I can hit quite a few repeaters some of them 20+ miles
away on 2m just using a handheld with a rubber duckie
antenna. Clearly line-of-sight is not quite the case.
Repeater antennas are generally mounted high on towers
or buildings but my antenna is only 6' or so.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:45:14 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:05:02 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 05:06:35 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:31:13 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:29:19 -0500, Jean Dufour
wrote:

VHF waves work "line of sight". They may be slightly curved around
the horizon but
they won't be much. So, whatever the power of the transmiter is, they
won't reach
more than 25 miles before getting lost in space.

Well, not really. It all depends on antenna height. From the Jersey
shore, not only can I talk to the Cape May CG station, but also to
Baltimore and Chincoteague, Virginia. I have fairly reliable
communications with CG stations up to over 100 miles.

ducting...dangerous to rely on for reliable communications...

It must be a pretty reliable duct because I hear the Baltimore CG
station almost all the time from the Jersey Shore. It's faint of
course, but perfectly readable.


there are 2 considerations here.

1 is that hearing is not necessarily communications. that you can hear
them doesn't mean you can reliably communicate

I hear them almost all the time. The only times I've talked to the
baltimore station, they heard me.

the 2nd is that the ducting responsible for this can disappear,
literally, in a second.

I talked to the baltimore station a couple of times over the course of a
few hours. They heard me.

The point is that VHF signals *always* can go further than the
calculated straight line of sight horizon, and frequently can go much
further.

Steve

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:49:43 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

I can hit quite a few repeaters some of them 20+ miles
away on 2m just using a handheld with a rubber duckie
antenna. Clearly line-of-sight is not quite the case.
Repeater antennas are generally mounted high on towers
or buildings but my antenna is only 6' or so.

At 6', your line of sight is only 3 miles. However, if a repeater is
mounted on a tall tower, say 300', it's line of sight is 24 miles, for a
combined distance of 27 miles.

Steve

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:49:43 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

I can hit quite a few repeaters some of them 20+ miles
away on 2m just using a handheld with a rubber duckie
antenna. Clearly line-of-sight is not quite the case.
Repeater antennas are generally mounted high on towers
or buildings but my antenna is only 6' or so.

At 6', your line of sight is only 3 miles. However, if a repeater is
mounted on a tall tower, say 300', it's line of sight is 24 miles, for a
combined distance of 27 miles.

Steve

That would be true if I lived on a sphere or plane
We have hills and buildings and trees here and I live
in a river valley. Many obstructions between here and there.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:49:43 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

I can hit quite a few repeaters some of them 20+ miles
away on 2m just using a handheld with a rubber duckie
antenna. Clearly line-of-sight is not quite the case.
Repeater antennas are generally mounted high on towers
or buildings but my antenna is only 6' or so.

At 6', your line of sight is only 3 miles. However, if a repeater is
mounted on a tall tower, say 300', it's line of sight is 24 miles, for a
combined distance of 27 miles.

Steve

That would be true if I lived on a sphere or plane
We have hills and buildings and trees here and I live
in a river valley. Many obstructions between here and there.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:49:43 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

I can hit quite a few repeaters some of them 20+ miles
away on 2m just using a handheld with a rubber duckie
antenna. Clearly line-of-sight is not quite the case.
Repeater antennas are generally mounted high on towers
or buildings but my antenna is only 6' or so.

At 6', your line of sight is only 3 miles. However, if a repeater is
mounted on a tall tower, say 300', it's line of sight is 24 miles, for a
combined distance of 27 miles.

Steve

Arguing about how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle IMO. If I
remember correctly, the question was: what's the difference between marine
vhf and ssb radio. The plain answer is, you will reach much further with an
ssb and if you don't wander more than 25 miles offshore (where personally, I
wouldn't rely solely on VHF, better be safe than sorry) , you don't need it!
End of line.

Jean

And for the sake of the angels' comfort, here's how ICOM explains the line of
sight issue:

from http://www.ybw.com/ybw/vhf/range.html

How far will your VHF work?

Many customers ask us about the range (distance) over which a radio can
communicate
and it is the most popular question, with the hardest answer.

Radio travels as waves, similar to light. Like light it can be reflected,
reduced or even
stopped by other objects. A popular response to the range question is ‘if you
can see it
you can talk to it’ (known as line-of-sight) and this is generally a good
guide.

Remember however that the radio signal comes from the radio aerial (not the
radio
itself) and therefore using a higher antenna allows the radio to ‘see’
further. The same
rules apply for receiving a signal, although of course base station aerials
are mounted on
very high masts and have much higher power, which is another influencing
factor.

A stronger, more powerful light can be seen further and more clearly and the
same
applies to radio. Power is measured in Watts (abbreviated ‘W’)and the higher
the power
the further the range, but it’s not quite that simple. Even a very low power
can give some
range. Power can be used to improve the quality of signal and to overcome
some
obstacles.

(snip)

Because VHF travels in straight lines, like light, as you travel away from
land the
curvature of the Earth prevents the signal from reaching you. This happens
between
35-50 miles offshore. If you still need to communicate beyond those distances
you need
to look for some other way of doing it.

Arguing about how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle IMO. If I
remember correctly, the question was: what's the difference between marine
vhf and ssb radio. The plain answer is, you will reach much further with an
ssb and if you don't wander more than 25 miles offshore (where personally, I
wouldn't rely solely on VHF, better be safe than sorry) , you don't need it!
End of line.

Jean

And for the sake of the angels' comfort, here's how ICOM explains the line of
sight issue:

from http://www.ybw.com/ybw/vhf/range.html

How far will your VHF work?

Many customers ask us about the range (distance) over which a radio can
communicate
and it is the most popular question, with the hardest answer.

Radio travels as waves, similar to light. Like light it can be reflected,
reduced or even
stopped by other objects. A popular response to the range question is ‘if you
can see it
you can talk to it’ (known as line-of-sight) and this is generally a good
guide.

Remember however that the radio signal comes from the radio aerial (not the
radio
itself) and therefore using a higher antenna allows the radio to ‘see’
further. The same
rules apply for receiving a signal, although of course base station aerials
are mounted on
very high masts and have much higher power, which is another influencing
factor.

A stronger, more powerful light can be seen further and more clearly and the
same
applies to radio. Power is measured in Watts (abbreviated ‘W’)and the higher
the power
the further the range, but it’s not quite that simple. Even a very low power
can give some
range. Power can be used to improve the quality of signal and to overcome
some
obstacles.

(snip)

Because VHF travels in straight lines, like light, as you travel away from
land the
curvature of the Earth prevents the signal from reaching you. This happens
between
35-50 miles offshore. If you still need to communicate beyond those distances
you need
to look for some other way of doing it.

But as many threads on this group, other aspects surface
during the course of the discussion. One such aspect is that
you will reach much farther with SSB but will there be anyone
there listening (ie CG).

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

ps. Happy Boxing Day!

"Jean Dufour" wrote in message
...
Arguing about how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle IMO. If I
remember correctly, the question was: what's the difference between marine
vhf and ssb radio. The plain answer is, you will reach much further with
an
ssb and if you don't wander more than 25 miles offshore (where personally,
I
wouldn't rely solely on VHF, better be safe than sorry) , you don't need
it!
End of line.

Jean

And for the sake of the angels' comfort, here's how ICOM explains the line
of
sight issue:

from http://www.ybw.com/ybw/vhf/range.html

How far will your VHF work?

Many customers ask us about the range (distance) over which a radio can
communicate
and it is the most popular question, with the hardest answer.

Radio travels as waves, similar to light. Like light it can be reflected,
reduced or even
stopped by other objects. A popular response to the range question is 'if
you
can see it
you can talk to it' (known as line-of-sight) and this is generally a good
guide.

Remember however that the radio signal comes from the radio aerial (not
the
radio
itself) and therefore using a higher antenna allows the radio to 'see'
further. The same
rules apply for receiving a signal, although of course base station
aerials
are mounted on
very high masts and have much higher power, which is another influencing
factor.

A stronger, more powerful light can be seen further and more clearly and
the
same
applies to radio. Power is measured in Watts (abbreviated 'W')and the
higher
the power
the further the range, but it's not quite that simple. Even a very low
power
can give some
range. Power can be used to improve the quality of signal and to overcome
some
obstacles.

(snip)

Because VHF travels in straight lines, like light, as you travel away from
land the
curvature of the Earth prevents the signal from reaching you. This happens
between
35-50 miles offshore. If you still need to communicate beyond those
distances
you need
to look for some other way of doing it.

But as many threads on this group, other aspects surface
during the course of the discussion. One such aspect is that
you will reach much farther with SSB but will there be anyone
there listening (ie CG).

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

ps. Happy Boxing Day!

"Jean Dufour" wrote in message
...
Arguing about how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle IMO. If I
remember correctly, the question was: what's the difference between marine
vhf and ssb radio. The plain answer is, you will reach much further with
an
ssb and if you don't wander more than 25 miles offshore (where personally,
I
wouldn't rely solely on VHF, better be safe than sorry) , you don't need
it!
End of line.

Jean

And for the sake of the angels' comfort, here's how ICOM explains the line
of
sight issue:

from http://www.ybw.com/ybw/vhf/range.html

How far will your VHF work?

Many customers ask us about the range (distance) over which a radio can
communicate
and it is the most popular question, with the hardest answer.

Radio travels as waves, similar to light. Like light it can be reflected,
reduced or even
stopped by other objects. A popular response to the range question is 'if
you
can see it
you can talk to it' (known as line-of-sight) and this is generally a good
guide.

Remember however that the radio signal comes from the radio aerial (not
the
radio
itself) and therefore using a higher antenna allows the radio to 'see'
further. The same
rules apply for receiving a signal, although of course base station
aerials
are mounted on
very high masts and have much higher power, which is another influencing
factor.

A stronger, more powerful light can be seen further and more clearly and
the
same
applies to radio. Power is measured in Watts (abbreviated 'W')and the
higher
the power
the further the range, but it's not quite that simple. Even a very low
power
can give some
range. Power can be used to improve the quality of signal and to overcome
some
obstacles.

(snip)

Because VHF travels in straight lines, like light, as you travel away from
land the
curvature of the Earth prevents the signal from reaching you. This happens
between
35-50 miles offshore. If you still need to communicate beyond those
distances
you need
to look for some other way of doing it.

Doug Dotson wrote:

But as many threads on this group, other aspects surface
during the course of the discussion.

Indeed, but I jumped back in because many people quoted me quite badly. Some
people looked like they couldn't read that I said VHF waves DO curve a bit. I
also found an informative link over the VHF range issue and shared this with
everyone! The 25 miles range I gave may have been underestimated, but it's
safer than overestimate it.

One such aspect is that
you will reach much farther with SSB but will there be anyone
there listening (ie CG).

Canadian CG listen to 2182 Khz. Maybe they'll give a call to USCG if they miss
somethin' in their jurisdiction! ;-) The bad thing here is they will hear your
distess call but they'll send an ol' Sea King chopper to the rescue. This might
be as life threatening as staying in the water! :-)))

Jean Dufour
Montreal, Qc