On Feb 10, 10:46 pm, "Bill Kearney" wrote:
Try paying for some lessons for her. It'll make a world of difference.

Without you being present. Get her to bring another girlfriend along. Let
them learn at their own pace from someone that's being paid to do it.

Don't try and teach her yourself. You're too involved emotionally.

Words like "control freak" and "divorce" seem applicable here.

Just how much good is it going to do for your relationship with your wife to
get so utterly freaked out about it? If she's not grasping it, well, what's
that saying? Is it saying she's dumb as a stone? I'm not guessing
discussing it that way is going to lead in productive directions. Or is it
that she just hates your attitude and is deliberately doing a bad job of it?
My guess is somewhere in between the two.

But hey, you picked her, so you're going to have to take a new tack at
dealing with her sailing skills... or suffer the consequences.

She has numerous good qualities but unfortunately sailing ability isnt
one of em. I strongly suspect she just does not "connect" to it right
because she wants to use the time to socialize and talk to the kids
and do all the stuff she would be doing if she wasnt steering. I also
think that learning the numerous other things like knots simply is not
important to her although she says it is. I believe it would be best
if she simply came along for the ride and did not try to do anything
at all.
Oddly, she isnt a bad driver in a car but the two do not seem to cross
over for her. She has had sailing lessons from someone else but it
just didnt "take". She is the control freak in our relationship so
she insists on being able to steer in spite of not being able to do it
at all.
Later, after the jibe, she insisted on staying at the helm and she
wanted to get back before dark and wanted me to start the engine
because we were doing only 3.5 kts by the GPS. I replied that I had
been doing 5.5 a few minutes before and the problem would be apparent
if she looked at our wake. The wake was an incredible zigzag so the
boat could build no momentum and even the engine wouldnt help if she
was steered so erratically. A few minutes later she went below
because it got cold leaving me to steer. Soon, we were back up to
nearly 6 kts. Of course, it was pretty cold at home last night
too.........

Bill's spot on.

Some suggestions:
get her out from BEHIND the steering wheel. Show her how to sit on the
SIDE so she (any maybe yourself) can clearly SEE the foresail ....
maybe even putting on a sequential ROW of 'steering telltales' on the
jib/genoa. The 'steering tales' are a long row of 6" long telltales
that start at the luff and run back for about 6-8ft. from the luff and
about 8 ft. above the deck - then she can SEE when the sail is
stalling or is developing a separation bubble. Then, she will SEE the
relationship between the sail's angle of attack and the angle of the
helm.

If you want your wife to better like sailing .... get some of her
sailing girlfriends to take her out on your boat - YOU stay on the
shore !!!!

Don't try and teach her yourself. You're too involved emotionally.

Well, several issues here, not just emotional involvement. It's been
well demonstrated in *many* fields that rather few husbands can make a
success of teaching his wife a complex task.


"Bill Kearney" wrote:
Words like "control freak" and "divorce" seem applicable here.


Maybe. No point in being judgemental.... though I take your point to
be that the OP should back off.


Just how much good is it going to do for your relationship with your wife to
get so utterly freaked out about it? If she's not grasping it, well, what's
that saying? Is it saying she's dumb as a stone? I'm not guessing
discussing it that way is going to lead in productive directions. Or is it
that she just hates your attitude and is deliberately doing a bad job of it?
My guess is somewhere in between the two.


Actually, the latter is very common for both husbands & wives. The
spouse really really wants to do something, and one or the other
insists it be a "couples" activity, and the one who did not bring them
into the situation sabotages it... often subconsciously. Happens in
everything from shopping for houses to raising kids, and of course
sailing/cruising.


But hey, you picked her, so you're going to have to take a new tack at
dealing with her sailing skills... or suffer the consequences.

groan

wrote:
She has numerous good qualities but unfortunately sailing ability isnt
one of em.

Well, my advice is focus on the positive.

Oddly, she isnt a bad driver in a car but the two do not seem to cross
over for her.

Why would it? Driving a car is *nothing* like sailing. In fact, making
the connection rather raises my suspicion of your own sailing skills.


.... She is the control freak in our relationship so
she insists on being able to steer in spite of not being able to do it
at all.

Here's the problem- she thinks she's doing fine. The first and
foremost task for *any* teacher is to convince the student that he has
something to learn. Until you get over this bump, the rest will
assuredly not follow. The problem here is to convince her that she is
not a good helmsperson without seeming like a tyrannical jerk.

This has been easy for me, since most of my teaching of sailing was
done either in conjunction or in close proximity to one-design racing.
When another boat is passing you, it is absolutely, unarguably, &
quantifiably being steered better..


Later, after the jibe, she insisted on staying at the helm and she
wanted to get back before dark and wanted me to start the engine
because we were doing only 3.5 kts by the GPS. I replied that I had
been doing 5.5 a few minutes before and the problem would be apparent
if she looked at our wake. The wake was an incredible zigzag so the
boat could build no momentum and even the engine wouldnt help if she
was steered so erratically.

Just get the kids to yell "Snake Wake! Snake Wake" when they see her
zig-zagging.

Actually the best technique I know of to teach a person to steer by
reflex is to give them quick & certain feedback. With a tiller boat,
you can tap their hand on the back, towards the side they need to move
the tiller. With a wheel, tap one of the spokes toward where they
should turn. Or some similar system of quick & clear feedback, such
that the student can keep looking at where the boat is going and not
at the instructor or at the helm itself.

Another option is to turn her loose on a Laser some afternoon when the
wind is not too light or too strong. She'll learn... it will be the
only way to make it back to the beach and/or dock! Motivation is key!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote in message
...
Don't try and teach her yourself. You're too involved emotionally.

Well, several issues here, not just emotional involvement. It's been
well demonstrated in *many* fields that rather few husbands can make a
success of teaching his wife a complex task.


It is a complex task, but in my view it's a complex task based on the
emotional content of the relationship. A spouse tends to think that the
other person can read his/her thoughts or something along those lines.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Another option is to turn her loose on a Laser some afternoon when the
wind is not too light or too strong. She'll learn... it will be the
only way to make it back to the beach and/or dock! Motivation is key!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Good post Doug !!!!! Has lots of merit.

My wife rapidly learned when I encouraged she go out on a small one
design all by herself (my complicated racing scow with 33 control
lines !!!!) ... and when the 'questions' from her started in earnest I
knew that she was 'sold' on sailing.
She now can helm our boats in any big-boat race and with precision
that would match the best of well experienced helmsmen.
We leave on a 2-3 year 'journey' on our boat this fall .... primarily
her idea !!!!!

Just remember if YOUR sailing skills arent (honestly) that good there
will be many unnecessary 'conflicts' --- get her into lessons or get
her off by herself in a small sailing dinghy ..... if you want a
'partner'. Motivate, communicate, appreciate ...... otherwise you
simply wont have a boat very long ... or wont have that wife very
long.
;-)

RichH wrote:
My wife rapidly learned when I encouraged she go out on a small one
design all by herself (my complicated racing scow with 33 control
lines !!!!) ... and when the 'questions' from her started in earnest I
knew that she was 'sold' on sailing.

My wife & I raced a Lightning together for years, and her skills &
confidence grew tremendously... one of the difficulties we had was the
she was often solicited to crew for other teams! She occasionally
skippered the boat in races but the main lesson gained from this was
1- she *can* do it but 2- she's not as good as I and would rather
place well (while insisting she's 'not competitive by nature')

I have felt very comfortable with my wife skippering cruising boats.

She now can helm our boats in any big-boat race and with precision
that would match the best of well experienced helmsmen.
We leave on a 2-3 year 'journey' on our boat this fall .... primarily
her idea !!!!!


Excellent work! I am looking forward to seeing posts of your cruising
adventures.

Just remember if YOUR sailing skills arent (honestly) that good there
will be many unnecessary 'conflicts' --- get her into lessons or get
her off by herself in a small sailing dinghy ..... if you want a
'partner'. Motivate, communicate, appreciate ...... otherwise you
simply wont have a boat very long ... or wont have that wife very
long.
;-)

It looks like they've muddled along OK for quite some time, but with
large amounts of friction. Getting rid of the friction is a worthy
goal. I wish I had some sure & simple way of achieving it. A mother/
daughter sailing weekend sounds like it could be a good idea... maybe
on a chartered boat

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Feb 12, 6:00 pm, Gogarty wrote:
Back when we were growing up in Marblehead, Mass., and sailing at young
ages, we thought the worst thing that could happen to a man would be to
marry a woman who did not like sailing. Theh we discovered sex. But now
after many years we have all gone back to the original opinion.

A little background:

