|
Offshore cruiser questions
"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message ... You will learn to sail fastest in a boat barely big enough to hold you. That is because you will feel the effect of everything you do very soon. Yah, I've got a 17' Hobie Cat now- very fast, very twitchy. It's the sport model, with no jib, but it's loads of fun. I've learned a lot on it ("how to upright your catmaran" was the first lesson :) I'd just like to step up to something a bit more serious. Wendy |
Offshore cruiser questions
Wendy, you will do fine. btw, I crewed on a boat owned by a Navy pilot and it
turned out all the rest of the crew had flying experience as well. Owner never said he chose crew for flying experience, but it seems likely. flying skills are mostly different from sailing skills (nav, as you said is much the same), but the talent necessary to do either is the same. Good sailors as well as good flyers have excellent coordination, can sense when things have changed, notice a 50 rpm increase of decrease in the engine, hear the difference in sounds of the air with tiny changes in speed, understand weather (pilots probably far more so than sailors), keep their eyes open and don't do dumb things, to name just a few. That you don't have the "muscle memory" for sailing yet doesn't mean you won't get it. You will, and probably quite quickly. Besides, the VAST majority of sailing is under pretty benign conditions, even more so with good planning. Lin and Larry Pardy say in all thei years on the water they have seen really nasty conditions only about 1 day in a hundred, and Lin says the only time they got knocked down was the time she (she takes blames for the decision, as apparently she does most of the navigation planning) felt they were pushing their luck a bit leaving port when they did, but they were getting a little cocky. (Sorta like the pilot who takes off with ceilings at 2,000 feet and lowering who convinces himself the cover will break up). Lin Pardy's voyage planning is so thorough she and Larry sailed from South Africa to Brazil (across that nasty piece of water called the South Atlantic) and never saw winds above 25 knots. flying story: my baby bro when learning to fly had his instructor tell him of a flight the instructor made in known icing condition, the plane gradually getting heavier, the carb heat on full and the rpm dropping. The guy landed on a short, unused runway of an abandoned airport (freeway had been built through it), let the engine run until the carb ice melted while he banged the ice off the wings with a gloved hand, then took off again to continue his flight. My brother's flight instructor, on a training flight, told him that. Go figure. Wendy, you will be fine. And remember what what Chuck Yeager said about "widow-maker" airplanes, i.e. everytime you hear a pilot talk about one you know you are talking with a pilot who will soon tell you that *he* successfully flew that dangerously wicked aircraft. [grin] same in sailing, except the doom and gloom sailors haven't sailed beyond the breakwater. |
Offshore cruiser questions
Wendy, you will do fine. btw, I crewed on a boat owned by a Navy pilot and it
turned out all the rest of the crew had flying experience as well. Owner never said he chose crew for flying experience, but it seems likely. flying skills are mostly different from sailing skills (nav, as you said is much the same), but the talent necessary to do either is the same. Good sailors as well as good flyers have excellent coordination, can sense when things have changed, notice a 50 rpm increase of decrease in the engine, hear the difference in sounds of the air with tiny changes in speed, understand weather (pilots probably far more so than sailors), keep their eyes open and don't do dumb things, to name just a few. That you don't have the "muscle memory" for sailing yet doesn't mean you won't get it. You will, and probably quite quickly. Besides, the VAST majority of sailing is under pretty benign conditions, even more so with good planning. Lin and Larry Pardy say in all thei years on the water they have seen really nasty conditions only about 1 day in a hundred, and Lin says the only time they got knocked down was the time she (she takes blames for the decision, as apparently she does most of the navigation planning) felt they were pushing their luck a bit leaving port when they did, but they were getting a little cocky. (Sorta like the pilot who takes off with ceilings at 2,000 feet and lowering who convinces himself the cover will break up). Lin Pardy's voyage planning is so thorough she and Larry sailed from South Africa to Brazil (across that nasty piece of water called the South Atlantic) and never saw winds above 25 knots. flying story: my baby bro when learning to fly had his instructor tell him of a flight the instructor made in known icing condition, the plane gradually getting heavier, the carb heat on full and the rpm dropping. The guy landed on a short, unused runway of an abandoned airport (freeway had been built through it), let the engine run until the carb ice melted while he banged the ice off the wings with a gloved hand, then took off again to continue his flight. My brother's flight instructor, on a training flight, told him that. Go figure. Wendy, you will be fine. And remember what what Chuck Yeager said about "widow-maker" airplanes, i.e. everytime you hear a pilot talk about one you know you are talking with a pilot who will soon tell you that *he* successfully flew that dangerously wicked aircraft. [grin] same in sailing, except the doom and gloom sailors haven't sailed beyond the breakwater. |
Offshore cruiser questions
I agree with Evan's view of John Neal's site. I also agree with John Vigor's
"20 Small Sailboats To Take You Anywhere" (boats 20 feet to 33 feet, all of which have made long ocean passages, the only clinker in the group being a Catalina 27, included simply because one had circumnavigated). John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Offshore cruiser questions
I agree with Evan's view of John Neal's site. I also agree with John Vigor's
"20 Small Sailboats To Take You Anywhere" (boats 20 feet to 33 feet, all of which have made long ocean passages, the only clinker in the group being a Catalina 27, included simply because one had circumnavigated). John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Offshore cruiser questions
no, Ken you are not going to get flamed. the idgit rhys got flamed for trying
his damnest to get Wendy to buy a 30 foot to 40 foot center cockpit boat (a mess of an offshore boat if there ever was one), "so she could see out of the cockpit better". Small point, but rhys doesn't have a centre cockpit boat and didn't say he did. He does have an Ontario Viking 33, an older C&C design with an aft cockpit. He did say he has a friend with a centre cockpit. I suppose I'm about to get flamed for pointing out the obvious... -- Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin Cape Breton Island, Canada kenheaton AT ess wye dee DOT eastlink DOT ca |
Offshore cruiser questions
no, Ken you are not going to get flamed. the idgit rhys got flamed for trying
his damnest to get Wendy to buy a 30 foot to 40 foot center cockpit boat (a mess of an offshore boat if there ever was one), "so she could see out of the cockpit better". Small point, but rhys doesn't have a centre cockpit boat and didn't say he did. He does have an Ontario Viking 33, an older C&C design with an aft cockpit. He did say he has a friend with a centre cockpit. I suppose I'm about to get flamed for pointing out the obvious... -- Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin Cape Breton Island, Canada kenheaton AT ess wye dee DOT eastlink DOT ca |
Offshore cruiser questions
x-no-archive:yes
"Wendy" wrote: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... btw, rhys, have *you* ever purposely spun an airplane?(indeed, do you even know how?) Wendy has, for the fun of it. She will do just fine as a sailor. Flying is flying, and sailing is sailing. I think they are two different and distinct skill sets, and proficiency in one will not necessarily indicate proficiency in the other, navigation notwithsanding. While events occur much more rapidly in an airplane than in a boat, what is more important is that the dimensional and situational aspects are completely different, and thus require different skill sets. I can fly. I can't sail- haven't got a clue what to do when decision time rolls around as regards reefing, what sail to set, etc. The fact that I was able to learn how to fly indicates that I might be able to learn how to sail. No more, no less. THe people that are out here are often ex-pilots or even current pilots. It is really a bit surprising how many sailors have been or are pilots. Bob (my husband) is one, but I can name about 15 others without thinking very hard and that's just among the CSY owners. (Bob was a Navy pilot flying S3s (off a carrier), and he went to TPS and did two tours with a T&E squadron). He also had considerable power boating experience as a teen ager (I dated him during those years), and he learned to sale the USNA yawls when he was there, and was instantly converted to a sailor. grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html |
Offshore cruiser questions
x-no-archive:yes
"Wendy" wrote: "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... btw, rhys, have *you* ever purposely spun an airplane?(indeed, do you even know how?) Wendy has, for the fun of it. She will do just fine as a sailor. Flying is flying, and sailing is sailing. I think they are two different and distinct skill sets, and proficiency in one will not necessarily indicate proficiency in the other, navigation notwithsanding. While events occur much more rapidly in an airplane than in a boat, what is more important is that the dimensional and situational aspects are completely different, and thus require different skill sets. I can fly. I can't sail- haven't got a clue what to do when decision time rolls around as regards reefing, what sail to set, etc. The fact that I was able to learn how to fly indicates that I might be able to learn how to sail. No more, no less. THe people that are out here are often ex-pilots or even current pilots. It is really a bit surprising how many sailors have been or are pilots. Bob (my husband) is one, but I can name about 15 others without thinking very hard and that's just among the CSY owners. (Bob was a Navy pilot flying S3s (off a carrier), and he went to TPS and did two tours with a T&E squadron). He also had considerable power boating experience as a teen ager (I dated him during those years), and he learned to sale the USNA yawls when he was there, and was instantly converted to a sailor. grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html |
Offshore cruiser questions
Hmmmm,
Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG Evan Gatehouse wrote: "Wendy" wrote in message rvers.com... Hi- I'm new to this group, and while I have done some archive digging I have a few questions I was hoping I might get some answers to. Specifically, I am interested in a sailboat in the 35'-40' range that is suitable for serious offshore work to include transatlantic crossings. The boat should be easy to sail, obviously well-built, preferably sloop-rigged, and (here's the catch!) around $80,000 or so. I would live aboard the boat- I'm single with no kids- while building up a cruising kitty. I am going to look at a 1990 34' Pacific Seacraft this weekend; at $99,000 it is more than I would like to pay but perhaps it's negotiable. There is also a 1985 Cheoy Lee Pedrick 36 (yes, I know about the teak decks) at $60,000 that has caught my eye. Obviously one gets what one pays for, and the Seacraft is no doubt the better boat, but is the Cheoy Lee suitable for serious passages? I know Westsail is a definite possibility, but what other boats should I consider based on my plans and price range? http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
Hmmmm,
Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG Evan Gatehouse wrote: "Wendy" wrote in message rvers.com... Hi- I'm new to this group, and while I have done some archive digging I have a few questions I was hoping I might get some answers to. Specifically, I am interested in a sailboat in the 35'-40' range that is suitable for serious offshore work to include transatlantic crossings. The boat should be easy to sail, obviously well-built, preferably sloop-rigged, and (here's the catch!) around $80,000 or so. I would live aboard the boat- I'm single with no kids- while building up a cruising kitty. I am going to look at a 1990 34' Pacific Seacraft this weekend; at $99,000 it is more than I would like to pay but perhaps it's negotiable. There is also a 1985 Cheoy Lee Pedrick 36 (yes, I know about the teak decks) at $60,000 that has caught my eye. Obviously one gets what one pays for, and the Seacraft is no doubt the better boat, but is the Cheoy Lee suitable for serious passages? I know Westsail is a definite possibility, but what other boats should I consider based on my plans and price range? http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which
makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG Evan Gatehouse wrote: "Wendy" wrote in message ervers.com... Hi- I'm new to this group, and while I have done some archive digging I have a few questions I was hoping I might get some answers to. Specifically, I am interested in a sailboat in the 35'-40' range that is suitable for serious offshore work to include transatlantic crossings. The boat should be easy to sail, obviously well-built, preferably sloop-rigged, and (here's the catch!) around $80,000 or so. I would live aboard the boat- I'm single with no kids- while building up a cruising kitty. I am going to look at a 1990 34' Pacific Seacraft this weekend; at $99,000 it is more than I would like to pay but perhaps it's negotiable. There is also a 1985 Cheoy Lee Pedrick 36 (yes, I know about the teak decks) at $60,000 that has caught my eye. Obviously one gets what one pays for, and the Seacraft is no doubt the better boat, but is the Cheoy Lee suitable for serious passages? I know Westsail is a definite possibility, but what other boats should I consider based on my plans and price range? http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which
makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG Evan Gatehouse wrote: "Wendy" wrote in message ervers.com... Hi- I'm new to this group, and while I have done some archive digging I have a few questions I was hoping I might get some answers to. Specifically, I am interested in a sailboat in the 35'-40' range that is suitable for serious offshore work to include transatlantic crossings. The boat should be easy to sail, obviously well-built, preferably sloop-rigged, and (here's the catch!) around $80,000 or so. I would live aboard the boat- I'm single with no kids- while building up a cruising kitty. I am going to look at a 1990 34' Pacific Seacraft this weekend; at $99,000 it is more than I would like to pay but perhaps it's negotiable. There is also a 1985 Cheoy Lee Pedrick 36 (yes, I know about the teak decks) at $60,000 that has caught my eye. Obviously one gets what one pays for, and the Seacraft is no doubt the better boat, but is the Cheoy Lee suitable for serious passages? I know Westsail is a definite possibility, but what other boats should I consider based on my plans and price range? http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
No, The Tayana is not the ideal boat for everybody (shhhhh, don't let
