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#21
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:03:07 -0400, Michael Porter
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:26:10 -0400, Michael Porter wrote: wrote: Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) chuckle yep! but that's usually the fault of owners who want everything including the kitchen sink in a 30' boat but won't accept the loss of accommodation space to a proper engineroom. Or of marketing types ditto. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Marine Design mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com Do you mean that 3 staterooms, en suite, is not standard in a 30 footer? And the lounge wouldn't normally seat 10 for a formal meal? And where will the crew's quarters be? My goodness, what are you people doing with all that computer help it should be simple. =:-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) Yeah, well . . . most designers are a little brain-damaged, I guess. why else would we be in a field where you have to do a lot of work and make very little money? I have spent far too much time upside-down with my head in the bilges of gold-platers trying to fix something I could deal with in 20 min if I had it on a bench in front of me to have a very good opinion of production "yachts", especially the fancy ones. No doubt a pernicious conspiracy between marketing people and owners with the express purpose of frustrating designers and boatyard workers. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Marine Design mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com From all the articles about "how to design a yacht" I've always assumed that the first task was to design a hull having the desired properties; second, design a rig that wouldn't't fall over; third, figure our how to house the crew; and lastly how to cram the motor in .... somewhere. Logical, perhaps, but highly frustrating when you can see something but can't reach it to adjust it... Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
#22
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
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#23
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
On Aug 17, 4:06 am, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This is the most common engine installed in the class. It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure. I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Come on Bruce, boat designers know what they are doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F_GW1ep5ls Joe |
#24
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:34:00 -0700, Joe
wrote: On Aug 17, 4:06 am, wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This is the most common engine installed in the class. It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure. I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Come on Bruce, boat designers know what they are doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F_GW1ep5ls Joe Well, of course you are correct - HOWEVER - what they are doing is perhaps not what I wish they had been doing when I am working on a boat. For example, I'm sure that America's Cup boats are designed to be the most efficient sailing boats in the world, but I doubt very much that the designer gave much thought to changing the filters on the auxiliary engine..... On the other hand, if I were paying for the design of an America's Cup boat perhaps I would have less interest in how to change the filters..... As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
#25
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
wrote in message ... As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats. The little woman does not have any idea about what things should take priority. About the difference between a good boat and a poor boat. To women a big apartment-size galley is a must have. And a big bathroom with hot shower and vanity and lots of lights for putting on make-up. Also a very large dinette is a must so she can cook and entertain. And a refrigerator/freezer (stand up, of course). Never mind the boat won't sail. Never mind the cockpit's impossible large. Never mind the tankage puts the boat well below her lines. Never mind you can't get to the motor because kitchen cabinets are built all around it. Never mind you have to ship two thousand pounds of batteries and inverters to run her blow dryer, clothes dryer, and microwave. Never mind all those large dangerous windows she's just got to have so it looks like a house from inside. Nope, just built a boat like a floating apartment and the women will say. "That's the one I want." You know what's really more disgraceful than this? It's the man who knows he's buying a piece of crap but does it anyway just to please the little woman. Wilbur Hubbard |
#26
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: Never mind the boat won't sail The old lady might be happy with a decent powerboat, and you don't need high speed or big thirsty engine[s]. If you can install them low enough to serve as useful ballast for your displacement hull boat, then by all means have a ton of batteries. I am sixty years old, with a bad heart, and I dont't want a sailboat, although they certainly have their place. Casady |
#27
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Never mind the boat won't sail The old lady might be happy with a decent powerboat, and you don't need high speed or big thirsty engine[s]. If you can install them low enough to serve as useful ballast for your displacement hull boat, then by all means have a ton of batteries. I am sixty years old, with a bad heart, and I dont't want a sailboat, although they certainly have their place. I'm sixty years old myself with an excellent heart. I've taken care of myself. I've eaten right, I've exercised all my long life and still do - three hours a day competitive cycle training. I'm on pace to have more than 10,000 miles this year. I can do a 40K individual time trial in under 62 minutes. I'm not fat. 5'10" at 160 pounds. My resting heart rate is 35-40bpm. My max heart rate is 170bpm. My VO2 max is 75 ml/kg. I can pedal for hours at 85 to 95% of my max heart rate. I can sprint my up to 40mph on a level road with calm winds. I've never smoked. Never will. I can sail single-handed and can handle my ground tackle without windlass or winch. I can swim for miles and swim fast up to my boat's bow when it's anchored, pop up out of the water and grab the bow pulpit and swing myself up on deck using it. I can run, jump eat good meals without suffering from heartburn or what's that other overeater's disorder?? Oh yeah, acid reflux. You people who live with 'bad hearts' have done it to yourselves. You never took care of yourself. You can't expect to be healthy unless you live a healthy lifestyle. That includes eating right and exercising. That's another area where women are bad for you. Most of them kill you with the food they cook for you. All saturated fats and sugars and cholesterol. Wilbur Hubbard |
#28
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
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#29
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
On 2007-08-16 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long" said:
I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats Our Yanmar doesn't even have provisions for a crank, and the flywheel's too small to give much momentum (yeah, I know there's a more accurate word) anyway. At the risk of being repetative, we've found that our little 12v solar cell will bring the "better" battery up enough to start the engine in a few hours' sun, faster if the decompression levers are thrown for the spin-up. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
#30
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Well, wadda you know?
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: wrote in message .. . As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats. The little woman does not have any idea about what things should take priority. About the difference between a good boat and a poor boat. To women a big apartment-size galley is a must have. And a big bathroom with hot shower and vanity and lots of lights for putting on make-up. Also a very large dinette is a must so she can cook and entertain. And a refrigerator/freezer (stand up, of course). Never mind the boat won't sail. Never mind the cockpit's impossible large. Never mind the tankage puts the boat well below her lines. Never mind you can't get to the motor because kitchen cabinets are built all around it. Never mind you have to ship two thousand pounds of batteries and inverters to run her blow dryer, clothes dryer, and microwave. Never mind all those large dangerous windows she's just got to have so it looks like a house from inside. Nope, just built a boat like a floating apartment and the women will say. "That's the one I want." You know what's really more disgraceful than this? It's the man who knows he's buying a piece of crap but does it anyway just to please the little woman. Wilbur Hubbard Willie, you know so little about boats that it is very difficult to discuss them with you. I mentioned in my post that this was a Farr 40, which is one of the most successful boats that have ever been designed, It is an all out racing boat. It has an open cockpit, nearly a third of the length of the boat to give the helmsman and rope handlers plenty of room. It has a small galley because these people are racing, not eating gourmet meals and extra equipment makes the boat weigh more. There are large areas of the deck where carbon fiber is used and they don't paint these areas -- to save weight. The running back stays have the cover stripped off the kevlar core from just above the height that a crew member can reach up to the mast because the cover has weight that isn't needed and as one of the crew said, "that cover missing up there is equal to one more man sitting on the rail. Their battery bank is just large enough to keep the nav lights and instruments going for the length of the race. The tanks are as small as possible and in the better crewed boats the length of the race X an adequate amount of water per man per day is all that is carried. The better crews also weigh each man's gear before they bring it aboard and if you are over weight you take out enough to get the load down to the limit - say, 5 pounds - or they don't load your bag. But then, as Malcolm Forbes said, "The dumbest people I know are those who know it all." You must have some rather odd fetishes as you seem to like to put your foot in your mouth so much. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
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