On 2007-11-03 07:02:47 -0400, "JimB" said:

YES! And the test of good anchoring is to check that your anchor holds
aginst full astern.

Maybe, but only AFTER it's been set and settled in for a while with
lesser strain. It's so amusing to watch someone immediately punch it
and drag through the most friendly anchorages.

With our Maxprop, full reverse will drag pretty much any anchor if it
isn't thoroughly buried first, and we have 20 HP.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2007110313362816807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2007-11-03 07:02:47 -0400, "JimB" said:

YES! And the test of good anchoring is to check that your anchor holds
aginst full astern.

Maybe, but only AFTER it's been set and settled in for a while with lesser
strain. It's so amusing to watch someone immediately punch it and drag
through the most friendly anchorages.

With our Maxprop, full reverse will drag pretty much any anchor if it
isn't thoroughly buried first, and we have 20 HP.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/


This is a lesson I learned early on. Anchoring for me is two minute
process. The anchor needs time to settle in. I usually watch it (my 'old'
style CQR) go down and lay, pay out some chain & let the boat pull it tight,
pay out more....eventually with more than enough scope out & several tugs, I
reverse the engine & wait then gradually begin to increase rpm but not to
max. Sometimes on a rode that's not all chain, where I've not room for max
scope, I've used mushroom/river anchors clipped onto the rode with an extra
line to hold the rode down (simulating larger scope). I usually use the
dingy to hand-over-hand out on the rode to deploy these.

I'm no expert anchorer but my experience has taught me that care & thought
in anchoring (vs. drop & run) has more to do with anchor performance than
the type & weight of anchor. One cannot assume that because an anchor is
overboard that it is set. Care in setting my smaller secondary CQR in less
than ideal bottom has seen us stay put in blows 50+ knots...where the boat
is rising and falling in the swells & shuttering with the gusts. I have
also had boats drag around me in a great anchorage with good protection &
holding in pretty moderate breeze (because they dumped the anchor & chain
overboard & ran for the bar).

Glenn.
s/v Seawing.

On Nov 4, 9:42 am, "Glenn \(s/v Seawing\)"
wrote:
I'm no expert anchorer but my experience has taught me that care & thought
in anchoring (vs. drop & run) has more to do with anchor performance than
the type & weight of anchor.

If your experience is limited to your CQR and/or the other old types,
which it almost certainly is if you stick with the plow, it is no
surprise that you think this.

Naturally care and attention, guided by expertise, are important
factors. But this sweeping comment is like saying it doesn't matter
what car you drive, no difference between a Corolla and a Ferrari -
all that matters is the ability of the driver.

The nice thing about feedback from "early adopters" of the new
generation anchors is that those users typically DO also have
experience with the older types, be it plows or claws or some
variation. The resulting feedback is thus doubly valuable, because it
is COMPARATIVE.

On Nov 3, 11:56 pm, "JimB" wrote:
I also note that Rocna has added an addendum to the article which plots
performance against different criteria to show the Rocna in a more
favourable light. Other high performance anchors could choose other criteria
to show their designs as superior - but they've chosen not to.

The real point is, it's difficult to differentiate between all these high
performance anchors, so it doesn't matter a stuff which you choose.

No Jim, the chart shows the complete averaged summary data of West
Marine and SAIL's 2006 testing on a totally fair size-for-size basis.
It is the most complete picture of this testing that can be shown
concisely, despite the squawks from Rocna's competitors and attempts
to muddy the waters.

As to differentiating factors, perhaps West Marine's own summary
comments could be of assistance. On the top three anchors with the
highest holding power:

Delta: "Variable results ranging from around 1,500lb. to 4,500lb.
Drags at limit."
Spade: "Somewhat mixed results with three OK pulls, and three maximum
pulls. Set immediately each time."
Rocna: "Superb, consistent performance. Held a minimum of 4,500lb and
engaged immediately."

These are in their entirety (short I know) and verbatim. Again,
concise and complete - this is no cherry picking or careful selection
of out-of-context quotes. Anyway, the point is, I don't think that
West finds it so "difficult to differentiate between all these high
performance anchors".

The remaining contenders below the Delta figured topped out at only
just over half that of the Rocna, with Manson's Rocna copy so badly
compromised that it even failed to beat the WASI Beugel, which is as
you correctly comment the original "roll-bar" anchor - from the early
80s! Why? Not because it didn't perform well (it did, a few times) -
but because it couldn't perform consistently.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 11:02:47 -0000, "JimB" wrote:

YES! And the test of good anchoring is to check that your anchor holds
aginst full astern.

