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Wilbur Hubbard wrote:


I understand because you're more like most of the people these days. But
that doesn't make it right or even productive.

Your daughter points out the difference in our outlooks. While your
daughter was anxious about your well-being mine just said, "Have fun,
Daddy, and be careful. I'll see you when you get back."

You raised your daughter to be just like her Dad - a dependent person
who worries. I raised mine to be just like me - an independent person
who doesn't worry. She's somebody who is secure and happy and does not
derive her happiness from an old man and I wouldn't have her any other
way . . .

Look at it this way. When you die your poor daughter will be
grief-stricken and lost while mine will say in her mind, "Fair winds,
Daddy, wherever you may be sailing now. It was good knowing you and I
will always love you for raising me to appreciate the way the world
works and to enjoy the positive and to reject the negative."


Now you know nothing about my dependency or independence. You also make
a great noise about being one salty seaman who is out there sailing the
seas (in what? where? with what crew?) while I know what I've done. For
sure, I can't prove to you that I have spent long time at sea both with
my (now late) wife and singlehanding. I also expect to be out there
again with my new wife.

I can't prove it to you nor can you prove to me that you can tell which
end of an oar goes in the water.

However, the blase claim you make about your daughter's attitude toward
you and even your death is chilling. For you to die and she to shrug her
shoulders and say, "Fair winds" and that's that isn't natural of humans.
Are you autistic? Is your daughter? I"m not teasing you. Instead I sense
in you not only a complete lack of affect, but an anger to those who
show affect.

-paul
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On Aug 2, 10:53 pm, Jere Lull wrote:


How much IS Iridium these days?



Try this:

http://store.sattransusa.com/irid-pho-9505a.html


Bob

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"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
.. .
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


wrote in message
oups.com...
... So you can cruise and you can
telephone. But it's not the same as doing one or the other and
doing
it
well. ...

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that I'm cruising less well
when, lets say, just for the sake of historical accuracy, I'm anchor
down in Kanton Atoll on a day when it's so calm I can't tell where
the air ends and the water starts and so hot that even the flies
have
taken cover in the shade I call my father on my Iridium phone? Are
you telling me that this offends you in some way? Do we need to be
reduced to sail cloth pants and latitude sailing to be cruising
"well"?

-- Tom.



And sooner or later your phone will make you lazy and inept just like
the poor fella further up this thread who couldn't even figure out
how
to get up the mast without making telephone calls and asking people
how to do it safely. That's pretty disgusting in my humble opinion.
People like him, when they get their friends advice about going up
the
mast, and then they manage to fall off will likely crawl to their
cell
phone, dial up their lawyer and enquire as to how to sue their
friends
for giving bad advice.



Ocne again you're making assumptions about things that you know
nothing
about. In this case I was calling someone who used to work for
Freedom
to ask what the load rating was for the flag halyard rollers. As it
turns out, the rollers designed to support a person. I wasn't about
to
go up the mast while underway without checking. It sounds like you
would have goen up as you wouldn't have had any other option. I did
and
I took it.


I have learned that making assumptions about things I know little or
nothing about is always a good way to get the straight skinny because it
motivates people to want to straighten me out. Flag halyard rollers(?)
do you mean sheeves? It seems to me pretty dumb to over engineer flag
halyard sheeves to carry the weight of a man. Going up a mast using the
old fashioned methods is totally unnecessary these days when mast steps
are easily installed. Again, you're sailing by committee. You have
somebody winch you up the mast, relying on flag halyard sheeves and
winches and their steady hand and shouting back and forth when you
should be going up the mast under your own power on steps. Doh! Such a
radical concept that.


You act like I know nothing about sailing. I typically spend 6-7
months
a year sailing and I've logged over 30,000 miles. I believe that know
a
lot about my boat and sailing. Check my web site if you have any
doubt.


I sort of can't seem to have much respect for people who go to sea with
an unstayed rig. It's an invitation to disaster or should I say,
dismasting?


You're just an arrogant SOB who thinks that everyone should do things
your way. Based upon your discourse in this and other threads, I'm
very
glad that most of the world isn't like you. I suggest that you go
back
to alt.sailing.asa where you're quite prolific and the people in that
group enjoy bashing one another.


I could do that but I think my logical sense of - doing it right, doing
it safe and knowing your boat like the back of your hand BEFORE you
decide to cruise or voyage needs to be emphasized. Bad habits beget more
bad habits. People read about phoning an engineer for something simple
like going up the mast and they think, OK, that's how I'll do it. Sorry,
but that's not the way it should be done. Consider what I do is set the
record straight. People can take it or leave it.

In my opinion, my relatives just have to accept the fact that I'll be
out of touch. I will not enable them to be worrywarts every time they
don't get a daily or weekly telephone call.


Did you ever consider that they don't want to hear from you if you act
this way towards them?


Possibly. They were raised by the same parents as I was. They share many
of the same attitudes. They are rugged individualists, too. Nothing
wrong with that. It's only Hillary and girly-men who really think it
takes a village . . .

Wilbur Hubbard

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"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. ..
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:


I understand because you're more like most of the people these days.
But that doesn't make it right or even productive.

Your daughter points out the difference in our outlooks. While your
daughter was anxious about your well-being mine just said, "Have fun,
Daddy, and be careful. I'll see you when you get back."

You raised your daughter to be just like her Dad - a dependent person
who worries. I raised mine to be just like me - an independent person
who doesn't worry. She's somebody who is secure and happy and does
not derive her happiness from an old man and I wouldn't have her any
other way . . .

Look at it this way. When you die your poor daughter will be
grief-stricken and lost while mine will say in her mind, "Fair winds,
Daddy, wherever you may be sailing now. It was good knowing you and I
will always love you for raising me to appreciate the way the world
works and to enjoy the positive and to reject the negative."


Now you know nothing about my dependency or independence. You also
make a great noise about being one salty seaman who is out there
sailing the seas (in what? where? with what crew?) while I know what
I've done. For sure, I can't prove to you that I have spent long time
at sea both with my (now late) wife and singlehanding. I also expect
to be out there again with my new wife.

I can't prove it to you nor can you prove to me that you can tell
which end of an oar goes in the water.

However, the blase claim you make about your daughter's attitude
toward you and even your death is chilling. For you to die and she to
shrug her shoulders and say, "Fair winds" and that's that isn't
natural of humans. Are you autistic? Is your daughter? I"m not teasing
you. Instead I sense in you not only a complete lack of affect, but an
anger to those who show affect.

-paul


I think you're horrified because you think my daughter is young - like
maybe a teenager or younger. It would be weird for a young person like
that to take death so casually. Young people take death of a parent
VERY personally and they do so because they still sorta think they are
the center of the universe. And, that's normal at their age. Nope, I'm
an old fart. My daughter is all grown up and haired over. She's got kids
of her own. She knows people get old and die. She knows I'm doing what I
want to be doing. She knows I have no regrets and she knows she has no
regrets. She lives in the real world and I think that's wonderful.

Any anger you sense on my behalf is a result of the wimpification of men
that's happened in the last sixty or seventy years. I've seen men go
from being men to entire generations of men turning into girly men,
objects of derision, objects of ridicule, the butt of jokes, portraits
of ineptitude, weak, indecisive, telephone to the ear like a security
blanket types. More like women than men. What's next? Hormone injections
to their breasts so they can share nursing the kids? The "men" whose
posts I read here are so far from the men of my youth that's it's
appalling. I'm ashamed of them. Fat, soft, weak, fawning, sensitive,
unassuming, indecisive, ignorant, in need of constant companionship,
dependent, concerned - more female than male.

No, the anger you see me express is anger combined with sorrow and
disgust for the wimpification of men. Not to mention the disgust I feel
for wimpified men who don't seem to realize they shouldn't be living
that way.

Wilbur Hubbard


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wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 12:38:28 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 15:48:32 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Rusty" blank wrote in message
news:zsWdnVzPT_6yTC3bnZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast. com...
I think it's time to get an Iridium satellite phone. We're gong to
have
way
too much time away from cell sites.

Any suggestions as to a cruiser-friendly source of hardware and
airtime?

Thanks,
Rusty


It's my observation that people who have to have a phone so they can
blabbermouth 24/7 while out cruising should just stay home. If you
need
to be plugged in to the communications grid 24/7 you're not cut out
for
cruising - just stay home and leave the waterways open for real
cruisers, please. Today's men are turning into girly men. Bunch of
sissies. Spend the money on a EPIRB instead. Cruise and try
shutting
your mouth for a week or a month. You might learn something for the
first time in your life.

Wilbur Hubbard


Wilbur,

While I realize that weather is of little interest to you on your
trailer-sailer anchored in your snug little Bayou but to people out
there on the water it is one of their primary concerns and there are
three basic ways to get weather reports once you're out of sight of
land (1) H.F. radio, (2) Iridium phone or (3) satellite (immersat,
for
example).

I've done cost comparisons and going from nothing to a complete
installation is cheaper using Iridium so more and more cruisers are
opting for Iridium as weather reports through Iridium can be
received
24 hours a day while H.F. is greatly dependent upon daily
propagation
variations.

As you say, " try shutting your mouth for a week or a month. You
might
learn something for the first time in your life."



Correction, there is a fourth and more reliable way of getting weather
reports. That's knowing how to look at the glass and the sky and being
able to interpret what they tell you for your part of the world. How
do
you think sailors got around before your exclusive reliance on
technology?

Your little do-it-like-a-lubber screed simply reinforces my opinion
that
you're no sailor.
But, then again, anybody who has good opportunity to do coastal
cruising
in your part of the world, (considered premiere cruising grounds) but
instead sits in a marina on the Internet probably won't ever
understand
that.

Wilbur Hubbard


Wilbur, that is one of the stupidest posts I've ever had the
misfortune to read.

You are right, years ago people didn't have any technology and relied
on all kind of signs and portents to determine what to do.

Originally no one could figure out how where they were once they were
out of sight of land. Then came the compass so we could tell what
direction we were going. Then somebody made a clock that would keep
accurate time and people learned how to take sun shots and we got even
better at knowing where we were, now we have GPS and we know down to a
yard, or so exactly where we are.

Sure, there a lot of old sailor's rhymes and jingles -- Red sky at
night, sailor's delight....., most of them wildly inaccurate, but now
we have a little more science in weather forecasting. Satellites,
weather buoys, there is even a US Navy buoy system in most oceans
where you can get real time wave height, and you want to go back to
looking at clouds to predict the weather? Why? Because you think it is
"lubberly" to use technology?

Throughout history those who adopted the latest technology win and
those who stuck with the old traditional ways end up in the garbage
can.

Hubert, do a little reading about the Tea Clippers. They sailed the
way you are recommending -- lousy charts, poor navigation systems, no
communications, no weather information except clouds. Real Sailor! No
Lubbers here!

And the average life of a tea clipper was something like two years.
Their records read "lost on Scudder's Bank", "demasted in Bay of
Bengal", "believed sunk in typhoon in S. China Seas".......

If you want to go back to the days of Salt Junk and Biscuits for
breakfast, pulling ropes by hand and drowning because you ran into a
typhoon that you didn't know was coming then you are welcome to it.

But for me, I'm going to have every technical advantage I can get.


"Stupid is as stupid does." --Forrest Gump.

Let me just say this. My boats have been struck by lightning twice. If
yours hasn't it will be one of these days. When it does get struck, say
goodbye to ALL of your electronics. If you don't know how to sail
without electronics you shouldn't be voyaging or cruising. To lightly
toss aside traditional weather forecasting skills that rely on a
barometer and human eye and other senses is to do a stupid thing.

Wilbur Hubbard



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"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:09:10 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
How about a Master Mariner license instead?

http://captneal.homestead.com/files/mastermariner.jpg

I'd say that says it all . . . My mentor, the World Famous Captain
Neal.

Wilbur Hubbard


If you had taken the photo from a little further away it might work,
but it can be read -- it is a 25 tonner for domestic inshore waters.

I believe that the OP was talking about a real ship officers license
with indorsement probable foreign going all tonnage.





Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)


Hey Willy -- you should tell yourse....er, "Capt Neal," that the
license has expired. No matter, we all have to start somewhere.
Self-documenting sea time for the 25 ton MM and OUPV license is as
good a start as any.



He probably used an old license to post. He probably doesn't want his
current one with the number and all out there on the Internet for people
to try to counterfeit and use as their own.

Wilbur Hubbard

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"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
.. .
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


wrote in message
oups.com...
... So you can cruise and you can
telephone. But it's not the same as doing one or the other and
doing
it
well. ...

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that I'm cruising less well
when, lets say, just for the sake of historical accuracy, I'm
anchor down in Kanton Atoll on a day when it's so calm I can't tell
where the air ends and the water starts and so hot that even the
flies have
taken cover in the shade I call my father on my Iridium phone? Are
you telling me that this offends you in some way? Do we need to be
reduced to sail cloth pants and latitude sailing to be cruising
"well"?

-- Tom.


And sooner or later your phone will make you lazy and inept just
like the poor fella further up this thread who couldn't even figure
out how
to get up the mast without making telephone calls and asking people
how to do it safely. That's pretty disgusting in my humble opinion.
People like him, when they get their friends advice about going up
the
mast, and then they manage to fall off will likely crawl to their
cell
phone, dial up their lawyer and enquire as to how to sue their
friends
for giving bad advice.



Ocne again you're making assumptions about things that you know
nothing
about. In this case I was calling someone who used to work for
Freedom
to ask what the load rating was for the flag halyard rollers. As it
turns out, the rollers designed to support a person. I wasn't about
to
go up the mast while underway without checking. It sounds like you
would have goen up as you wouldn't have had any other option. I did
and
I took it.


I have learned that making assumptions about things I know little or
nothing about is always a good way to get the straight skinny because
it motivates people to want to straighten me out. Flag halyard
rollers(?) do you mean sheeves? It seems to me pretty dumb to over
engineer flag halyard sheeves to carry the weight of a man. Going up a
mast using the old fashioned methods is totally unnecessary these days
when mast steps are easily installed. Again, you're sailing by
committee. You have somebody winch you up the mast, relying on flag
halyard sheeves and winches and their steady hand and shouting back
and forth when you should be going up the mast under your own power on
steps. Doh! Such a radical concept that.


You act like I know nothing about sailing. I typically spend 6-7
months
a year sailing and I've logged over 30,000 miles. I believe that
know a
lot about my boat and sailing. Check my web site if you have any
doubt.


I sort of can't seem to have much respect for people who go to sea
with an unstayed rig. It's an invitation to disaster or should I say,
dismasting?



I love people who continue to dig holes for themselves and show their
ignorance. Unstayed carbon fiber masts don't like holes in them.
Placing mast steps is one of the last things that you'd ever do.

Virtually every sailmaker that I've spoken with will tell you to not use
mast steps due to what it does to the air flow past the mast. If you
don't care about performance, go ahead and put them on your mast.

Carbon fiber masts have an extremely good track record as far as
breaking is concerned. The only failures that Freedom has had is when
someone hit a bridge and from people using a spinnaker going to the top
of the mast instead of 7/8 as recommended. Conventional boat rigging
has a much better chance of failing than a carbon fiber unstayed mast.

As far as Freedom's decision to over-engineer the flag halyard system to
allow it to haul someone to the top: I applaud it. Clearly the
engineers saw that the potential of needing such as system as made sure
that the components used at the mast head could support a person. I've
been up the mast many times and it didn't take a lot of additional
material/weight to do it.

