Skip Gundlach wrote:
Since that is where we'll have our hailing port and
documentation, and proceed directly to ... where we
live now won't even know about it, I don't figure. In
the case of FL, they have rather stringent requirements about documenting
your removal from the state...

I'm no expert, but if FL is the same as CA, you must take delivery
offshore and proceed directly to out of the country. If you take
delivery in CA, then leave you owe the sales tax. Where delivery is
taken makes all the difference. I'm not trying to throw a wrench in the
works, just saying to make sure you understand the rules FL goes by.

I've got my fingers crossed for you guys - Dan

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

x-no-archive:yes


"Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Hi, Dan,

"Dan Best" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
*documentation - at the moment, the boat is a FL registered, not
documented,

Skip,
This should be a non-issue. Our Tayana was CA registered when we bought
it. Getting it documented was just a matter of filling out a form and
sending it in along with a simple copy of the state ownership
certificate ("pink slip"). When the state registration came up for
renewal, I just sent it back along with a note stating the boat had been
documented and a copy of the documentation certificate and haven't heard
from them since.

We don't anticipate any issue whatever - other than a benefit to us of a
thoroughly searched title and resolution of any issues which may remain as a
product of the death of one of the owners (I'm still bothered by the listing
continuing to trumpet this as an estate sale, but the lister asserting it to
be free and clearly the property of an attorney not deceased).

I agree that you should get IN WRITING a statement that says either that
no more gear will be removed or listing what gear currently on board
will not be included in the sale.

I'll eagerly await same :{))

On the tax issue, be aware if you don't pay FL tax, your state may
demand it. CA works that way, though there is an way to avoid it as
long as you take delivery and keep the boat out of the country for a
specific period and can document the fact that not only was this so, but
that you actually used it (it's not enough to just let it sit in a
marina). I don't know if just having it worked on would satisfy our
state tax collector or not (let along, yours).

Our situation will clearly fit, I believe. Both the US and British Virgin
Islands brokerages make a big deal out of 'no sales taxes in the Virgin
Islands' in their ads. Since that is where we'll have our hailing port and
documentation, and proceed directly to (well, with a rather long journey in
between to see the islands through which we'll pass and not likely return to
see later), where we live now won't even know about it, I don't figure. In
the case of FL, they have rather stringent requirements about documenting
your removal from the state (20 days max to leave, 30 days to submit
documentation of same via dockage, fuel purchase, or something else out of
state, with the boat clearly identified on the receipt), and if it never
comes to my state, I think we'd be doubly clear there.

I doubt that will work. You aren't taking possession in the Virgini
Islands. Being documented there isn't the same as BUYING it there.
Totally different as a matter of fact.

The only way that would be an issue is if you buy a boat where there
are no taxes (like RI or USVI) and document it there and then bring it
into a state with taxes. Even then, I know someone who bought a boat
in RI, and then came back to NJ to clear house and NJ insisted on
being paid taxes on the boat because they were living in NJ and no
taxes had yet been paid.

I think Florida will want the boat to pay tax and be registered, but
I'm a pessimist. I have seen people who took possession out past the
12 mile limit (documented by the GPS or something), and then brought
the boat in to shore and got it out of Florida (or maybe into a yard)
within the time limit, but that was for boats which were going to be
registered in another state and pay taxes in another state.

I've also heard of folks that had their boat documented in Texas and
TX says that a documented boat cannot also be registered. Florida
says that a documented boat has to be registered somewhere and too bad
if it comes from TX where it can't be both.

Best of luck - Dan

Heh. Thanks. As much effort as went into the search, this one is a lot
tougher for me. There's entirely too many places this can fall apart, and
all of them are expensive to discover. A prior wise-guy thread about the
'real' cost of the boat identified some of the costs we've incurred. All of
the prior costs combined won't equal the costs of the discovery process on
this boat...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

grandma Rosalie

x-no-archive:yes


"Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Hi, Dan,

"Dan Best" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
*documentation - at the moment, the boat is a FL registered, not
documented,

Skip,
This should be a non-issue. Our Tayana was CA registered when we bought
it. Getting it documented was just a matter of filling out a form and
sending it in along with a simple copy of the state ownership
certificate ("pink slip"). When the state registration came up for
renewal, I just sent it back along with a note stating the boat had been
documented and a copy of the documentation certificate and haven't heard
from them since.

We don't anticipate any issue whatever - other than a benefit to us of a
thoroughly searched title and resolution of any issues which may remain as a
product of the death of one of the owners (I'm still bothered by the listing
continuing to trumpet this as an estate sale, but the lister asserting it to
be free and clearly the property of an attorney not deceased).

I agree that you should get IN WRITING a statement that says either that
no more gear will be removed or listing what gear currently on board
will not be included in the sale.

I'll eagerly await same :{))

On the tax issue, be aware if you don't pay FL tax, your state may
demand it. CA works that way, though there is an way to avoid it as
long as you take delivery and keep the boat out of the country for a
specific period and can document the fact that not only was this so, but
that you actually used it (it's not enough to just let it sit in a
marina). I don't know if just having it worked on would satisfy our
state tax collector or not (let along, yours).

Our situation will clearly fit, I believe. Both the US and British Virgin
Islands brokerages make a big deal out of 'no sales taxes in the Virgin
Islands' in their ads. Since that is where we'll have our hailing port and
documentation, and proceed directly to (well, with a rather long journey in
between to see the islands through which we'll pass and not likely return to
see later), where we live now won't even know about it, I don't figure. In
the case of FL, they have rather stringent requirements about documenting
your removal from the state (20 days max to leave, 30 days to submit
documentation of same via dockage, fuel purchase, or something else out of
state, with the boat clearly identified on the receipt), and if it never
comes to my state, I think we'd be doubly clear there.

I doubt that will work. You aren't taking possession in the Virgini
Islands. Being documented there isn't the same as BUYING it there.
Totally different as a matter of fact.

The only way that would be an issue is if you buy a boat where there
are no taxes (like RI or USVI) and document it there and then bring it
into a state with taxes. Even then, I know someone who bought a boat
in RI, and then came back to NJ to clear house and NJ insisted on
being paid taxes on the boat because they were living in NJ and no
taxes had yet been paid.

I think Florida will want the boat to pay tax and be registered, but
I'm a pessimist. I have seen people who took possession out past the
12 mile limit (documented by the GPS or something), and then brought
the boat in to shore and got it out of Florida (or maybe into a yard)
within the time limit, but that was for boats which were going to be
registered in another state and pay taxes in another state.

I've also heard of folks that had their boat documented in Texas and
TX says that a documented boat cannot also be registered. Florida
says that a documented boat has to be registered somewhere and too bad
if it comes from TX where it can't be both.

Best of luck - Dan

Heh. Thanks. As much effort as went into the search, this one is a lot
tougher for me. There's entirely too many places this can fall apart, and
all of them are expensive to discover. A prior wise-guy thread about the
'real' cost of the boat identified some of the costs we've incurred. All of
the prior costs combined won't equal the costs of the discovery process on
this boat...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

grandma Rosalie

x-no-archive:yes

"Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Hi, Doug,

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:

Well, really, this is more of a preview than a report...
....(snip for brevity)
..... This offer was accepted. ....We included several conditions:

It never ceases to amaze me the types of games people will play for money.

No kidding. However, in this case, the lawyer screwed up, and faxed a
signed copy of the deal to my broker. However, the listing broker had
received an addendum which basically rewrote the selling broker's contract
(looking to bill the estate more??), but also halving the difference between
our offer and his counter. My broker's position is that we have a signed
copy of our counter, and demanded assurance from the lister that this would
not be an issue, which assurance he received.

In our case, the broker took our signed offer and faxed it to the
owner in Hawaii. The owner counteroffered from Hawaii. The broker
took our acceptance of the counter offer over the phone and then wrote
it up (with totally unsuitable dates - he had the closing on the 4th
of July), But he then took the last page of the previous offer with
our signatures and attached it to the new paperwork and sent/faxed it
to the owner who then countersigned it. We never saw it until we
asked and he then mailed it to us (to the wrong address, but it did
get to us eventually).

We were unhappy at this way of doing business. In our case, the boat
passed the survey and everything turned out OK, but Bob complained to
the agency the broker worked for.

We're quite prepared to walk, though it would absolutely break Lydia's
heart, if it became an issue. Absent an included addendum, however, my
broker's position is that we have an accepted offer without same, and that
seems acceptable to the seller, particularly since it was his error.

However, I remain on my guard :{/)

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

grandma Rosalie

x-no-archive:yes

"Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Hi, Doug,

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:

Well, really, this is more of a preview than a report...
....(snip for brevity)
..... This offer was accepted. ....We included several conditions:

It never ceases to amaze me the types of games people will play for money.

No kidding. However, in this case, the lawyer screwed up, and faxed a
signed copy of the deal to my broker. However, the listing broker had
received an addendum which basically rewrote the selling broker's contract
(looking to bill the estate more??), but also halving the difference between
our offer and his counter. My broker's position is that we have a signed
copy of our counter, and demanded assurance from the lister that this would
not be an issue, which assurance he received.