the those on the Tayana listserver know I said that). And your points are accurate. It is a bit more tender than the "perfect" boat, but under sail, I'd have to disagree with you about it being rolly (though under power, you're right). Under sail, it finds an angle of heel and just locks into it. We still get the for and aft rocking and vertical heave, but almost no roll component of motion. Also, with it's full (cutaway forefoot) keel, it tracks like it's on rails. So well that I can read while hand steering - just glance up every couple of sentences and perhaps adjust the wheel an inch, and remember to check the horizon every page or so. Since our previous boat was a Catalina 30 which required constant vigilance on the helm, I really love the way it handles. I can even let go of the helm and go up on the foredeck to fiddle with something and when I get back to the helm, we're no more than 10 degrees or so off course. The down side to this is maneuvering around the docks. In the Catalina, when we got to the slip we just turned into it. To say you have plan the same turn in the Tayana is an understatement. We've had the boat two years now, and while I've never crashed it into the dock or my dock neighbors boat (our marina only has fingers every other boat), entering the slip is something that raises my blood pressure a tad. We were also pleasantly surprised with its' performance - though you've gotta remember what our last boat was. When we've got some wind, we now comfortably cruise for hours without stressing anything at the same speeds that were "balls to the wall and pray nothing breaks" on the Catalina (7.5 - 8.5 kt). For those that enjoy this style of cruising boat, the Tayana is an excellent example of it. I could go on and on, but I'm beginning to sound like an evangelist. Almost as bad as when the subject of Porta-Botes comes up ;-) Take care - Dan JAXAshby wrote: The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
No, The Tayana is not the ideal boat for everybody (shhhhh, don't let
the those on the Tayana listserver know I said that). And your points are accurate. It is a bit more tender than the "perfect" boat, but under sail, I'd have to disagree with you about it being rolly (though under power, you're right). Under sail, it finds an angle of heel and just locks into it. We still get the for and aft rocking and vertical heave, but almost no roll component of motion. Also, with it's full (cutaway forefoot) keel, it tracks like it's on rails. So well that I can read while hand steering - just glance up every couple of sentences and perhaps adjust the wheel an inch, and remember to check the horizon every page or so. Since our previous boat was a Catalina 30 which required constant vigilance on the helm, I really love the way it handles. I can even let go of the helm and go up on the foredeck to fiddle with something and when I get back to the helm, we're no more than 10 degrees or so off course. The down side to this is maneuvering around the docks. In the Catalina, when we got to the slip we just turned into it. To say you have plan the same turn in the Tayana is an understatement. We've had the boat two years now, and while I've never crashed it into the dock or my dock neighbors boat (our marina only has fingers every other boat), entering the slip is something that raises my blood pressure a tad. We were also pleasantly surprised with its' performance - though you've gotta remember what our last boat was. When we've got some wind, we now comfortably cruise for hours without stressing anything at the same speeds that were "balls to the wall and pray nothing breaks" on the Catalina (7.5 - 8.5 kt). For those that enjoy this style of cruising boat, the Tayana is an excellent example of it. I could go on and on, but I'm beginning to sound like an evangelist. Almost as bad as when the subject of Porta-Botes comes up ;-) Take care - Dan JAXAshby wrote: The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
I do agree with all of Dans comments about the helm stability of a
TY37. Ill also add that with the autopilot disengaged, Ive occasionally fallen asleep behind the wheel of my TY37 because it does track so well. Tayana 37 specific info (and probably applies to most cutter rigged boats in general) --- There is an apparent misunderstanding about the staysail trim on a staysail rigged boat that defies comprehension and is usually overlooked. Most of the sail set recommendations are derived from sloop rigged boats. Even Robert Perrry, the designer of the TY37, will state that the staysail is useless when beating --- Ive found this not to be so. With a set staysail when beating most cutter sailors attempt to make the staysail 'draw' ... and this seems by calculation to be all wrong. In researching this dilemma Ive found only a single article on proper staysail set on a beat. This is from an article by the famous aerodynamicist/sailor Arvel Gentry and appeared in a paperback compendium: New Best of Sail Trim c. 1980 issued by Sail Mag. Ive tried it and it seems valid under actual conditions of beating with a cutter. Gentry calculated that an intermediate sail set between the genoa and the main sail .... produced NO thrust/lift as its located in the relatively quiet zone between genoa and main (and just about anyone will agree with that statement). However he did calculate that if the staysail was set flat but with a rounded entry at the luff (hard halyard tension, etc.) and precisely set at some attack angle to the centerline what would occur would be a significant reduction of turbulence at the mast (the staysail essentially aerodynamically becoming a forward extension of the mainsail) ... mast turbulence reduction equates to better main sail performance and correspondingly better enhances genoa efficiency because of the better main sail efficiency. I use 'gentry-tufts' all over my sail plan to develop max sail performance efficiency and have found that when beating a flat set staysl with a distinctly rounded luff entry shape, does in fact add boat speed (~1/4 kt) @ 15kt. apparent winds. This particular set on the stay will produce better mainsail flow which gives better upwash to the genoa (130) !!!! Thought you'd be interested. I have a Tayana 37 but by todays 'standards' its a slow boat (174 PHRF) ... If I had unlimited $$$ it would take me three microseconds to buy a new Saga 43 a sloop with double forestays. In article s1SSb.196426$xy6.1011826@attbi_s02, Daniel E. Best wrote: No, The Tayana is not the ideal boat for everybody (shhhhh, don't let the those on the Tayana listserver know I said that). And your points are accurate. It is a bit more tender than the "perfect" boat, but under sail, I'd have to disagree with you about it being rolly (though under power, you're right). Under sail, it finds an angle of heel and just locks into it. We still get the for and aft rocking and vertical heave, but almost no roll component of motion. Also, with it's full (cutaway forefoot) keel, it tracks like it's on rails. So well that I can read while hand steering - just glance up every couple of sentences and perhaps adjust the wheel an inch, and remember to check the horizon every page or so. Since our previous boat was a Catalina 30 which required constant vigilance on the helm, I really love the way it handles. I can even let go of the helm and go up on the foredeck to fiddle with something and when I get back to the helm, we're no more than 10 degrees or so off course. The down side to this is maneuvering around the docks. In the Catalina, when we got to the slip we just turned into it. To say you have plan the same turn in the Tayana is an understatement. We've had the boat two years now, and while I've never crashed it into the dock or my dock neighbors boat (our marina only has fingers every other boat), entering the slip is something that raises my blood pressure a tad. We were also pleasantly surprised with its' performance - though you've gotta remember what our last boat was. When we've got some wind, we now comfortably cruise for hours without stressing anything at the same speeds that were "balls to the wall and pray nothing breaks" on the Catalina (7.5 - 8.5 kt). For those that enjoy this style of cruising boat, the Tayana is an excellent example of it. I could go on and on, but I'm beginning to sound like an evangelist. Almost as bad as when the subject of Porta-Botes comes up ;-) Take care - Dan JAXAshby wrote: The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. |
