For the last couple of months, my sailing club has been trying to get
me to buy a new 35' cruising boat to lease back to them. As a result,
I've researched sailboat purchasing, operating expenses, taxes,
financing and depreciation. After reviewing their offer as well as
lease-back programs at SailTime and Sunsail, I've come to the
conclusion that a shared ownership would provide significantly more
sailing time for my money, assuming I can find appropriate and
sufficient co-owners.

I'm thinking 4-8 people could form an LLC to own & operate a mid-30'
sailboat in Boston, used primarily for 1-2 week cruises. It looks
like it would work out to about $1500/yr per 1/8 share for all
expenses, plus the cost of the boat itself.

I'd be interested in the experience of anyone who has shared boat
ownership. How did you structure the ownership? How did you handle
scheduling? Any pitfalls to be aware of? Any general advice?
Chuck Cox
SynchroSystems - embedded computer design - http://synchro.com

my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

On 2007-10-24 11:51:00 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

Leaseback with aircraft almost always turn out to be a poor deal for the
owner. I can't think of any intrinsic reason why it would be different with
boats.

Most times, leaseback of charter boats is a money-loser, or the charter
companies would own their fleet.

Getting the right co-owners will be the trick.

In my friends' experience, that's quite true. Even if the "marriage"
starts out okay, as things-to-do pile up, relations are strained.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:17:03 -0400, Chuck Cox wrote:

For the last couple of months, my sailing club has been trying to get
me to buy a new 35' cruising boat to lease back to them. As a result,
I've researched sailboat purchasing, operating expenses, taxes,
financing and depreciation. After reviewing their offer as well as
lease-back programs at SailTime and Sunsail, I've come to the
conclusion that a shared ownership would provide significantly more
sailing time for my money, assuming I can find appropriate and
sufficient co-owners.

Would you share the calculations, in brief?

I'm thinking 4-8 people could form an LLC to own & operate a mid-30'
sailboat in Boston, used primarily for 1-2 week cruises. It looks
like it would work out to about $1500/yr per 1/8 share for all
expenses, plus the cost of the boat itself.

I'd be interested in the experience of anyone who has shared boat
ownership. How did you structure the ownership? How did you handle
scheduling? Any pitfalls to be aware of? Any general advice?
Chuck Cox


Two Cox!

--
That's *COX* not *COCKS* as in åãÙ

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:42:59 -0400, Adam Cox "
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:17:03 -0400, Chuck Cox wrote:

For the last couple of months, my sailing club has been trying to get
me to buy a new 35' cruising boat to lease back to them. As a result,
I've researched sailboat purchasing, operating expenses, taxes,
financing and depreciation. After reviewing their offer as well as
lease-back programs at SailTime and Sunsail, I've come to the
conclusion that a shared ownership would provide significantly more
sailing time for my money, assuming I can find appropriate and
sufficient co-owners.

Would you share the calculations, in brief?

In a typical 5 year lease-back scenario, you would buy a boat with 20%
down and a 15 year 7% loan. The lease payments would just cover the
loan payments. At the end of the lease the loan balance would be
about 60% of the original boat cost. Supposedly the boat will have
depreciated 30%, leaving you with 10% equity.

For your initial investment of 20% of the boat price, you get 5 years
of sailing privileges plus supposed tax breaks and 10% equity. My
fairly conservative accountant disagrees with most of the tax break
claims. You may recover that equity if you sell, but there is also
risk of loss, especially if you have to pay brokerage or docking fees.

The sailing time works out to about 1/8 of the available time and
retails for roughly 3.5% of the original boat cost per year. So the
retail value of 5 years of sailing is about 18% of the original boat
cost.

If 4 people bought a similar boat with the same financing, they would
each pay 5% down and about 4% per year to own and operate it in
Boston. In reality, you would probably pay more down and buy a used
boat, resulting in even lower annual costs.

The one tax break I do intend to take advantage of is the interest
deduction for the first $100k of home equity I use to buy a boat.
Depending on your tax bracket and credit rating, your effective
interest rate should be significantly lower than a typical boat loan.

Chuck Cox
SynchroSystems - embedded computer design - http://synchro.com

my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:00:54 -0400, Chuck Cox wrote:

In a typical 5 year lease-back scenario, you would buy a boat with 20%
down and a 15 year 7% loan. The lease payments would just cover the
loan payments. At the end of the lease the loan balance would be
about 60% of the original boat cost. Supposedly the boat will have
depreciated 30%, leaving you with 10% equity.

Better buy a Hatteras

Lessee (ha!) now, $1M cost, $200K down, the rest flushes out Monthly.
Your boat is worth $700K net at term end, you have a $600K residual,
leaves $100K +/-

For your initial investment of 20% of the boat price, you get 5 years
of sailing privileges plus supposed tax breaks and 10% equity. My
fairly conservative accountant disagrees with most of the tax break
claims. You may recover that equity if you sell, but there is also
risk of loss, especially if you have to pay brokerage or docking fees.

A couple of things. I assume all operating costs are split fairly.

You have a considerable loss of present value money in the equity
investment. $200K over 5 years less the FV of the equity drives a new
look at the equation.

For e.g. if you put in $200,000 for your 20%, you would lose the minimum
of 3% per year ($6K Year One then compounded), a typical savings acct
(more or less). Very roughly, that's 40K (app. the FV of the compounded
income stream with 60n as term), near equal to half of your return of
10% on this $1M boat. And everything has to go well, no large claims,
great maintenance, etc.

The sailing time works out to about 1/8 of the available time and
retails for roughly 3.5% of the original boat cost per year. So the
retail value of 5 years of sailing is about 18% of the original boat
cost.

If 4 people bought a similar boat with the same financing, they would
each pay 5% down and about 4% per year to own and operate it in
Boston. In reality, you would probably pay more down and buy a used
boat, resulting in even lower annual costs.

But higher maintenance, again, boat dependent.

The one tax break I do intend to take advantage of is the interest
deduction for the first $100k of home equity I use to buy a boat.
Depending on your tax bracket and credit rating, your effective
interest rate should be significantly lower than a typical boat loan.

Chuck Cox
SynchroSystems - embedded computer design - http://synchro.com

my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

I've run these numbers myself, I can't disagree with much but there is
considerable "play" and most of that is downsided.

Albeit, it may be the best *cheapest) proposition for what you are tryig
to accomplish.

The other issue is the financing as the weak credit dog will tend to
diminish the others and drive rates up. 7% on a 15 amort is kow level
costing I would think (factory buydowns not included).
--
That's *COX* not *COCKS* as in åãÙ