Heh. Full astern on a substantial twin engine trawler is about 15,000
pounds of thrust. Not today, thanks.

Of course. Sorry, speaking as a sail person. But you'd have a good idea what
your suitable astern revs were to check proper holding?
--
JimB
Google 'jimb sail' or go www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com
Compares Cruise areas of Europe

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2007110313362816807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2007-11-03 07:02:47 -0400, "JimB" said:

YES! And the test of good anchoring is to check that your anchor holds
aginst full astern.

Maybe, but only AFTER it's been set and settled in for a while with lesser
strain. It's so amusing to watch someone immediately punch it and drag
through the most friendly anchorages.

With our Maxprop, full reverse will drag pretty much any anchor if it
isn't thoroughly buried first, and we have 20 HP.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

I did say 'holds', as apart from 'set'. I assumed that no-one is foolish
enough to try and set a anchor with full power, or with inertia forces
present. Apart from the fact that it's bad technique with old plough anchors
and flat anchors, with a quick setting modern anchor there's a high risk
you'd screw the winch apart, if you didn't pull it out of the deck.
--
JimB
Google 'jimb sail' or go www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com
Compares Cruise areas of Europe

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:19:34 -0000, "JimB" wrote:

Of course. Sorry, speaking as a sail person. But you'd have a good idea what
your suitable astern revs were to check proper holding?

I ususally start with one engine at idle speed which generates about
600 lbs of thrust, then reverse the second engine for a total of
around 1,200 lbs. That will take the catenary out of 3/8ths chain and
begin to stretch a 7/8ths 3 strand nylon hook line. If I want to
really ensure a good set I'll bring the engines up to 900 RPM or so
which begins to really stretch out the hook line. I'd estimate well
over 2,000 lbs of pull at that point with the engines putting out
around 40 hp each into 30 inch 4 bladed props.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:19:34 -0000, "JimB" wrote:

Of course. Sorry, speaking as a sail person. But you'd have a good idea
what
your suitable astern revs were to check proper holding?

I ususally start with one engine at idle speed which generates about
600 lbs of thrust, then reverse the second engine for a total of
around 1,200 lbs. That will take the catenary out of 3/8ths chain and
begin to stretch a 7/8ths 3 strand nylon hook line. If I want to
really ensure a good set I'll bring the engines up to 900 RPM or so
which begins to really stretch out the hook line. I'd estimate well
over 2,000 lbs of pull at that point with the engines putting out
around 40 hp each into 30 inch 4 bladed props.

Great. Should look after a good F7 as long as there's not too much seaway.
It always amazes me how so many people don't test their set, then wonder why
they drag.

Another bit of useful info you get from testing is how much rode you need
for your anchor. Some stick beautifully at 4:1, others need 6:1 minimum.
--
JimB
Google 'jimb sail' or go www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com
Compares Cruise areas of Europe

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:37:52 -0800, Gordon wrote:

Researching anchors and keep popping up testimonials on how
absolutely great the new Rocnas are! Always set the first time, never
drag in any bottom, yada, yada.
Then I realized why! They size them twice the size of other anchors!
My boat calls for a 15 kg Bruce for 60 knot winds.
A 35# CQR. (16 kg) and
A whopping 33 kg for Rocna!

So does this mean the Rocna design is so lousy it takes twice the
weight to work properly?

Gordon



Of course most people brag about their anchors ...
That's probably because they found one that works for them. I have one
anchor that I favor 'cause it seems to work everywhere I go but then the
bottom doesn't change much.

Jim

Gordon wrote:
Researching anchors and keep popping up testimonials on how absolutely
great the new Rocnas are! Always set the first time, never drag in any
bottom, yada, yada.
Then I realized why! They size them twice the size of other anchors!
My boat calls for a 15 kg Bruce for 60 knot winds.
A 35# CQR. (16 kg) and
A whopping 33 kg for Rocna!

So does this mean the Rocna design is so lousy it takes twice the
weight to work properly?

Gordon
And for anyone looking for the Manson,


http://www.azuremarine.com/e1en/grou...on.asp#supreme

They seem to have better prices than West.

Jim.