I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to
play around a little more.



I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand
starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than
while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system
disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery
management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a
20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable.



I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy
brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass
structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn
the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting
it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the
inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you
continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work.



I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats
unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO
perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing
that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has
persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the
notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This
is the most common engine installed in the class.



It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle.



I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart
and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over
the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some
structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars
on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an
engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure.
I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive
and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat
owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start
without a functioning battery and electrical system.



--

Roger Long

On Aug 17, 7:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote:

I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart
and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over
the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some
structure with a bearing is provided.

Or you could add a spring starter.

Browse http://www.springstarter.com/

"Roger Long" wrote:

I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty
extensive
and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of
larger boat
owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to
start
without a functioning battery and electrical system.

Simple solution.

1) Learn to single hand the boat in and out of dock with just the jib
and a dock line.
2) Learn to single hand the boat to pick up a mooring with just a jib
and a boat hook.

After you have acquired those skills, you will have achieved a degree
of freedom you will never forget.

The ability to say, "Screw the engine, I don't need it", provides a
sense of satisfaction you simply can't describe.

BTDT, don't need the T-shirt.

Lew

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I
wanted to play around a little more.



I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand
starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock
than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some
electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability
factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this
newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is
near the edge of feasibility but doable.



I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy
brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass
structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to
turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting
requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed
and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully)
kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is
no way this could begin to work.

You've got to spin it up with the decompression cable pulled. Then when
you get it turning as fast as you can you release the decompression
cable or lever at the same time. The handle pinion should be spring
loaded to kick the shaft out and release it as soon as the engine fires
up. But you can't do any of this with structure in the way.

My advice, get a sawzall and cut away the structure that's in the way
and hinge it there or pin it in place so the whole thing can be set
aside. What you got there is an example of retards building your boat.
Use a couple of teak battens to cover the cut.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Aug 16, 6:13 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to
play around a little more.

I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand
starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than
while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system
disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery
management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a
20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable.

I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy
brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass
structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn
the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting
it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the
inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you
continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work.

I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats
unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO
perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing
that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has
persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the
notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This
is the most common engine installed in the class.

It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle.

I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart
and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over
the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some
structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars
on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an
engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure.
I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive
and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat
owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start
without a functioning battery and electrical system.

--

Roger Long

Thats crazy..Got a picture? Whats the structure in the way?

My 12 hp hand cranking is hard enough, even if you have the room, I
bet a 20 HP will be a real back buster. However an extention to the
cranking handle sounds easy enough...Unless you had to find a super
rare lister hand crank and pay near 300 bucks for it...like the one in
the picture ziptied to a stantion..That would be heart breaking.

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/230...63212926OGssit

Joe

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart
and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over
the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some
structure with a bearing is provided.

This is not uncommon.

Since the most frequent "failure to start" scenario is dead batteries
I often recommend that folks carry a fully charged gel cell battery
totally disconnected from everything, and a set of jumper cables. Gel
cell batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and by storing it
totally disconnected you have very good assurance that it will be
there when you need it. It's a lot easier than hand cranking also.

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing
principle.



Roger, have you ever had her emergency tiller hooked up and cruised
around with it?

Lionheart, an Amel Sharki 41 ketch, has a hole in the aft cabin overhead
and a beautifully-made mahogany tiller attachment to the rudder post that
fits through that hole so you can steer her from standing on the aft
cabin with the equally-beautifully-made mahogany tiller handle.

You never know when her triple redundant electromechanical B&G Pilot or
massively cabled steering wheel are going to fail....(c;

"Real Sailors", of course, will leave the tiller handle in place and just
remove the wheel and autopilot....(c;

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to
play around a little more.



I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand
starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than
while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system
disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery
management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a
20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable.



I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy
brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass
structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn
the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting
it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the
inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you
continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work.



I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats
unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO
perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing
that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has
persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the
notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This
is the most common engine installed in the class.



It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle.



I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart
and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over
the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some
structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars
on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an
engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure.
I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive
and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat
owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start
without a functioning battery and electrical system.


Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats?

Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save
space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you
can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-)





Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

"Lew Hodgett" wrote

Simple solution.

1) Learn to (be a competent sailor)

Excellent advice and already followed. I used to sail the Solings backwards
around Boston Harbor to the amusement of the other club members.

Daysailing is tough without an engine unless you can completely ignore the
schedules of shore life.

Maine also has some combinations of calm, tide, and steep shores that would
make you want to stay pretty far out if sailing without an engine, at least
in modern boats. There is a reason why the traditional craft had such huge
rigs and reefed in 8 - 10 knots of wind.

--
Roger Long

"Joe" wrote

Thats crazy..Got a picture? Whats the structure in the way?

The structure is the fiberglass molding that makes up the entire galley
structure. It's not like some worker put some trim on in the wrong place or
an owner made some modifications.

The reason I would be leery about an extension on the handle is that the
mechanism that prevents the handle turning when the engine starts and
breaking your arm is pretty minimalist. (Looks like the Lister is similar).
A little extra friction in the shaft both would transmit torque and keep the
shaft from sliding forward enough for the lugs to disengage. I'm sure the
force of shattering your forearm would loosen it up enough so that the
handle didn't go spinning around but it would be small comfort at that
point. The combination of extra handle weight and turning force acting over
the longer lever arm would considerably increase the friction on the shaft.

I think I'm going to clean up the whole rig by taking the mechanism off and
going the emergency battery route. You sound like a big guy and, if your 12
hp is that hard to get going, it's another vote that starting this 20 hp
engine cold would be unlikely.

I've got pictures but they are on the office computer and I won't be there
for a few days.

--
Roger Long