Yes, you have a steel boat. I'm a metal boat designer and I would love to
have one exactly because you can have stanchions and gear as rugged as you
describe. Money makes it a choice between no boat and fiberglass for me
though. Fiberglass is plenty strong enough to be seaworthy but, even if I
do put larger backing blocks under my stanchions someday, I still won't want
people pushing on them routinely.

--
Roger Long

On Aug 13, 10:09 pm, " wrote:
...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

I would think that Roger had the best outcome possible, the BFF will
not bother him again.

Why do you guys think that a captain of a vessel should allow
strangers to interfere with the operation of that vessel ?

Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Todd Smith

wrote

(some common sense)

Finally, some sanity. Thanks, Todd.

I think a trace back through this thread by the uninvolved would show the
common newsgroup dynamic of always jumping to demonstrate the other person
wrong than actual analysis of vessel management issues. Put these things in
other contexts and there wouldn't be much debate.

Say you do accept help from one of the dockside BFF's. You say, "Please put
that spring on the middle cleat." He says, "No, I think you need your
bowline first.", and hauls it in tight mucking up your landing. Helping
means offering to assist and cooperate; not take over. The instruction in
this case (given three times politely) was basically to just stand and
watch. OK, you other guys, tell me where the fine line is.

You offer to help an old lady at the supermarket carry her packages. Maybe
she says, "Yes", gratefully. Maybe she says ,"No thank you dear, I'm quite
capable." You say you insist. Maybe now she relents and is grateful for
the help after having had a chance to assert her independence. Or, after
the third refusal, you reach over and grab her packages. On land, this is
now assault. You could be arrested. On the dock, the "old lady" is not
wrong for expressing surprise that the would be helper is now screaming at
her that she is a bitch? Now make the old lady an attractive girl who
clearly doesn't need the help (boat heading in slowly in calm conditions
with two big strong boys standing at the rail each with a dockline in their
hands) and it gets even weirder. The insistence and yelling, "bitch" part I
mean; not the offering to help.

When a docking does require, or would be easier with, more hands, you can
brief and prepare your crew. It isn't very practical to do that with people
on shore as you are making your landing. You don't know if they have a clue
or how they will react. Ask Rosalie.

Yeah, this has taken much too much time for such a minor event but, as a
writer and observer of human nature, I find these newsgroup exchanges a
fascinating laboratory for attitudes as well as an occasional source of
useful information.

--
Roger Long

On Aug 14, 7:51 am, wrote:
On Aug 13, 10:09 pm, " wrote:

...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

I would think that Roger had the best outcome possible, the BFF will
not bother him again.

The best outcome would be to approch the BFF after the event and
explain to him that you thank him for his efforts..... but if in the
future you see us on a day like this we would rather do it alone
because.....ect...ect.



Why do you guys think that a captain of a vessel should allow
strangers to interfere with the operation of that vessel ?

Sometimes you do not have the option..That part of being a good
captain..expecting hassles and dealing with them before they become an
issue. And the better captain will loose no respect from anyone if he
does it in the proper way.

Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Maybe he was a retard...perhaps he made a mistake, and as I said
thought the gel-coat might be damaged. If you become a true master at
handeling your boat, many lubbers will mistake your speed and actions
and want to correct what you know will correct itself. The classic
Capt. Ron landing where you approch the dock at around 30 degrees and
back hard to use wheel walk to float in and stop perfectly is seen as
Captn Ronish (risky) but it's the basic 101 boat handling that most
lubbers will never understand..They might think you are going to hit
the dock and insist on lending a hand.

You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.

Joe



Todd Smith

On Aug 14, 5:21 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
They found a body floating in the marina early yesterday morning. Maybe
someone else turned down help with their docklines.

--
Roger Long

Hope it was not the BFF.. After all you were last seen in a conflict
with him. ;0)

Joe

On Aug 14, 10:03 am, Joe wrote:
On Aug 14, 7:51 am, wrote:

On Aug 13, 10:09 pm, " wrote:

...If one of the
dockflys trys to stagger over and insist's on helping show him where
to put the line and thank him. ...

Amen! I understand Roger's angst but IMO, this is the best that can
be done.

-- Tom.

I would think that Roger had the best outcome possible, the BFF will
not bother him again.

The best outcome would be to approch the BFF after the event and
explain to him that you thank him for his efforts..... but if in the
future you see us on a day like this we would rather do it alone
because.....ect...ect.


That would have been the best approach if the BFF had taken the 1st or
maybe 2nd hint and not stormed off.


Why do you guys think that a captain of a vessel should allow
strangers to interfere with the operation of that vessel ?

Sometimes you do not have the option..That part of being a good
captain..expecting hassles and dealing with them before they become an
issue. And the better captain will loose no respect from anyone if he
does it in the proper way.

And sometimes dealing with hassles means ****ing people off.

The only way I see heading off this issue would be for Roger to
instruct his sons to leap on to the dock are clear the area with
belaying pins :-) That's a JOKE ! But for my instruction, how would
you head off this situation ?

Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Maybe he was a retard...perhaps he made a mistake, and as I said
thought the gel-coat might be damaged. If you become a true master at
handeling your boat, many lubbers will mistake your speed and actions
and want to correct what you know will correct itself. The classic
Capt. Ron landing where you approch the dock at around 30 degrees and
back hard to use wheel walk to float in and stop perfectly is seen as
Captn Ronish (risky) but it's the basic 101 boat handling that most
lubbers will never understand..They might think you are going to hit
the dock and insist on lending a hand.

You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.

I think that the important lesson for the BFF, is that he does not get
to insist.

Todd

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
They found a body floating in the marina early yesterday morning. Maybe
someone else turned down help with their docklines.

--
Roger Long



And, you were having lunch with three nuns at the time of death... :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Jere Lull wrote:

On 2007-08-12 21:06:01 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I
can step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that
I can't bring the stern in.

We avoid that by having the dock lines on the dock, properly sized with
a spliced loop: Drop and forget. Main one, of course, is the aft spring
which will keep us off the dock under full power (or a storm's winds).
That one's mine, as when it's made, I can put the bow anywhere I want.
We've been accused of having a bow thruster.

Lets us get in quickly enough that the dockmates can't stumble their
way *to* us in time enough to help ;-)

When we are coming into a strange slip, Bob rigs the lines before we
get there. If he knows we are coming into a face dock, he may only
rig them on one side, but most times he does both sides just in case.

[I'm always amazed when I see a boat approach the dock and suddenly
discover that they are going to need lines to tie up with and the
ensuing scramble to find the lines is also amusing. I've even seen a
shrimp boat (that had run out of fuel being pushed into the fuel dock
at Palmer Johnson in Thunderbolt by another shrimp boat) whose hand on
the deck threw the line to the dockmaster without attaching it to his
boat first. He threw the whole line.]

He attaches the lines to the cleats and puts them through the hawse
holes or the fairleads to the outside of the boat and then brings them
up and over the lifelines. That way I can throw a spring line to
someone on the dock, and it will be solidly attached to the boat.

However in our home slip, all the dock lines stay on the dock. There
is no need to throw a line to anyone. We leave them hung on hangers
on the pilings when we leave the slip (fixed dock), or lying on the
dock and I pick them up with the boat hook when we come back in. The
most anyone could do is to throw me a line to catch. He has sewn
chafe guards on the lines where they go through the hawse holes, so I
can then pull them in to the proper length and attach the lines to the
cleats.

We do have to stop the boat way back in the slip so that Bob can get
to the rear dock lines.

In my mind, Bob has too many dock lines, but I'm not going to argue
with him about it because his system works, and if it doesn't, he has
no one to blame but himself.

We have a finger pier on one side (three pilings - one at the end of
the finger pier, one in the middle and one at the end of the slip) and
a full length dock on the other side with a piling at the end and the
middle. He has 4 rear lines (2 spring crossed in the back), and 4
midship spring lines (2 each side), and 4 lines from the bow (2 each
side), and a couple of others in the middle that aren't spring lines.
I think I counted 14 dock lines when we were at the boat last week.

http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasle...fterisabel.jpg

This was a picture of the boat at low tide after hurricane Isabel in
2003. The water is still up about 18 inches (knee level) over the
dock. You can just about see the white edges of the dock through the
water and you can't see the finger pier at all. We had taken the
bimini down, but not the sails. The boat that was next to us had been
hauled. I waded out to the boat to see if everything was OK and took
this picture.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:44:13 -0400, Rosalie B.
wrote:

Jere Lull wrote:

On 2007-08-12 21:06:01 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

Almost every time I come in now, I can count on seeing a large friendly
fellow walking towards my slip to heave heroically on the top of the
lifeline stanchions to keep the boat from getting close enough that I
can step off instead of jumping or to heave the bow line so tight that
I can't bring the stern in.
boat last week.

http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasle...fterisabel.jpg

This was a picture of the boat at low tide after hurricane Isabel in
2003. The water is still up about 18 inches (knee level) over the
dock. You can just about see the white edges of the dock through the
water and you can't see the finger pier at all. We had taken the
bimini down, but not the sails. The boat that was next to us had been
hauled. I waded out to the boat to see if everything was OK and took
this picture.


Nice looking boat. How do you like the behind the mast furling system?
I built a similar system on my boat several years ago and wouldn;t be
without it now. I've got all lines rigged to the cockpit with a
smallish two speed winch to help pull on things when needed.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Aug 14, 9:29 am, wrote:


The only way I see heading off this issue would be for Roger to
instruct his sons to leap on to the dock are clear the area with
belaying pins :-)

I already suggested a well made monkey's fist.

That's a JOKE ! But for my instruction, how would
you head off this situation ?

If in a slip I'd yell to the BFF ..Hey buddie, run around to the
other side please...then ignore him till you tossed the last line to
him. Or a dock I'd yell to the person on the bow to tell him to put it
on the proper cleat...No big deal...if he started pushing on my weak
lifeline stancions i'd yell " Hey do not push on my weak lifeline
stancions" " Thank You". If I had water or beer soda ect.. I'd offer
him one and then explain to him that I prefer no assistance in future
and explain why.

Now if I felt he may be injured or a crew member may be injured then
I'd be stern enough in telling him to keep the f*%k out of the way
that he would have no doubts.


Especially a stranger so dense that it took 3 times for him to get the
hint.

Maybe he was a retard...perhaps he made a mistake, and as I said
thought the gel-coat might be damaged. If you become a true master at
handeling your boat, many lubbers will mistake your speed and actions
and want to correct what you know will correct itself. The classic
Capt. Ron landing where you approch the dock at around 30 degrees and
back hard to use wheel walk to float in and stop perfectly is seen as
Captn Ronish (risky) but it's the basic 101 boat handling that most
lubbers will never understand..They might think you are going to hit
the dock and insist on lending a hand.

You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.

I think that the important lesson for the BFF, is that he does not get
to insist.

I agree 100%.....but that's not the way things work most days, so you
just have to go with the flow. And when you a dealing with help
docking it can be a blessing when the BFF is there to help in truly
adverse conditions...why burn bridges?

Joe

Todd- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -