BoatBanter.com - 5th Florida Trip Report (much shorter, this time)

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5th Florida Trip Report (much shorter, this time)

Well, really, this is more of a preview than a report...

Ultra brief synopsis for newcomers to the saga:

We've been looking for a boat which works for us, infinitely complicated by
my height, on which we'll live and travel the rest of our days or until we
get tired of it, whichever comes first.

Over the course of a year, and a search area extending from the US and
British Virgins to Annapolis all the way along the coast line to Saint
Petersburg, I investigated over 3000 listings on YachtWorld, identified well
over 250 boats as potentials and made appointments with brokers to see them,
had perhaps another 50 or so added by those brokers, actually went aboard
about 200 of them, and settled, after more than doubling our budget and
increasing our size parameters significantly, finally, on Morgan 46s, in any
configuration and keel as what suited us best.

We made an offer on a couple of boats along the way, which didn't work out.
Once we found the M46, we made an offer on a very highly
modified-for-singlehanding example which was countered at a very much higher
number. However, since that was our first choice, we kept it in our bag.
We then made an identical offer on another excellent boat, which was
'frivolously' countered, and we discarded it for the time being.

We went back to our first M46 counter, and counteroffered at a price which
was as much up from our original as the owner's was down from his (but not
equal to his counter). This offer was accepted.

We included several conditions:

*An engine survey - the engine room was in stark contrast to the rest of the
boat, and it's got 3800+ hours on it. If it's been well maintained, that
won't pose any problem, but if the condition of the ER represents the level
of attention to the moving bits, it's possible that it will require some
attention. I'm setting up the engine survey now, but still have not heard
from any in the various places I've posted requesting recommendations about
appropriate people from whom to chose. We'll dive the bottom at the same
time, in order to see if there are notable issues there, including, perhaps,
a bottom job. "Exceptions" in either case will result in new negotiations.
However, assuming all is well we will go to

*full survey, which will be at least a couple grand in the end. I want to
do the engine and bottom first, as it will be less than a grand to isolate
problems which may kill the deal. Unfortunately, we won't know those,
either, unless there's something catastrophic discovered before the

*sea trial - having had the luxury to be able to go sailing with another
couple for a day, albeit with light winds, we know what one of these *can*
do, even if not the full potential. The listing is silent on the
particulars of the sails, and they're under tight MackPacks so I didn't
attempt to ascertain their condition. Of course, both of these (survey and
sea trial) have the potential to derail this deal, as we're not willing to
take on any as-is corrections, having offered top dollar to get to this
point.

*Financing - While we can do it from available resources, we've come to the
conclusion that having a goodly portion of our capital available for
emergencies or other unforeseen contingencies is a good idea. We anticipate
being able to keep that excess capital at work at least to the degree our
loan costs us, so it just obviates the potential need to lay hands on a
substantial amount of cash via borrowing later. And, we've got approval for
at least as much as we feel prudent, and can probably get more before we
close if it seems appropriate (including other well-secured investment
opportunities for the excess capital). So, all looks positive to this
point. The closing agent will accomplish

*documentation - at the moment, the boat is a FL registered, not documented,
boat. That should be no problem, and we'll receive a chain of title in the
process, and the lender and we will be happy.

However, there's this wrinkle. We won't be taking off right away. In
addition to the need, then, to store the boat, we want to get some
modifications done. Florida tax law calls for some hoops to be jumped
through in order to not pay sales tax if you're going to remove the boat
from the state (we're going to base in Saint Thomas). I've been in
conversation with two consultants at the Florida DOR. The first, a
Technical Assistance and Dispute Resolution senior fellow, asserts that
there's nothing in the *tax code* which applies to this situation as to
where the boat must be kept during repairs, so, if there's nothing
prohibiting it, the code being "silent" on the matter, it's ok. The second,
a guy in the general help area, asserts that there's a section of technical
advice (note that it's not the code) which calls for non-departing vessels
to go to a "Registered Repair Facility" in order to meet the 'safe harbor'
provisions of not paying sales tax.

After a few back and forths, the TA/DR guy suggests that while he still
asserts there's no basis in code, the "Administrative Code" (not the tax
code) has a subsubparagraph in it which *could* be construed by a Revenue
Agent as a requirement. To have that remedied will require someone to sue
the state, and that's only someone who has a lot at stake. Until such time,
the possibility, however remote, exists that we might have sales tax
demanded of us, at which point *we* would be the ones making the suit, which
would cost more than the tax. So...