Offshore cruiser questions
I do agree with all of Dans comments about the helm stability of a
TY37. Ill also add that with the autopilot disengaged, Ive occasionally fallen asleep behind the wheel of my TY37 because it does track so well. Tayana 37 specific info (and probably applies to most cutter rigged boats in general) --- There is an apparent misunderstanding about the staysail trim on a staysail rigged boat that defies comprehension and is usually overlooked. Most of the sail set recommendations are derived from sloop rigged boats. Even Robert Perrry, the designer of the TY37, will state that the staysail is useless when beating --- Ive found this not to be so. With a set staysail when beating most cutter sailors attempt to make the staysail 'draw' ... and this seems by calculation to be all wrong. In researching this dilemma Ive found only a single article on proper staysail set on a beat. This is from an article by the famous aerodynamicist/sailor Arvel Gentry and appeared in a paperback compendium: New Best of Sail Trim c. 1980 issued by Sail Mag. Ive tried it and it seems valid under actual conditions of beating with a cutter. Gentry calculated that an intermediate sail set between the genoa and the main sail .... produced NO thrust/lift as its located in the relatively quiet zone between genoa and main (and just about anyone will agree with that statement). However he did calculate that if the staysail was set flat but with a rounded entry at the luff (hard halyard tension, etc.) and precisely set at some attack angle to the centerline what would occur would be a significant reduction of turbulence at the mast (the staysail essentially aerodynamically becoming a forward extension of the mainsail) ... mast turbulence reduction equates to better main sail performance and correspondingly better enhances genoa efficiency because of the better main sail efficiency. I use 'gentry-tufts' all over my sail plan to develop max sail performance efficiency and have found that when beating a flat set staysl with a distinctly rounded luff entry shape, does in fact add boat speed (~1/4 kt) @ 15kt. apparent winds. This particular set on the stay will produce better mainsail flow which gives better upwash to the genoa (130) !!!! Thought you'd be interested. I have a Tayana 37 but by todays 'standards' its a slow boat (174 PHRF) ... If I had unlimited $$$ it would take me three microseconds to buy a new Saga 43 a sloop with double forestays. In article s1SSb.196426$xy6.1011826@attbi_s02, Daniel E. Best wrote: No, The Tayana is not the ideal boat for everybody (shhhhh, don't let the those on the Tayana listserver know I said that). And your points are accurate. It is a bit more tender than the "perfect" boat, but under sail, I'd have to disagree with you about it being rolly (though under power, you're right). Under sail, it finds an angle of heel and just locks into it. We still get the for and aft rocking and vertical heave, but almost no roll component of motion. Also, with it's full (cutaway forefoot) keel, it tracks like it's on rails. So well that I can read while hand steering - just glance up every couple of sentences and perhaps adjust the wheel an inch, and remember to check the horizon every page or so. Since our previous boat was a Catalina 30 which required constant vigilance on the helm, I really love the way it handles. I can even let go of the helm and go up on the foredeck to fiddle with something and when I get back to the helm, we're no more than 10 degrees or so off course. The down side to this is maneuvering around the docks. In the Catalina, when we got to the slip we just turned into it. To say you have plan the same turn in the Tayana is an understatement. We've had the boat two years now, and while I've never crashed it into the dock or my dock neighbors boat (our marina only has fingers every other boat), entering the slip is something that raises my blood pressure a tad. We were also pleasantly surprised with its' performance - though you've gotta remember what our last boat was. When we've got some wind, we now comfortably cruise for hours without stressing anything at the same speeds that were "balls to the wall and pray nothing breaks" on the Catalina (7.5 - 8.5 kt). For those that enjoy this style of cruising boat, the Tayana is an excellent example of it. I could go on and on, but I'm beginning to sound like an evangelist. Almost as bad as when the subject of Porta-Botes comes up ;-) Take care - Dan JAXAshby wrote: The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. |
Offshore cruiser questions
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:37:20 GMT, "Wendy"
wrote: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message .. . You will learn to sail fastest in a boat barely big enough to hold you. That is because you will feel the effect of everything you do very soon. Yah, I've got a 17' Hobie Cat now- very fast, very twitchy. It's the sport model, with no jib, but it's loads of fun. I've learned a lot on it ("how to upright your catmaran" was the first lesson :) I'd just like to step up to something a bit more serious. OK, but don't assume that 'more serious'='bigger.' You couldn't get much more serious than a 49er, for example (not a singlehander--I am not suggesting it for you). It is only 15 feet long. For honing sailing skills, and especially seat-of-pants instincts, a serious one-design fleet is more important than what the boat is. If there were a fleet of Europe dinghies that you could join (womens' Olympic singlehander) you could learn really fast. Everyone would help you, and you would see your progress objectively. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry. - Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind" |
Offshore cruiser questions
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:37:20 GMT, "Wendy"
wrote: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message .. . You will learn to sail fastest in a boat barely big enough to hold you. That is because you will feel the effect of everything you do very soon. Yah, I've got a 17' Hobie Cat now- very fast, very twitchy. It's the sport model, with no jib, but it's loads of fun. I've learned a lot on it ("how to upright your catmaran" was the first lesson :) I'd just like to step up to something a bit more serious. OK, but don't assume that 'more serious'='bigger.' You couldn't get much more serious than a 49er, for example (not a singlehander--I am not suggesting it for you). It is only 15 feet long. For honing sailing skills, and especially seat-of-pants instincts, a serious one-design fleet is more important than what the boat is. If there were a fleet of Europe dinghies that you could join (womens' Olympic singlehander) you could learn really fast. Everyone would help you, and you would see your progress objectively. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry. - Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind" |
Offshore cruiser questions
This article is copied from the Lat. 38 magazine letters section of this
January, and is worth reading. Simply stated, the type of boat that will suit you best will be obvious to you after you experience more sailing. Although the article is tailored to the West Coast, I'm sure that similar opportunities exist where you live. http://www.latitude38.com/letters/200401.htm COULD I GO CRUISING BY THE END OF THE YEAR? Ahoy. I wish to purchase a bluewater cruising boat and sail her to Easter Island by way of the Galapagos. One small detail - I've never sailed before. It's also December. I'm looking for help in how to best attack this goal - apart from waiting until spring. What sort of vessel am I looking for? My budget is limited to just over $50,000 to go to sea. Something says ketch, for they have smaller sails per given sail area, which suggests easier handling, and the mizzen would appear to be valuable in heavy weather. Are these suppositions correct, and are they important? I understand already that I'm talking a large displacement/length ratio for a bluewater cruiser, and therefore it will be slow, but, of course, I want the room. I hope to get my speed from having the longest waterline within my budget. Comparatively, if I buy a cheap vessel in poor condition and spend a fortune to have it professionally refitted, would I be better off than with a newer and more expensive boat? A more simple question; Do boats just go to utter rot, and cheap is cheap? I have read the Handbook of Sailing. Recognizing the limitations of what can be learned from a book, it appears rather simple in principle. Children can sail, after all. Is this a skill one can teach oneself, or are qualified lessons the only sensible way to learn? When it comes to the time frame, I have a substantial leg up with respect to navigation and meteorology - we landlubbers have weather, too. I'm hoping to buy this vessel in early 2004, learn to sail it summer/fall 2004, and head for the southern hemisphere in early 2005. Is this wildly optimistic? I'm a bright lad, but wonder if a feller can learn to sail well enough for bluewater in a single year? I do not plan to go alone, although not necessarily with crew more experienced than I. Considering logistics, regulations and so forth, what time frame would be realistic for me? I think you get my drift, which is that I currently know just enough to be lost with all hands. Please toss me some suggestions, including, if you must, evaluations of my sanity. TIA Silverhawk TIA - If you have passion, at least average intelligence, and $50,000, there's no reason you can't safely cruise to Mexico this fall and the South Pacific early next year. Lots of folks have learned to sail and bought and prepared a boat in such a time span. Take it from someone who has never taken a sailing lesson, the most important thing you can do is take sailing lessons rather than try to teach yourself or learn haphazardly from friends. However, we might suggest waiting until March so you'll be able to learn in reliably strong winds. In addition to the basic classes you might take on the Bay - a great place to learn - you should also sign up for one or more three-day offshore adventures to Catalina or the Channel Islands. This will not be money thrown away, but rather a good investment in your future cruising pleasure. Come the third week in March, you should fly down to Puerto Vallarta for the Banderas Bay Regatta. There are three days of fun racing, so if you play your cards right, you'll be able to crew on three entirely different kinds of cruising boats. In addition, you'll be able to walk the docks and see hundreds of other boats that have been cruised to Mexico, and talk with their owners. If you want, you could easily get a crew position on a boat going up to La Paz or down to Acapulco. As soon as the Beer Can Races start in April, you should participate as frequently as possible as crew. Yes, we know you're not interested in racing, but that's not the point. Your goal should be to observe others having a great time with their boats while maneuvering at high speed in close quarters, and to sail on as many different types of boats as possible. When the Master Mariners Regatta rolls around on Memorial Day, make sure you get a spot as crew for that event, too. During the race, observe how the various kinds of rigs perform in different conditions. By June, you could have finished several basic sailing courses, been out sailing at least 50 times, been offshore a couple of days, and sailed on scores of different boats. By this time you'll have started to develop quite a bit of confidence, as well as a good idea of what kind of boat appeals to you - and it might be something entirely different than what appeals to you now. By the end of July or August, you should be able to find a decently-equipped boat that easily fits into your budget. We suggest that you avoid complicated fixer-uppers, because you don't know enough about boats at this time to properly evaluate them. It would be better for you to get a simple boat with gear that works. Once you buy your boat, sail her three or four times a week on San Francisco Bay, and at night, too. By September, cruise her down to the Channel Islands and Catalina for offshore and anchoring practice. Do the Ha-Ha at the end of October. Cruise the Sea of Cortez in November and December, and mainland Mexico from December to March - not forgetting the Banderas Bay Regatta in March. The first week in April, head off to the Galapagos, French Polynesia or wherever. The only thing preventing you - or any other person with $50,000 - from following this plan is a lack of desire. |
Offshore cruiser questions
This article is copied from the Lat. 38 magazine letters section of this
January, and is worth reading. Simply stated, the type of boat that will suit you best will be obvious to you after you experience more sailing. Although the article is tailored to the West Coast, I'm sure that similar opportunities exist where you live. http://www.latitude38.com/letters/200401.htm COULD I GO CRUISING BY THE END OF THE YEAR? Ahoy. I wish to purchase a bluewater cruising boat and sail her to Easter Island by way of the Galapagos. One small detail - I've never sailed before. It's also December. I'm looking for help in how to best attack this goal - apart from waiting until spring. What sort of vessel am I looking for? My budget is limited to just over $50,000 to go to sea. Something says ketch, for they have smaller sails per given sail area, which suggests easier handling, and the mizzen would appear to be valuable in heavy weather. Are these suppositions correct, and are they important? I understand already that I'm talking a large displacement/length ratio for a bluewater cruiser, and therefore it will be slow, but, of course, I want the room. I hope to get my speed from having the longest waterline within my budget. Comparatively, if I buy a cheap vessel in poor condition and spend a fortune to have it professionally refitted, would I be better off than with a newer and more expensive boat? A more simple question; Do boats just go to utter rot, and cheap is cheap? I have read the Handbook of Sailing. Recognizing the limitations of what can be learned from a book, it appears rather simple in principle. Children can sail, after all. Is this a skill one can teach oneself, or are qualified lessons the only sensible way to learn? When it comes to the time frame, I have a substantial leg up with respect to navigation and meteorology - we landlubbers have weather, too. I'm hoping to buy this vessel in early 2004, learn to sail it summer/fall 2004, and head for the southern hemisphere in early 2005. Is this wildly optimistic? I'm a bright lad, but wonder if a feller can learn to sail well enough for bluewater in a single year? I do not plan to go alone, although not necessarily with crew more experienced than I. Considering logistics, regulations and so forth, what time frame would be realistic for me? I think you get my drift, which is that I currently know just enough to be lost with all hands. Please toss me some suggestions, including, if you must, evaluations of my sanity. TIA Silverhawk TIA - If you have passion, at least average intelligence, and $50,000, there's no reason you can't safely cruise to Mexico this fall and the South Pacific early next year. Lots of folks have learned to sail and bought and prepared a boat in such a time span. Take it from someone who has never taken a sailing lesson, the most important thing you can do is take sailing lessons rather than try to teach yourself or learn haphazardly from friends. However, we might suggest waiting until March so you'll be able to learn in reliably strong winds. In addition to the basic classes you might take on the Bay - a great place to learn - you should also sign up for one or more three-day offshore adventures to Catalina or the Channel Islands. This will not be money thrown away, but rather a good investment in your future cruising pleasure. Come the third week in March, you should fly down to Puerto Vallarta for the Banderas Bay Regatta. There are three days of fun racing, so if you play your cards right, you'll be able to crew on three entirely different kinds of cruising boats. In addition, you'll be able to walk the docks and see hundreds of other boats that have been cruised to Mexico, and talk with their owners. If you want, you could easily get a crew position on a boat going up to La Paz or down to Acapulco. As soon as the Beer Can Races start in April, you should participate as frequently as possible as crew. Yes, we know you're not interested in racing, but that's not the point. Your goal should be to observe others having a great time with their boats while maneuvering at high speed in close quarters, and to sail on as many different types of boats as possible. When the Master Mariners Regatta rolls around on Memorial Day, make sure you get a spot as crew for that event, too. During the race, observe how the various kinds of rigs perform in different conditions. By June, you could have finished several basic sailing courses, been out sailing at least 50 times, been offshore a couple of days, and sailed on scores of different boats. By this time you'll have started to develop quite a bit of confidence, as well as a good idea of what kind of boat appeals to you - and it might be something entirely different than what appeals to you now. By the end of July or August, you should be able to find a decently-equipped boat that easily fits into your budget. We suggest that you avoid complicated fixer-uppers, because you don't know enough about boats at this time to properly evaluate them. It would be better for you to get a simple boat with gear that works. Once you buy your boat, sail her three or four times a week on San Francisco Bay, and at night, too. By September, cruise her down to the Channel Islands and Catalina for offshore and anchoring practice. Do the Ha-Ha at the end of October. Cruise the Sea of Cortez in November and December, and mainland Mexico from December to March - not forgetting the Banderas Bay Regatta in March. The first week in April, head off to the Galapagos, French Polynesia or wherever. The only thing preventing you - or any other person with $50,000 - from following this plan is a lack of desire. |
Offshore cruiser questions
Rosalie B. wrote: Nor do I find any particular fun in talking to pimply faced or even non-pimply faced kids. I'd rather sit in a classroom and harass a teacherg It's not the pimples I find off-putting, it's the studs and other metal objects. sigh Keeps me out of all kinds of stores. dv |
Offshore cruiser questions
Rosalie B. wrote: Nor do I find any particular fun in talking to pimply faced or even non-pimply faced kids. I'd rather sit in a classroom and harass a teacherg It's not the pimples I find off-putting, it's the studs and other metal objects. sigh Keeps me out of all kinds of stores. dv |
Offshore cruiser questions
x-no-archive:yes
Dave Skolnick wrote: Rosalie B. wrote: Nor do I find any particular fun in talking to pimply faced or even non-pimply faced kids. I'd rather sit in a classroom and harass a teacherg It's not the pimples I find off-putting, it's the studs and other metal objects. sigh Keeps me out of all kinds of stores. I find this more interesting than off-putting. Of course one of my daughters had a belly button ring, and my son had a pierced ear for awhile. Also a boat friend now has an earring and a beard and looks a bit like an old New England sailing captain. (Have you seen "Pirates of the Caribbean"?) I think piercings are pretty much not unusual for sailors. And a lot of the more esoteric piercings are not visible to normal viewers - usually only of interest at airport screening areas. grandma Rosalie |
Offshore cruiser questions
x-no-archive:yes
Dave Skolnick wrote: Rosalie B. wrote: Nor do I find any particular fun in talking to pimply faced or even non-pimply faced kids. I'd rather sit in a classroom and harass a teacherg It's not the pimples I find off-putting, it's the studs and other metal objects. sigh Keeps me out of all kinds of stores. I find this more interesting than off-putting. Of course one of my daughters had a belly button ring, and my son had a pierced ear for awhile. Also a boat friend now has an earring and a beard and looks a bit like an old New England sailing captain. (Have you seen "Pirates of the Caribbean"?) I think piercings are pretty much not unusual for sailors. And a lot of the more esoteric piercings are not visible to normal viewers - usually only of interest at airport screening areas. grandma Rosalie |
Offshore cruiser questions
"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:37:20 GMT, "Wendy" wrote: OK, but don't assume that 'more serious'='bigger.' You couldn't get much more serious than a 49er, for example (not a singlehander--I am not suggesting it for you). It is only 15 feet long. For honing sailing skills, and especially seat-of-pants instincts, a serious one-design fleet is more important than what the boat is. If there were a fleet of Europe dinghies that you could join (womens' Olympic singlehander) you could learn really fast. Everyone would help you, and you would see your progress objectively. I learned to sail in a 12' sailing skiff that was a local backyard built boat. It was very tender and if you switched your gum to the other side of your mouth, you end up swimming. In righting the boat you remembered what you did wrong and didn't do that again. It was suggested to sail a Europe and along with that I would pick the Sunfish, Laser, or a Force 5 as a learning tool. Everything there can be applied to a large boat. Leanne s/v Fundy |
Offshore cruiser questions
"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:37:20 GMT, "Wendy" wrote: OK, but don't assume that 'more serious'='bigger.' You couldn't get much more serious than a 49er, for example (not a singlehander--I am not suggesting it for you). It is only 15 feet long. For honing sailing skills, and especially seat-of-pants instincts, a serious one-design fleet is more important than what the boat is. If there were a fleet of Europe dinghies that you could join (womens' Olympic singlehander) you could learn really fast. Everyone would help you, and you would see your progress objectively. I learned to sail in a 12' sailing skiff that was a local backyard built boat. It was very tender and if you switched your gum to the other side of your mouth, you end up swimming. In righting the boat you remembered what you did wrong and didn't do that again. It was suggested to sail a Europe and along with that I would pick the Sunfish, Laser, or a Force 5 as a learning tool. Everything there can be applied to a large boat. Leanne s/v Fundy |
Offshore cruiser questions
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, *I* have a Porta-Bote, and LIKE it. {grin}
No, The Tayana is not the ideal boat for everybody (shhhhh, don't let the those on the Tayana listserver know I said that). And your points are accurate. It is a bit more tender than the "perfect" boat, but under sail, I'd have to disagree with you about it being rolly (though under power, you're right). Under sail, it finds an angle of heel and just locks into it. We still get the for and aft rocking and vertical heave, but almost no roll component of motion. Also, with it's full (cutaway forefoot) keel, it tracks like it's on rails. So well that I can read while hand steering - just glance up every couple of sentences and perhaps adjust the wheel an inch, and remember to check the horizon every page or so. Since our previous boat was a Catalina 30 which required constant vigilance on the helm, I really love the way it handles. I can even let go of the helm and go up on the foredeck to fiddle with something and when I get back to the helm, we're no more than 10 degrees or so off course. The down side to this is maneuvering around the docks. In the Catalina, when we got to the slip we just turned into it. To say you have plan the same turn in the Tayana is an understatement. We've had the boat two years now, and while I've never crashed it into the dock or my dock neighbors boat (our marina only has fingers every other boat), entering the slip is something that raises my blood pressure a tad. We were also pleasantly surprised with its' performance - though you've gotta remember what our last boat was. When we've got some wind, we now comfortably cruise for hours without stressing anything at the same speeds that were "balls to the wall and pray nothing breaks" on the Catalina (7.5 - 8.5 kt). For those that enjoy this style of cruising boat, the Tayana is an excellent example of it. I could go on and on, but I'm beginning to sound like an evangelist. Almost as bad as when the subject of Porta-Botes comes up ;-) Take care - Dan JAXAshby wrote: The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, *I* have a Porta-Bote, and LIKE it. {grin}
No, The Tayana is not the ideal boat for everybody (shhhhh, don't let the those on the Tayana listserver know I said that). And your points are accurate. It is a bit more tender than the "perfect" boat, but under sail, I'd have to disagree with you about it being rolly (though under power, you're right). Under sail, it finds an angle of heel and just locks into it. We still get the for and aft rocking and vertical heave, but almost no roll component of motion. Also, with it's full (cutaway forefoot) keel, it tracks like it's on rails. So well that I can read while hand steering - just glance up every couple of sentences and perhaps adjust the wheel an inch, and remember to check the horizon every page or so. Since our previous boat was a Catalina 30 which required constant vigilance on the helm, I really love the way it handles. I can even let go of the helm and go up on the foredeck to fiddle with something and when I get back to the helm, we're no more than 10 degrees or so off course. The down side to this is maneuvering around the docks. In the Catalina, when we got to the slip we just turned into it. To say you have plan the same turn in the Tayana is an understatement. We've had the boat two years now, and while I've never crashed it into the dock or my dock neighbors boat (our marina only has fingers every other boat), entering the slip is something that raises my blood pressure a tad. We were also pleasantly surprised with its' performance - though you've gotta remember what our last boat was. When we've got some wind, we now comfortably cruise for hours without stressing anything at the same speeds that were "balls to the wall and pray nothing breaks" on the Catalina (7.5 - 8.5 kt). For those that enjoy this style of cruising boat, the Tayana is an excellent example of it. I could go on and on, but I'm beginning to sound like an evangelist. Almost as bad as when the subject of Porta-Botes comes up ;-) Take care - Dan JAXAshby wrote: The Tayana 37 gets some minus points for its high center of gravity, which makes it more tender, more rolly, and gives it a lower limit of positive stability. It is also not considered to be a fast as it might be. That said, it is still one beautiful boat, it is said to be the most common boat out there among cruising couples, and it is "big enough" to liveaboard for a couple without being a bear to handle under sail. It also has a shallow enough draft to "do the islands" in some of the shallower harbors, even if this reduces a bit its pointing ability. Hmmmm, Not to say that the boats on his list aren't good boats, but I dunno if I can really respect any supposedly comprehensive list of cruising boats that doesn't include the Tayana. I've never had it confirmed, but I've been told that more SSCA (Seve Seas Cruising Assoc.) member have the Tayana 37 than any other single make/model. Looking at it, I note that neither the Baba not the Union 36 are on it either. I haven't studied it in depth, but it would seem to be heavily weighted against the boats in the overbuilt/heavy end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with this, as the list just represents his personal opinions, and he clearly states that "passage-making speed ... is now high on my personal list of priorities". This is a very valid opinion, but not the only valid one. Some of us lean more toward the rugged and comfortable with reasonable to good performance boats (like my Tayana) http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html#boats4cruising John Neal's site (expedition sailing adventures) has a very good list of boats that he considers suitable for offshore trips. I tend to agree with most of his choices and comments. -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Offshore cruiser questions
Even Robert Perrry, the designer of the TY37, will state
that the staysail is useless Not to worry. There is at least three, maybe four, people who might disagree with Robby Periwinkle about one or two aspects of boat design.. |
Offshore cruiser questions
Even Robert Perrry, the designer of the TY37, will state
that the staysail is useless Not to worry. There is at least three, maybe four, people who might disagree with Robby Periwinkle about one or two aspects of boat design.. |
Offshore cruiser questions
And *please* don't assume that sail trim skills define the universe of skills
desireable in a cruising sailor. don't assume that 'more serious'='bigger.' You couldn't get much more serious than a 49er, for example (not a singlehander--I am not suggesting it for you). It is only 15 feet long. For honing sailing skills, and especially seat-of-pants instincts, a serious one-design fleet is more important than what the boat is. If there were a fleet of Europe dinghies that you could join (womens' Olympic singlehander) you could learn really fast. Everyone would help you, and you would see your progress objectively. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry. - Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind" |
Offshore cruiser questions
And *please* don't assume that sail trim skills define the universe of skills
desireable in a cruising sailor. don't assume that 'more serious'='bigger.' You couldn't get much more serious than a 49er, for example (not a singlehander--I am not suggesting it for you). It is only 15 feet long. For honing sailing skills, and especially seat-of-pants instincts, a serious one-design fleet is more important than what the boat is. If there were a fleet of Europe dinghies that you could join (womens' Olympic singlehander) you could learn really fast. Everyone would help you, and you would see your progress objectively. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry. - Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind" |
Offshore cruiser questions
true. for sail trim. for "cruising" in a sailboat there are a couple of
skills that might not fit under the catagory called "sail trim". would pick the Sunfish, Laser, or a Force 5 as a learning tool. Everything there can be applied to a large boat. |
Offshore cruiser questions
true. for sail trim. for "cruising" in a sailboat there are a couple of
skills that might not fit under the catagory called "sail trim". would pick the Sunfish, Laser, or a Force 5 as a learning tool. Everything there can be applied to a large boat. |
Offshore cruiser questions
Lad, quit drinking the bilge water!
|
Offshore cruiser questions
Lad, quit drinking the bilge water!
|
Offshore cruiser questions
"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
... Consider upgrading and refitting a Robert Perry design: Tayana37, Valiant 40, etc. These older designs (although heavyweight by todays standards) have dominated passagemaking and voyaging for the past 30+ years. Depending on where you are located the best prices are in Florida/Gulf Coast. Prices for older still useable/rebuildable (with alluminum masts) should be in the neighborhood of $65K-100K These boats are built like Sherman Tanks and usually are quite sound structurally (overbuilt ). If you have to refit, figure a 20% added to your purchase price -- and that may be true for ANY used boat you buy. Everyone's got their own metrics, but for me, from the start, knowing I was going to be in the 20-30 year old boat range, I wanted a reserve of 50% of the purchase price for upgrades and the inevitable surprises that the surveyor missed, or the weather demanded, or whatever else. For whatever it may be worth, the supposedly bristol, mega-equipped boat we're trying to buy isn't any different. It would benefit you to go to the surveyor's site - David Pascoe - where there's a discussion on surveys, and how you might react to a less-than-stellar one. I took/take that position, and as such, am expecting to do my/our best to make this deal work - but it will be at a significantly higher end cost than the originally agreed-upon price, because, I've found, the more times you go to a boat, the more you see that isn't just right, and this one's no different. My points a First, try to get educated about the boat type (make, model) you want, in order to know where the bodies are buried. Once you have, know that most likely all the boats in that type will have similar problems, and leaving one boat (due to survey problems) to go to another probably won't provide you with a meaningfully different experience. Second, and you may have already come to that decision, if you're thinking in terms of a purchase price of 80, I'd not be comfortable without a reserve of 40 behind that. At that (if you've discovered by googling post of mine here you probably already know), we started at 30-40' and 60k and wound up at significantly more volume (in our case, 45' hull) and double the budget. However, that budget initially, and now, included a reserve of 50%... You've got a while to look, which is great. It's a marvelous experience. Presumably, you don't have the challenges we do, which makes your choices far broader. In the course of our initial looking, there were many boats which fit your criteria that I could even fit on - but which Lydia detested, and so were immediately scrubbed. Your tastes, inferred from your piloting, likely will be more practical than emotional :{)) - which will increase your available potential successful candidates. I'd have to say, in conclusion, though, that this experience is similar to my initial looking in real estate investing. There was what the seminars called the 'hundred house rule' - look at a hundred houses (metaphorically speaking - it might only be 30, or it might take you 150), and you'll know what works for you. It was that experience that let me be on and off the vast majority of the last hundred boats I went aboard in less than a minute or two - brokers loved me for that. They probably didn't have the offsetting appreciation for how specific I was about what worked (and the demand that I get it before moving forward), though! Good luck in your searching - and go aboard as many as you can as a sailor. Life below and above decks is different on the water! L8R Skip -- "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin |
Offshore cruiser questions
"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
... Consider upgrading and refitting a Robert Perry design: Tayana37, Valiant 40, etc. These older designs (although heavyweight by todays standards) have dominated passagemaking and voyaging for the past 30+ years. Depending on where you are located the best prices are in Florida/Gulf Coast. Prices for older still useable/rebuildable (with alluminum masts) should be in the neighborhood of $65K-100K These boats are built like Sherman Tanks and usually are quite sound structurally (overbuilt ). If you have to refit, figure a 20% added to your purchase price -- and that may be true for ANY used boat you buy. Everyone's got their own metrics, but for me, from the start, knowing I was going to be in the 20-30 year old boat range, I wanted a reserve of 50% of the purchase price for upgrades and the inevitable surprises that the surveyor missed, or the weather demanded, or whatever else. For whatever it may be worth, the supposedly bristol, mega-equipped boat we're trying to buy isn't any different. It would benefit you to go to the surveyor's site - David Pascoe - where there's a discussion on surveys, and how you might react to a less-than-stellar one. I took/take that position, and as such, am expecting to do my/our best to make this deal work - but it will be at a significantly higher end cost than the originally agreed-upon price, because, I've found, the more times you go to a boat, the more you see that isn't just right, and this one's no different. My points a First, try to get educated about the boat type (make, model) you want, in order to know where the bodies are buried. Once you have, know that most likely all the boats in that type will have similar problems, and leaving one boat (due to survey problems) to go to another probably won't provide you with a meaningfully different experience. Second, and you may have already come to that decision, if you're thinking in terms of a purchase price of 80, I'd not be comfortable without a reserve of 40 behind that. At that (if you've discovered by googling post of mine here you probably already know), we started at 30-40' and 60k and wound up at significantly more volume (in our case, 45' hull) and double the budget. However, that budget initially, and now, included a reserve of 50%... You've got a while to look, which is great. It's a marvelous experience. Presumably, you don't have the challenges we do, which makes your choices far broader. In the course of our initial looking, there were many boats which fit your criteria that I could even fit on - but which Lydia detested, and so were immediately scrubbed. Your tastes, inferred from your piloting, likely will be more practical than emotional :{)) - which will increase your available potential successful candidates. I'd have to say, in conclusion, though, that this experience is similar to my initial looking in real estate investing. There was what the seminars called the 'hundred house rule' - look at a hundred houses (metaphorically speaking - it might only be 30, or it might take you 150), and you'll know what works for you. It was that experience that let me be on and off the vast majority of the last hundred boats I went aboard in less than a minute or two - brokers loved me for that. They probably didn't have the offsetting appreciation for how specific I was about what worked (and the demand that I get it before moving forward), though! Good luck in your searching - and go aboard as many as you can as a sailor. Life below and above decks is different on the water! L8R Skip -- "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin |
Offshore cruiser questions
test, apologies...
-- "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ink.net... "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Consider upgrading and refitting a Robert Perry design: Tayana37, Valiant 40, etc. These older designs (although heavyweight by todays standards) have dominated passagemaking and voyaging for the past 30+ years. Depending on where you are located the best prices are in Florida/Gulf Coast. Prices for older still useable/rebuildable (with alluminum masts) should be in the neighborhood of $65K-100K These boats are built like Sherman Tanks and usually are quite sound structurally (overbuilt ). If you have to refit, figure a 20% added to your purchase price -- and that may be true for ANY used boat you buy. Everyone's got their own metrics, but for me, from the start, knowing I was going to be in the 20-30 year old boat range, I wanted a reserve of 50% of the purchase price for upgrades and the inevitable surprises that the surveyor missed, or the weather demanded, or whatever else. For whatever it may be worth, the supposedly bristol, mega-equipped boat we're trying to buy isn't any different. It would benefit you to go to the surveyor's site - David Pascoe - where there's a discussion on surveys, and how you might react to a less-than-stellar one. I took/take that position, and as such, am expecting to do my/our best to make this deal work - but it will be at a significantly higher end cost than the originally agreed-upon price, because, I've found, the more times you go to a boat, the more you see that isn't just right, and this one's no different. My points a First, try to get educated about the boat type (make, model) you want, in order to know where the bodies are buried. Once you have, know that most likely all the boats in that type will have similar problems, and leaving one boat (due to survey problems) to go to another probably won't provide you with a meaningfully different experience. Second, and you may have already come to that decision, if you're thinking in terms of a purchase price of 80, I'd not be comfortable without a reserve of 40 behind that. At that (if you've discovered by googling post of mine here you probably already know), we started at 30-40' and 60k and wound up at significantly more volume (in our case, 45' hull) and double the budget. However, that budget initially, and now, included a reserve of 50%... You've got a while to look, which is great. It's a marvelous experience. Presumably, you don't have the challenges we do, which makes your choices far broader. In the course of our initial looking, there were many boats which fit your criteria that I could even fit on - but which Lydia detested, and so were immediately scrubbed. Your tastes, inferred from your piloting, likely will be more practical than emotional :{)) - which will increase your available potential successful candidates. I'd have to say, in conclusion, though, that this experience is similar to my initial looking in real estate investing. There was what the seminars called the 'hundred house rule' - look at a hundred houses (metaphorically speaking - it might only be 30, or it might take you 150), and you'll know what works for you. It was that experience that let me be on and off the vast majority of the last hundred boats I went aboard in less than a minute or two - brokers loved me for that. They probably didn't have the offsetting appreciation for how specific I was about what worked (and the demand that I get it before moving forward), though! Good luck in your searching - and go aboard as many as you can as a sailor. Life below and above decks is different on the water! L8R Skip -- "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:15 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com