also to have the stuff on board that one needs to live
comfortably and not feel that they are camping out.


That's not a *sailing* skill, is it? Sounds like common sense plus a
slight amount of organization.



" wrote:
Well, attitude is certainly an issue. Some people will like cruising
who don't like racing and the reverse and some will like both...
Racing and cruising are very different.

Agreed.

.... But I wasn't really thinking
about attitude as such. At least in my case the majority of my racing
was done a few hours at a time in the day with the occasional week or
10 days of day races and an an occasional fully crewed long distance
race. When I jumped into cruising full time my fist leg was from
Brisbane to Noumea and my second was Noumea to Opua. While those
aren't particularly long passages by Pacific standards they are
marathons by racing standards. Moreover, I undertook them with just
my girlfriend who was a novice sailor. Just in terms of the sailing,
the mistakes I made on those legs were a result of applying a
sprinter's skill set to a marathon. I won't bore you all with the
gory details but on the first leg I shrimped the kite and on the
second I averaged more than eleven (yes 11) sail changes a day.
Needless to say, my wallet, my psyche and my body all suffered a lot.

Hmmm.... please don't take this as an insult, because I don't mean it
to be... but your racing did not teach you to prioritize wisely.
"Getting there" is a goal for both cruising & racing, but the effort/
reward ratio is very different.


While I still set outboard sheets and barberhaulers and run the kite
on a fairly regular basis, as a result of those first two legs I
retrained myself in some pretty fundamental ways. Tweaking is fine
when it amuses, but pace and rhythm are key to passage making. The
pace and rhythm that were engraved in my brain as "sailing" from day
racing weren't just inappropriate to the kind of long distance
cruising that I took up, they were downright dangerous. And it is
that that I am thinking of when I say I had to "unlearn" racing.

Okay, that makes sense; but when you were planning the leg (which is
*certainly* a part of both racing & cruising) did you put any priority
on getting good rest? On letting the boat settle down, perhaps even
heaving-to, for meal preparation & eating? Certainly racers aren't
going to do that but then they have greater manpower available and
enjoying mealtimes isn't on the priority list. But prioritizing is
certainly a common skill!

There's also a bunch of stuff that I never learned or only thought I
knew from racing that I think are important to safe and enjoyable
cruising. That's a story for another day. But, IMO, the intersection
of day racing skills and long distance cruising skills isn't all that
big...


Day racing not so much; however I will say again that it's easy to see
the difference in skills between racers & cruisers when watching them
maneuver in close quarters (which is a pretty big part of cruising).
And point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising except that risk/effort/
reward priorities are different... and that's partly a matter of
attitude and partly a matter of realizing that it's up to you to set
your priorities in the first place.

Was it Socrates who warned against "the unexamined premise"?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote:

What do you "unlearn"?
For some racing sailors, it's difficult to relax while cruising

Rosalie B. wrote:
There's more than just relaxing unless you define relaxing as not
rushing to the destination but enjoying the journey.


Is it a matter of enjoying sailing? If an individual does not enjoy
sailing then they're not going to like cruising *or* racing. If they
do, then there is enjoyment to be found in both.

Yes enjoy sailing, but cruising doesn't really have an overabundance
of sailing in it which can be frustrating. And if the person has to
be beating someone else, then they are concentrated on the race and
not just on the sailing.

Maybe it is that they need to value sturdiness over lightness. To
pick sturdier materials.

I can tell that you're one of those "cruising only" sailors.

Well Duh. Except I'm not really a sailor or boater at all. Bob
wanted a boat, and so I come along. I do the navigation, and I know
HOW to sail the boat. And I've lived on the boat for 6 months at a
time and traveled on the boat. But I'd never call myself a sailor.
However, I was just speculating on what the difference would be going
from people I know who ARE sailors.

Breaking
stuff is slow. The surest way to lose a race is to have even minor
gear failure. And racers go out to sail & race in conditions that
cruisers stay home in.

I wouldn't agree with that. People who have our type boat are
perfectly happy in conditions that most racers and other cruisers turn
back in.

I really don't know anything about small sailboat racing except that
my niece and her husband do it, which is not much of a recommendation
to me. My niece was the one that was driving from Key West to Orlando
to meet her grandmother and family, and after lunch she turned the
wrong way and drove almost back to Key West before she noticed her
mistake.


And to have spares aboard in case something
breaks, and also to have the stuff on board that one needs to live
comfortably and not feel that they are camping out.


That's not a *sailing* skill, is it? Sounds like common sense plus a
slight amount of organization.

Most of the races that I've seen at close hand or read about, they
take everything off the boat except what they have to have on board. A
bucket rather than a head for instance.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:12:01 -0500, Rosalie B.
wrote:

I wouldn't agree with that. People who have our type boat are
perfectly happy in conditions that most racers and other cruisers turn
back in.

Boats Vary.
Passagemakers, for example, need to be good to go in nearly any
weather. Running may not be practical. Anchoring is out of the quesion
in mid Atlantic. Little land to hide behind etc etc etc.

Casady

On Mar 1, 5:37 pm, wrote:
... Hmmm.... please don't take this as an insult, because I don't mean it
to be... but your racing did not teach you to prioritize wisely.
"Getting there" is a goal for both cruising & racing, but the effort/
reward ratio is very different.

Ha! Racing taught me to win. For the racer it may be that winning
isn't everything, but losing is worse than nothing. Yes, you've gotta
finish to win and you'll note I finished those passages and quickly.
By racing standards I prioritized just fine. I've never head a racer
talk about effort/reward ratios, but if I did it would just make the
racer in me salivate. We eat the weak ones.

IMO, the intersection
of day racing skills and long distance cruising skills isn't all that
big...

Day racing not so much; however I will say again that it's easy to see
the difference in skills between racers & cruisers when watching them
maneuver in close quarters (which is a pretty big part of cruising).

A big part of cruising? Depends, I suppose. I'm a sailing addict and
I take my cruiser out day sailing and push her a bit and I take some
pride in my sailing as such. However, cruising as I practice it is
about 10% sailing and 90% hanging on the anchor... I sail more than
most cruisers I know. Maneuvering in close quarters under sail is a
pretty rare event for the typical world cruiser. Maybe it's different
for you... I get the feeling that we are talking about very different
kinds of cruising. When I was a teenager I occasionally made off with
my fathers old engineless Tartan 27 for a weekend of cruising on Lake
Ontario. I sailed it single handed on and off docks and moorings as a
matter of course. In that kind of cruising small boat handling skills
learned racing do get exercised. But that kind of sailing, neat
though it can be, is only a very small part of the universe of
cruising.

And point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising except that risk/effort/
reward priorities are different...

No. I think that's just plain wrong within the context of long range
ocean cruising. The passage making is the smallest part of the
cruising for most of us.

-- Tom.

" wrote:
By racing standards I prioritized just fine.

Apparently not. You seem to not prioritize at all. It's a question of
observing all relevant data, deciding what is going to contribute the
most to your goal (when racing, it is beating the others... what is it
when cruising?) and maximizing those factors.

For example, look at Frank & Julian Bethwaite (rather successful
racers I believe); spent a great deal of time & effort analyzing (and
then explaining in their book) exactly how to tell when wind shifts
are more important to the overall strategy of a particular race than
wind strength. It is a matter of what you prioritize.


I've never head a racer
talk about effort/reward ratios, but if I did it would just make the
racer in me salivate. We eat the weak ones.


Without setting the right priorities, you'd be far astern drooling on
yourself.




And point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising except that risk/effort/
reward priorities are different...


No. I think that's just plain wrong within the context of long range
ocean cruising. The passage making is the smallest part of the
cruising for most of us.

Did I say that racing is the same as passagemaking? Does preparation
play any part in racing? It sure does in cruising. Does study of
certain skills? Does getting the boat into the right place at the
right time (or within a reasonable time window)? How about not running
aground.... far more important in racing than cruising! Ditto for
playing the tides.

As for maneuvering in tight quarters, think for a minute. Take two!
If you leave port (or anchorage) at the beginning of every passage,
and enter port (or anchorage) at the end of every passage, that makes
maneuvering your boat around obstacles 2x as important as
passagemaking. The amount of time on passage may be much much greater,
but you maneuver twice as often.

Priorities!

DSK

Doug,

You wrote:
... point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising ...

And then you wrote:
Did I say that racing is the same as passagemaking? ...

So, yeah, I thought you were saying the cruising is the same as point-
to-point racing. And I figured the only part of cruising __as I know
it__ that could be like point to point racing is passage making. I
must have been mistook. What did you mean?

Also, since we obviously aren't talking about the same kind of
cruising, it'd be helpful to me to know what kind of cruising you're
talking about. I think an example or two of the kind of cruises
you've taken would help me understand where you're coming from on
this.

-- Tom.

You wrote:
... point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising ...
And then you wrote:
Did I say that racing is the same as passagemaking? ...

So, yeah, I thought you were saying the cruising is the same as point-
to-point racing.

Hmm... looking back, I can see where you got that impression
How about this- the skills that are rewarded in racing have a pretty
high correlation to the skills which make cruising safer and less
worrisome... as mentioned earlier, I am specifically *not* talking
about the skill of flogging a boat around bouys as quickly as possible
(which doesn't sound fun to non-racers, and they seem to have no idea
what is involved), but rather the skills which go into enabling the
sailor to do so in the first place.... preparation, prioritizing, boat-
handling, knowledge & observation of weather & wind & tide patterns,
the ability to know where the boat is going to fetch (and in what time
frame) without having to concentrate, etc etc. The thing that most
racers concentrate on most of the time... sail set & trim... is much
less important in cruising. It sounds like that was your main focus.



Also, since we obviously aren't talking about the same kind of
cruising, it'd be helpful to me to know what kind of cruising you're
talking about. I think an example or two of the kind of cruises
you've taken would help me understand where you're coming from on
this.


Mostly coastal sailing, mostly on the US East Coast although I've
sailed a lot of other places, and have done enough passagemaking to
know what it's like. Most recently my wife and I completed a Great
Loop cruise around the eastern US & Canada, and even on a tugboat the
skills I'm talking about contribute greatly to a smooth & safe cruise.

It seems likely to me that you either haven't learned the same skills
that I did from racing, or that you learned them without knowing that
you know them, and thus never learned to consciously fit them into the
big picture.
I'd be interested to know what kind of boats you raced, and what
position in the crew you held. For my own part, I've done a little of
everything but generally prefer to drive.

DSK

On Mar 4, 7:28 am, wrote:
....
How about this- the skills that are rewarded in racing have a pretty
high correlation to the skills which make cruising safer and less
worrisome...

If you were to add "while underway" somewhere in there I'd be
content.

Mostly coastal sailing, mostly on the US East Coast although I've
sailed a lot of other places, and have done enough passagemaking to
know what it's like. Most recently my wife and I completed a Great
Loop cruise around the eastern US & Canada, and even on a tugboat the
skills I'm talking about contribute greatly to a smooth & safe cruise.

Neat. I think I use my racing skills most when we are trying to get
someplace say 50-70 miles away in the daylight (generally short
tropical days) and less on longer passages. At anchor not at all.
I'm guessing that US East Coast sailing involves a larger percent of
the day hopping stuff and less of the "how many weeks have we been out
here?" stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find that played a big part
in our philosophical differences. I also have this feeling that I'm
missing some important part of your thesis. Sorry about that.

I'd be interested to know what kind of boats you raced, and what
position in the crew you held. For my own part, I've done a little of
everything but generally prefer to drive.

Yes, I can play most positions competently, too. I grew up racing the
family boats which were one designs and the usual youth stuff. I
moved on to fairly serious 470 and J-24 racing and also crewed on the
big boats. I've done some name brand ocean races and lots of PHRF
stuff. I have a "good" collection of horrible silver-plate, tatty
flags and miscellaneous trophy things...

-- Tom.

On Mar 4, 2:19 pm,
On Mar 4, 7:28 am, wrote:
...

How about this- the skills that are rewarded in racing have a pretty
high correlation to the skills which make cruising safer and less
worrisome...

" wrote:
If you were to add "while underway" somewhere in there I'd be
content.


At anchor you should be aware of windshifts & gusts, and especially
aware of upcoming changes in weather, nyet? How about tidal
currents.... the judging of which is definitely a useful racing skill
unless the particular race is on a lake
I always use a transit to judge position on starting line, and it's
the quickest & most accurate way to tell if the anchor is dragging.
Etc etc etc.


Mostly coastal sailing, mostly on the US East Coast although I've
sailed a lot of other places, and have done enough passagemaking to
know what it's like. Most recently my wife and I completed a Great
Loop cruise around the eastern US & Canada, and even on a tugboat the
skills I'm talking about contribute greatly to a smooth & safe cruise.

Neat. I think I use my racing skills most when we are trying to get
someplace say 50-70 miles away in the daylight (generally short
tropical days) and less on longer passages. At anchor not at all.

Oh, I bet you use them more than you think (see above).
The difference is, in a race there is quick and sure feedback on how
accurate your judgements are, strong motivation, and teachers at the
ready. In cruising, it is difficult to learn for many reasons and
there is sort of a pass/fail threshold with no real reward other than
continued peace & relaxation.

I think this is one reason why sailing is a less popular sport in the
US, it takes too much "paying attention." People would rather play
video games.



I'm guessing that US East Coast sailing involves a larger percent of
the day hopping stuff and less of the "how many weeks have we been out
here?" stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find that played a big part
in our philosophical differences. I also have this feeling that I'm
missing some important part of your thesis. Sorry about that.


Sorry to have not explained things better sooner. Plus I don't have
much internet time these days and have made more errors than usual...
due to hurrying, maybe

I'd be interested to know what kind of boats you raced, and what
position in the crew you held. For my own part, I've done a little of
everything but generally prefer to drive.

Yes, I can play most positions competently, too. I grew up racing the
family boats which were one designs and the usual youth stuff. I
moved on to fairly serious 470 and J-24 racing and also crewed on the
big boats. I've done some name brand ocean races and lots of PHRF
stuff. I have a "good" collection of horrible silver-plate, tatty
flags and miscellaneous trophy things...


Sounds like a lot of fun. I raced 470s a long time ago, got in some
very fun races with some of the big names... I noticed Dave Ullman is
kicking butt in Melges 24s these days.

DSK