In our case, the broker took our signed offer and faxed it to the
owner in Hawaii. The owner counteroffered from Hawaii. The broker
took our acceptance of the counter offer over the phone and then wrote
it up (with totally unsuitable dates - he had the closing on the 4th
of July), But he then took the last page of the previous offer with
our signatures and attached it to the new paperwork and sent/faxed it
to the owner who then countersigned it. We never saw it until we
asked and he then mailed it to us (to the wrong address, but it did
get to us eventually).

We were unhappy at this way of doing business. In our case, the boat
passed the survey and everything turned out OK, but Bob complained to
the agency the broker worked for.

We're quite prepared to walk, though it would absolutely break Lydia's
heart, if it became an issue. Absent an included addendum, however, my
broker's position is that we have an accepted offer without same, and that
seems acceptable to the seller, particularly since it was his error.

However, I remain on my guard :{/)

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

grandma Rosalie

Howdy, all,

Clipping all the discussion so as to avoid multiple attributions...

After lengthy consultation with FL DOR specialists and representatives, also
involving a manager, I'm comfortable about the mechanics of avoiding FL tax.
It's pretty straightforward: either leave the state in 10 days, get a
cruising sticker for up to 90 days and then leave before it's expired, or
leave the state within 20 days from completion of alteration or repairs.

Alteration or repairs can take as long as necessary; in fact, the code is
silent on that point, and, even on the "Registered Repair Facility" issue,
except as relates to a vessel returning to FL within 183 days from leaving
originally in order to not have to pay the tax. However, there's a weasel
in the administrative code, as compared to the tax code, which, my
seniormost advisor suggests is without merit, but agrees that some
eager-beaver enforcement fellow might invoke it, anyway, if I hadn't
complied with the RRF provisions - which, in order to remain under the
radar, I will, in fact, do.

So, the only issue in the prior couple of posts is whether GA, my current
home, might somehow demand tax be paid, even though the boat won't enter GA
waters, or if the USVI might, when it arrives there.

I'm a bit worn out on the code-searching, but common sense dictates that
something which never enters the territory shouldn't be taxed by that
territory (in this case, GA). It has no benefit from, nor burden on, GA,
and no GA resident or authority will be affected by the purchase (well,
other than our wallets).

Any tax specialists out there who would like to chime in on GA code are
encouraged, as I certainly don't want to accidentally owe a similar amount
of tax to GA!

Thanks for the interest.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Howdy, all,

Clipping all the discussion so as to avoid multiple attributions...

After lengthy consultation with FL DOR specialists and representatives, also
involving a manager, I'm comfortable about the mechanics of avoiding FL tax.
It's pretty straightforward: either leave the state in 10 days, get a
cruising sticker for up to 90 days and then leave before it's expired, or
leave the state within 20 days from completion of alteration or repairs.

Alteration or repairs can take as long as necessary; in fact, the code is
silent on that point, and, even on the "Registered Repair Facility" issue,
except as relates to a vessel returning to FL within 183 days from leaving
originally in order to not have to pay the tax. However, there's a weasel
in the administrative code, as compared to the tax code, which, my
seniormost advisor suggests is without merit, but agrees that some
eager-beaver enforcement fellow might invoke it, anyway, if I hadn't
complied with the RRF provisions - which, in order to remain under the
radar, I will, in fact, do.

So, the only issue in the prior couple of posts is whether GA, my current
home, might somehow demand tax be paid, even though the boat won't enter GA
waters, or if the USVI might, when it arrives there.

I'm a bit worn out on the code-searching, but common sense dictates that
something which never enters the territory shouldn't be taxed by that
territory (in this case, GA). It has no benefit from, nor burden on, GA,
and no GA resident or authority will be affected by the purchase (well,
other than our wallets).

Any tax specialists out there who would like to chime in on GA code are
encouraged, as I certainly don't want to accidentally owe a similar amount
of tax to GA!

Thanks for the interest.

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:51:00 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:


I've also heard of folks that had their boat documented in Texas and
TX says that a documented boat cannot also be registered. Florida
says that a documented boat has to be registered somewhere and too bad
if it comes from TX where it can't be both.

Well, Texas law only applies in Texas. Most states require a
documented boat that stays around for 3 months to pay registration.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:51:00 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:


I've also heard of folks that had their boat documented in Texas and
TX says that a documented boat cannot also be registered. Florida
says that a documented boat has to be registered somewhere and too bad
if it comes from TX where it can't be both.

Well, Texas law only applies in Texas. Most states require a
documented boat that stays around for 3 months to pay registration.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab

Skip Gundlach wrote:

However, the money is in escrow with our broker, and certainly, that's
*their* construction of our offer.


As a buyer it's never your broker. It's always the seller's broker.

I'd prefer to have the money in a neutral third party bank.

Joe Wood