We'll have to find a "Registered Repair Facility" - which the second guy
says is not available by consulting a list, but by asking any facility I
might like if they are so defined. Fortunately, apparently, the hoops for
that are pretty simple, and from the description, likely any outfit that has
a waterfront and a travellift likely would already have done that.

A couple of nagging things remain. You'll recall the owner is an attorney.
Any time I'm dealing with an attorney, even if I'm being represented, I pay
particular attention to my Ps and Qs, so to speak. Since the listing
doesn't have any exceptions/exclusions, one could presume that the boat is
as-is, where-is. Advertising photography - not to mention my extensive
videos - clearly shows dive gear on deck and our two/my three tours of the
boat showed dive gear in closets below. They are not mentioned in the
listing, either as included or excluded. That gear has (just) now been
taken off the boat. Granted, in the early stages, I asked if there was a
compressor aboard, and the lister told my broker "the tanks do not convey" -
so that wasn't a *real* surprise. However...

Advertising photography also clearly shows a rollup dinghy and new outboard.
Lydia pointed out today that the listing has no mention of a dinghy and
motor. Since it's a rollup, it would be really easy to throw it, the
outboard, and the dive gear in the trunk and use it to go diving. If you've
followed this adventure before, it's probably redundant (because you know
how anal I am) to say that this bothers me a lot, in that, not being
specified on the listing, if it's construed to be OK (and the attorney
should know!) to remove stuff which was pictured and viewed before, anything
not specifically mentioned is up for grabs. There may well be other items
which aren't included in the list; we've not attempted to do an inventory.
My broker sez he'll get it in writing that the boat is as pictured and
boarded with only the dive gear now taken not to convey...

So, we're on our way to the purchase. I'm anticipating going (the 5th FL
trip) to the engine survey next week. Many stumbling blocks are possible,
of course, but if this one falls through, there are others. If this one
fails, I'll come back with a report about that, but I'm hopeful the next
report will be one of where we've taken it, a link to lots of pictures, and
some of the anticipated changes we have in mind :{))

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

5th Florida Trip Report (much shorter, this time)

Skip Gundlach wrote:
*documentation - at the moment, the boat is a FL registered, not documented,

Skip,
This should be a non-issue. Our Tayana was CA registered when we bought
it. Getting it documented was just a matter of filling out a form and
sending it in alongs with a simple copy of the state wonership
certificate ("pink slip"). When the state registration came up for
renewal, I just sent it back along with a note stating the boat had been
documented and a copy of the documentation certificate and haven't heard
from them since.

I agree that you should get IN WRITING a statement that says either that
no more gear will be removed or listing what gear currently on board
will not be included in the sale.

On the tax issue, be aware if you don't pay FL tax, your state may
demand it. CA works that way, though there is an way to avoid it as
long as you take delivery and keep the boat out of the country for a
specific period and can document the fact that not only was this so, but
that you actually used it (it's not enough to just let it sit in a
marina). I don't know if just having it worked on would satisfy our
state tax collector or not (let along, yours).

Best of luck - Dan

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

5th Florida Trip Report (much shorter, this time)

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Well, really, this is more of a preview than a report...
....(snip for brevity)
..... This offer was accepted. ....We included several conditions:

*An engine survey....
*full survey....
*sea trial...
*Financing...

Knowing that you're up against a lawyer owner here, I hope that your contract
was worded such that he will hesitate to take you to court to force you to hand
over the money, or keep your deposit. I have heard some funny (well, let's say
peculiar) stories about sellers who demanded lots o' cash because the buyer's
conditions were worded "subject to survey" and did not specify that it had to be
acceptable to the buyer only.

When we bought our boat, one of the things I did was to get a "standard sales
contract" from several brokers, go over it with a lawyer, and write up my own
sales contract which accompanied all our offers. Several brokers did not want to
play this game, to which I always replied "OK, there's a lot of other boats for
sale we want to check out, bye." The boat we eventually bought accepted our
contract the second time, although the bank tried to play some funny business.

It never ceases to amaze me the types of games people will play for money.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

5th Florida Trip Report (much shorter, this time)

Hi, Doug,

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:

Well, really, this is more of a preview than a report...
....(snip for brevity)
..... This offer was accepted. ....We included several conditions:

*An engine survey....
*full survey....
*sea trial...
*Financing...