Wilbur, I'm sick and tired of listening to someone who thinks that they
know how to do everything and their way is the only way. So crawl back
into the hole that you came from and if you ever learn civility, come
back. Until then, shut up.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org
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On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 14:03:24 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 12:38:28 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 15:48:32 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Rusty" blank wrote in message
news:zsWdnVzPT_6yTC3bnZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast .com...
I think it's time to get an Iridium satellite phone. We're gong to
have
way
too much time away from cell sites.

Any suggestions as to a cruiser-friendly source of hardware and
airtime?

Thanks,
Rusty


It's my observation that people who have to have a phone so they can
blabbermouth 24/7 while out cruising should just stay home. If you
need
to be plugged in to the communications grid 24/7 you're not cut out
for
cruising - just stay home and leave the waterways open for real
cruisers, please. Today's men are turning into girly men. Bunch of
sissies. Spend the money on a EPIRB instead. Cruise and try
shutting
your mouth for a week or a month. You might learn something for the
first time in your life.

Wilbur Hubbard


Wilbur,

While I realize that weather is of little interest to you on your
trailer-sailer anchored in your snug little Bayou but to people out
there on the water it is one of their primary concerns and there are
three basic ways to get weather reports once you're out of sight of
land (1) H.F. radio, (2) Iridium phone or (3) satellite (immersat,
for
example).

I've done cost comparisons and going from nothing to a complete
installation is cheaper using Iridium so more and more cruisers are
opting for Iridium as weather reports through Iridium can be
received
24 hours a day while H.F. is greatly dependent upon daily
propagation
variations.

As you say, " try shutting your mouth for a week or a month. You
might
learn something for the first time in your life."


Correction, there is a fourth and more reliable way of getting weather
reports. That's knowing how to look at the glass and the sky and being
able to interpret what they tell you for your part of the world. How
do
you think sailors got around before your exclusive reliance on
technology?

Your little do-it-like-a-lubber screed simply reinforces my opinion
that
you're no sailor.
But, then again, anybody who has good opportunity to do coastal
cruising
in your part of the world, (considered premiere cruising grounds) but
instead sits in a marina on the Internet probably won't ever
understand
that.

Wilbur Hubbard


Wilbur, that is one of the stupidest posts I've ever had the
misfortune to read.

You are right, years ago people didn't have any technology and relied
on all kind of signs and portents to determine what to do.

Originally no one could figure out how where they were once they were
out of sight of land. Then came the compass so we could tell what
direction we were going. Then somebody made a clock that would keep
accurate time and people learned how to take sun shots and we got even
better at knowing where we were, now we have GPS and we know down to a
yard, or so exactly where we are.

Sure, there a lot of old sailor's rhymes and jingles -- Red sky at
night, sailor's delight....., most of them wildly inaccurate, but now
we have a little more science in weather forecasting. Satellites,
weather buoys, there is even a US Navy buoy system in most oceans
where you can get real time wave height, and you want to go back to
looking at clouds to predict the weather? Why? Because you think it is
"lubberly" to use technology?

Throughout history those who adopted the latest technology win and
those who stuck with the old traditional ways end up in the garbage
can.

Hubert, do a little reading about the Tea Clippers. They sailed the
way you are recommending -- lousy charts, poor navigation systems, no
communications, no weather information except clouds. Real Sailor! No
Lubbers here!

And the average life of a tea clipper was something like two years.
Their records read "lost on Scudder's Bank", "demasted in Bay of
Bengal", "believed sunk in typhoon in S. China Seas".......

If you want to go back to the days of Salt Junk and Biscuits for
breakfast, pulling ropes by hand and drowning because you ran into a
typhoon that you didn't know was coming then you are welcome to it.

But for me, I'm going to have every technical advantage I can get.


"Stupid is as stupid does." --Forrest Gump.


Good God! Forrest Gump is a movie character. Have you lost so much
touch with reality that you confuse the figures on the "silver screen"
with real people? Hummmm perhaps you have.

Let me just say this. My boats have been struck by lightning twice. If
yours hasn't it will be one of these days. When it does get struck, say
goodbye to ALL of your electronics. If you don't know how to sail
without electronics you shouldn't be voyaging or cruising. To lightly
toss aside traditional weather forecasting skills that rely on a
barometer and human eye and other senses is to do a stupid thing.

Wilbur Hubbard


Will Boy, you got me beat - I've only been "hit" by lightning once.
And yes I can rely on a barometer and looking at the clouds. It's not
accurate but better then scrambling around in the guts of a
slaughtered goat, or some other sooth-saying mumbo-jumbo, I suppose.
And, by the way, you don't have to say goodby to all your electronic
instruments. My hand held GPS in a tin box survived.

But, that is once in all the years I've been sailing. To ignore modern
technology because something that happened once in 20 - 30 - 40 years
is, quite simply, ridicules.

By the way, during the N.E. Monsoons the barometer normally moves down
about 5 millibar from daylight to evening - does that mean a storm is
coming this evening?


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)
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Wilbur Hubbard wrote:


I think you're horrified because you think my daughter is young - like
maybe a teenager or younger. It would be weird for a young person like
that to take death so casually. Young people take death of a parent
VERY personally and they do so because they still sorta think they are
the center of the universe. And, that's normal at their age. Nope, I'm
an old fart. My daughter is all grown up and haired over. She's got kids
of her own. She knows people get old and die. She knows I'm doing what I
want to be doing. She knows I have no regrets and she knows she has no
regrets. She lives in the real world and I think that's wonderful.


My daughter is young. She was 11 when I set out to sea alone single
handing. I think her anxiety was reasonable then as it is now although
she's a bit older. While I didn't have a sat phone then and I may or may
not have one if I go again, I don't think having one to call her from
time to time to reassure her that all's ok is unreasonable or a signal
that I'm a girlie man.

If your daughter is older and all right with her / your / all death,
fine. That's her. I don't know what it means for a daughter to be
'haired over'.

Any anger you sense on my behalf is a result of the wimpification of men
that's happened in the last sixty or seventy years. I've seen men go
from being men to entire generations of men turning into girly men,
objects of derision, objects of ridicule, the butt of jokes, portraits
of ineptitude, weak, indecisive, telephone to the ear like a security
blanket types. More like women than men. What's next? Hormone injections
to their breasts so they can share nursing the kids? The "men" whose
posts I read here are so far from the men of my youth that's it's
appalling. I'm ashamed of them. Fat, soft, weak, fawning, sensitive,
unassuming, indecisive, ignorant, in need of constant companionship,
dependent, concerned - more female than male.

No, the anger you see me express is anger combined with sorrow and
disgust for the wimpification of men. Not to mention the disgust I feel
for wimpified men who don't seem to realize they shouldn't be living
that way.

So we think and I've thought the same myself. The question is if we're
really softer or if we aren't called to be harder. When I and my late
wife lived in WY, we wondered at the Original Settlers who lived in
soddies and were wintered in for months. These families were self
sufficient or dead.

I lived for months in the NWT of Canada in a tent - again pretty much
sufficient but with my camp mates - about 5 of us total. We managed to
do our work, cook our food, fish or hunt or whatever it took. When I
returned to Calgary, I returned to my normal life or the soft life perhaps.

Aside from duration, there wasn't much difference between me and Slocum
single handing aside from me having a much larger craft. No, that
doesn't make me the equal of Slocum, only that I too can live w/o
refrigeration and stand long watches in storms too. So are we really the
same as the ancestors or would the ancestors use refrigeration and sat
phones if only they had them? That is, have we changed or, as I think do
we just have more options?

Slocum did spherical trig on paper with a pencil. Would he have been
less admirable had he a 10 key?

-paul
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