Married 28 yrs, 3 kids, 21, 17 and 11. Been sailing for 20 yrs. She
is the touchy-feely type with degrees in education and counseling and
I am the analytic type MS Physics and MSEE so you can imagine how well
this works. She likes to sail for the aesthetics whereas I like to
sail for the problem solving aspects. She clearly cannot concentrate
on steering and will never understand how the sails work. She claims
that having something on shore to use as a mark helps her but I have
not noticed this and often we are simply too far out so it is either
steer by the compass or by feel of the tiller or watch the sails and
she can do none of these because she is tuned in to watching the
people aboard as you would expect. Unfortunately, she wants to steer
and always wants me to explain how to do things I have taught her
dozens of times in the past (knots, using the VHF, using the compass,
etc.). I lost patience with teaching her a long time ago.
My 21 yr old daughter is a biology major so is technical enough to
understand things and even my 11 yr old daughter grasps things so fast
it amazes me. Saturday she casually remarked we would need a course of
310 (our reciprocal) to get back to our channel.. I can count on them
when I need them whereas I cannot count on my wife to do what needs to
be done in a hurry. If I tell my 11 yr old daughter to hold the boat
into the wind while I drop the main she does it whereas my wife is
unable to do so. I don't know why.
Weirdly, my son is just like my wife and is incapable of doing even
the most basic things (would impale himself on a screwdriver) although
he is always Mr Popularity and he is an alien to me.
I do most of my sailing alone but I see other families sailing and
really want this to work for us. Unfortunately, I cannot count on my
wife and am actually much safer sailing alone or with the kids and
myself. Sailing with her is like sailing single handed but with one
arm tied behind me. I have tried getting her to sail small boats by
herself but she doesn't like them (surely a sign of something).
So, how do other sailors deal with sailing with an inept spouse when
it is clear that NOTHING will help the situation? Is this simply a
case of "Some people don't belong on boats"?

wrote:
On Feb 12, 6:00 pm, Gogarty wrote:
Back when we were growing up in Marblehead, Mass., and sailing at young
ages, we thought the worst thing that could happen to a man would be to
marry a woman who did not like sailing. Theh we discovered sex. But now
after many years we have all gone back to the original opinion.

A little background:

Married 28 yrs, 3 kids, 21, 17 and 11. Been sailing for 20 yrs. She
is the touchy-feely type with degrees in education and counseling and
I am the analytic type MS Physics and MSEE so you can imagine how well
this works. She likes to sail for the aesthetics whereas I like to
sail for the problem solving aspects. She clearly cannot concentrate
on steering and will never understand how the sails work. She claims
that having something on shore to use as a mark helps her but I have
not noticed this and often we are simply too far out so it is either
steer by the compass or by feel of the tiller or watch the sails and
she can do none of these because she is tuned in to watching the
people aboard as you would expect. Unfortunately, she wants to steer
and always wants me to explain how to do things I have taught her
dozens of times in the past (knots, using the VHF, using the compass,
etc.). I lost patience with teaching her a long time ago.
My 21 yr old daughter is a biology major so is technical enough to
understand things and even my 11 yr old daughter grasps things so fast
it amazes me. Saturday she casually remarked we would need a course of
310 (our reciprocal) to get back to our channel.. I can count on them
when I need them whereas I cannot count on my wife to do what needs to
be done in a hurry. If I tell my 11 yr old daughter to hold the boat
into the wind while I drop the main she does it whereas my wife is
unable to do so. I don't know why.
Weirdly, my son is just like my wife and is incapable of doing even
the most basic things (would impale himself on a screwdriver) although
he is always Mr Popularity and he is an alien to me.
I do most of my sailing alone but I see other families sailing and
really want this to work for us. Unfortunately, I cannot count on my
wife and am actually much safer sailing alone or with the kids and
myself. Sailing with her is like sailing single handed but with one
arm tied behind me. I have tried getting her to sail small boats by
herself but she doesn't like them (surely a sign of something).
So, how do other sailors deal with sailing with an inept spouse when
it is clear that NOTHING will help the situation? Is this simply a
case of "Some people don't belong on boats"?


If she understood how she is putting others at risk (can you two
communicat?) and if she had other things to do (like socialize) why
would she insist upon taking the helm? Is she still putting everyone at
risk just sitting their enjoying the aesthetics? Why does she have to be
banned from the boat entirely?

Stephen

On Feb 12, 8:29 pm, Stephen Trapani wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 12, 6:00 pm, Gogarty wrote:
Back when we were growing up in Marblehead, Mass., and sailing at young
ages, we thought the worst thing that could happen to a man would be to
marry a woman who did not like sailing. Theh we discovered sex. But now
after many years we have all gone back to the original opinion.

A little background:

Married 28 yrs, 3 kids, 21, 17 and 11. Been sailing for 20 yrs. She
is the touchy-feely type with degrees in education and counseling and
I am the analytic type MS Physics and MSEE so you can imagine how well
this works. She likes to sail for the aesthetics whereas I like to
sail for the problem solving aspects. She clearly cannot concentrate
on steering and will never understand how the sails work. She claims
that having something on shore to use as a mark helps her but I have
not noticed this and often we are simply too far out so it is either
steer by the compass or by feel of the tiller or watch the sails and
she can do none of these because she is tuned in to watching the
people aboard as you would expect. Unfortunately, she wants to steer
and always wants me to explain how to do things I have taught her
dozens of times in the past (knots, using the VHF, using the compass,
etc.). I lost patience with teaching her a long time ago.
My 21 yr old daughter is a biology major so is technical enough to
understand things and even my 11 yr old daughter grasps things so fast
it amazes me. Saturday she casually remarked we would need a course of
310 (our reciprocal) to get back to our channel.. I can count on them
when I need them whereas I cannot count on my wife to do what needs to
be done in a hurry. If I tell my 11 yr old daughter to hold the boat
into the wind while I drop the main she does it whereas my wife is
unable to do so. I don't know why.
Weirdly, my son is just like my wife and is incapable of doing even
the most basic things (would impale himself on a screwdriver) although
he is always Mr Popularity and he is an alien to me.
I do most of my sailing alone but I see other families sailing and
really want this to work for us. Unfortunately, I cannot count on my
wife and am actually much safer sailing alone or with the kids and
myself. Sailing with her is like sailing single handed but with one
arm tied behind me. I have tried getting her to sail small boats by
herself but she doesn't like them (surely a sign of something).
So, how do other sailors deal with sailing with an inept spouse when
it is clear that NOTHING will help the situation? Is this simply a
case of "Some people don't belong on boats"?

If she understood how she is putting others at risk (can you two
communicat?) and if she had other things to do (like socialize) why
would she insist upon taking the helm? Is she still putting everyone at
risk just sitting their enjoying the aesthetics? Why does she have to be
banned from the boat entirely?

Stephen

OTOH, she has her good qualities. On Saturday, she looked at the
tattered 20 yr old Bimini and said "You really ought to buy a new
one". How can you be too angry with a wife who APPROVES of you
spending money on the boat? OTOH, she then said "Then we could have
more friends sail with us because it would be more comfortable".
That's all I need, more people aboard to interfere with sailing and to
distract her when she insists on steering.

wrote:

On Feb 12, 8:29 pm, Stephen Trapani wrote:

wrote:

On Feb 12, 6:00 pm, Gogarty wrote:

Back when we were growing up in Marblehead, Mass., and sailing at young
ages, we thought the worst thing that could happen to a man would be to
marry a woman who did not like sailing. Theh we discovered sex. But now
after many years we have all gone back to the original opinion.

A little background:

Married 28 yrs, 3 kids, 21, 17 and 11. Been sailing for 20 yrs. She
is the touchy-feely type with degrees in education and counseling and
I am the analytic type MS Physics and MSEE so you can imagine how well
this works. She likes to sail for the aesthetics whereas I like to
sail for the problem solving aspects. She clearly cannot concentrate
on steering and will never understand how the sails work. She claims
that having something on shore to use as a mark helps her but I have
not noticed this and often we are simply too far out so it is either
steer by the compass or by feel of the tiller or watch the sails and
she can do none of these because she is tuned in to watching the
people aboard as you would expect. Unfortunately, she wants to steer
and always wants me to explain how to do things I have taught her
dozens of times in the past (knots, using the VHF, using the compass,
etc.). I lost patience with teaching her a long time ago.
My 21 yr old daughter is a biology major so is technical enough to
understand things and even my 11 yr old daughter grasps things so fast
it amazes me. Saturday she casually remarked we would need a course of
310 (our reciprocal) to get back to our channel.. I can count on them
when I need them whereas I cannot count on my wife to do what needs to
be done in a hurry. If I tell my 11 yr old daughter to hold the boat
into the wind while I drop the main she does it whereas my wife is
unable to do so. I don't know why.
Weirdly, my son is just like my wife and is incapable of doing even
the most basic things (would impale himself on a screwdriver) although
he is always Mr Popularity and he is an alien to me.
I do most of my sailing alone but I see other families sailing and
really want this to work for us. Unfortunately, I cannot count on my
wife and am actually much safer sailing alone or with the kids and
myself. Sailing with her is like sailing single handed but with one
arm tied behind me. I have tried getting her to sail small boats by
herself but she doesn't like them (surely a sign of something).
So, how do other sailors deal with sailing with an inept spouse when
it is clear that NOTHING will help the situation? Is this simply a
case of "Some people don't belong on boats"?

If she understood how she is putting others at risk (can you two
communicat?) and if she had other things to do (like socialize) why
would she insist upon taking the helm? Is she still putting everyone at
risk just sitting their enjoying the aesthetics? Why does she have to be
banned from the boat entirely?

Stephen


OTOH, she has her good qualities. On Saturday, she looked at the
tattered 20 yr old Bimini and said "You really ought to buy a new
one". How can you be too angry with a wife who APPROVES of you
spending money on the boat? OTOH, she then said "Then we could have
more friends sail with us because it would be more comfortable".
That's all I need, more people aboard to interfere with sailing and to
distract her when she insists on steering.

I have a similar problem just canoeing with the GF. Finally solved by
telling her to "just sit there and look cute; *I'll* handle the boat".

DT