Knowing that you're up against a lawyer owner here, I hope that your
contract
was worded such that he will hesitate to take you to court to force you to
hand
over the money, or keep your deposit. I have heard some funny (well, let's
say
peculiar) stories about sellers who demanded lots o' cash because the
buyer's
conditions were worded "subject to survey" and did not specify that it had
to be
acceptable to the buyer only.

Since I didn't actually see it - Lydia prepared it, and faxed it from her
office - I can't say definitively what the conditions' language was/were.
However, the money is in escrow with our broker, and certainly, that's
*their* construction of our offer.

When we bought our boat, one of the things I did was to get a "standard
sales
contract" from several brokers, go over it with a lawyer, and write up my
own
sales contract which accompanied all our offers. Several brokers did not
want to
play this game, to which I always replied "OK, there's a lot of other
boats for
sale we want to check out, bye." The boat we eventually bought accepted
our
contract the second time, although the bank tried to play some funny
business.

It never ceases to amaze me the types of games people will play for money.

No kidding. However, in this case, the lawyer screwed up, and faxed a
signed copy of the deal to my broker. However, the listing broker had
received an addendum which basically rewrote the selling broker's contract
(looking to bill the estate more??), but also halving the difference between
our offer and his counter. My broker's position is that we have a signed
copy of our counter, and demanded assurance from the lister that this would
not be an issue, which assurance he received.

We're quite prepared to walk, though it would absolutely break Lydia's
heart, if it became an issue. Absent an included addendum, however, my
broker's position is that we have an accepted offer without same, and that
seems acceptable to the seller, particularly since it was his error.

However, I remain on my guard :{/)

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

5th Florida Trip Report (much shorter, this time)

Hi, Dan,

"Dan Best" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
*documentation - at the moment, the boat is a FL registered, not
documented,

Skip,
This should be a non-issue. Our Tayana was CA registered when we bought
it. Getting it documented was just a matter of filling out a form and
sending it in along with a simple copy of the state ownership
certificate ("pink slip"). When the state registration came up for
renewal, I just sent it back along with a note stating the boat had been
documented and a copy of the documentation certificate and haven't heard
from them since.

We don't anticipate any issue whatever - other than a benefit to us of a
thoroughly searched title and resolution of any issues which may remain as a
product of the death of one of the owners (I'm still bothered by the listing
continuing to trumpet this as an estate sale, but the lister asserting it to
be free and clearly the property of an attorney not deceased).

I agree that you should get IN WRITING a statement that says either that
no more gear will be removed or listing what gear currently on board
will not be included in the sale.

I'll eagerly await same :{))

On the tax issue, be aware if you don't pay FL tax, your state may
demand it. CA works that way, though there is an way to avoid it as
long as you take delivery and keep the boat out of the country for a
specific period and can document the fact that not only was this so, but
that you actually used it (it's not enough to just let it sit in a
marina). I don't know if just having it worked on would satisfy our
state tax collector or not (let along, yours).

Our situation will clearly fit, I believe. Both the US and British Virgin
Islands brokerages make a big deal out of 'no sales taxes in the Virgin
Islands' in their ads. Since that is where we'll have our hailing port and
documentation, and proceed directly to (well, with a rather long journey in
between to see the islands through which we'll pass and not likely return to
see later), where we live now won't even know about it, I don't figure. In
the case of FL, they have rather stringent requirements about documenting
your removal from the state (20 days max to leave, 30 days to submit
documentation of same via dockage, fuel purchase, or something else out of
state, with the boat clearly identified on the receipt), and if it never
comes to my state, I think we'd be doubly clear there.

Best of luck - Dan

Heh. Thanks. As much effort as went into the search, this one is a lot
tougher for me. There's entirely too many places this can fall apart, and
all of them are expensive to discover. A prior wise-guy thread about the
'real' cost of the boat identified some of the costs we've incurred. All of
the prior costs combined won't equal the costs of the discovery process on
this boat...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, by proxy

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

5th Florida Trip Report (much shorter, this time)

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Since that is where we'll have our hailing port and
documentation, and proceed directly to ... where we
live now won't even know about it, I don't figure. In
the case of FL, they have rather stringent requirements about documenting
your removal from the state...

I'm no expert, but if FL is the same as CA, you must take delivery
offshore and proceed directly to out of the country. If you take
delivery in CA, then leave you owe the sales tax. Where delivery is
taken makes all the difference. I'm not trying to throw a wrench in the
works, just saying to make sure you understand the rules FL goes by.

I've got my fingers crossed for you guys - Dan

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG