On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:56:39 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Bruce" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 18:18:48 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Verizon News" wrote in message
news:%NOni.4475$SM6.2392@trnddc01...
The cost of marine diesel for your boat is outrageous these days. I
am
all for businesses making an honest buck and I am all for

http://www.billharder.com/boating/39...are-outrageous


Anybody who buys a trawler deserves to pay out the ass for his fuel.
Those trawlers are ugly, smelly, noisy and make about as much sense on
the water as driving a semi tractor on the road for your road trip
vacations.

I have no sympathy for anybody who runs a diesel engine for
recreational
purposes. Don't you realize how much pollution a marine diesel engine
produces? It's totally selfish and irresponsible. Anybody running a
marine diesel for recreational purposes is sick in my opinion. No
regard
whatsoever for clean air and a clean marine environment. When
somebody's
'fun' takes precedence over my rights (to a clean environment) then I
cannot excuse such hedonism.

I wish they'd jack the price of recreational marine diesel up to about
fifty bucks a gallon. Maybe people would be forced to buy
environmentally friendly sailboats that use small, clean-air,
4-stroke,
gasoline outboards when needed but use sails most of the time. When
your 'cruising' is a blatant act of pollution and you don't even
realize
it then you're just clueless and nobody I want to associate with....

Wilbur Hubbard



Wilber old buddy, your ideas have some validity when applied to a
skiff but don't work so well when you are talking about a 40 ft. 7 ton
sailboat. In addition, if you ever start really cruising you will
discover that sometimes the wind just doesn't blow and after you have
been becalmed for a few days in the S. China Sea, as a buddy of mine
just did, you'll probably want to start motoring toward somewhere you
think you might be able to buy some grub and your little outboard just
isn't going to cut it.

By the way, if your theory about motor boats was really correct the
world's ocean freight would still be carried on sailing ships.....

I made the distinction quite clear with regards to 'recreational' use of
marine diesel engines. Just like truck freight over the road depends of
big diesel rigs so does freight over the oceans. In my opinion, it is an
acceptable compromise to use diesel engines for commerce although I
would like to see emission standards tightened up.

But, when it comes to recreational use of diesel engines in boats I find
this to be totally unacceptable. The typical marine recreational diesel
meets NO emission standards that I know of. They are often old,
decrepit, in ill-repair and in need of an overhaul. Visible smoke is
more the rule than the exception. The stench of them is enough to sicken
even the crew. And people continue to use them for recreational
purposes. In other words, strictly for selfish reasons - their 'fun.'

I find this appalling. That people would knowingly pollute the air and
water during any 'optional' activity tells me these people have no
regard for anybody but their own selfish selves. If they were
responsible human beings they would use an engine that meets or exceeds
current emission standards. That means a late-model gasoline engine. And
don't tell me no such engines exist for marine use. The choice of a
diesel engine is the wrong choice when looked at from the environmental
standpoint.

One other thing, if one can't abide being becalmed from time to time
then don't take up sailing.

Wilbur Hubbard

First of all you do not compare apples to apples. Your rant appears to
concern a new, computer controlled gasoline engine as compared to an
older model direct injection diesel engine. And, yes, you are probably
right that the modern engine produces less pollutants then the old
style diesel.

Of course this is a ridicules comparison -- as ridicules as condemning
the amount of horse manure my grandfather's horse and buggy produced
by comparing it to my father's Model 'A' Ford.

I suggest that if you compare the pollutants produced by a modern
computer controlled diesel engine to that produced by a modern
gasoline engine you might find a different picture.

As for the odors produced by engines I am assuming you are referring
to the exhaust. A properly designed diesel system produces little, if
any odor.

As far as your statement that "I find this appalling. That people
would knowingly pollute the air and water during any 'optional'
activity tells me these people have no regard for anybody but their
own selfish selves." is quite simply self serving bull****.

If you really find the use of polluting devices appalling then you
would be rowing your dinghy out to the mooring and sailing away -- no
engine at all.

But that isn't what you are doing. You have a gasoline engine that you
use and then you try to justify your actions by saying, in effect,
that your engine produces less pollutants than mine -- My daddy can
lick your daddy, in other words. Very reminiscent of the 4th grade.

Your final comment that "One other thing, if one can't abide being
becalmed from time to time then don't take up sailing" simply
indicates that you have never actually "cruised". Oh, maybe a little
day sailing but how many trips have you made where you didn't expect
to see land for three weeks to a month?

When you are sitting 250 miles off shore and the wind hasn't made a
ripple on the water for three days, as happened to a friend of mine,
you too might find the thought of trying to motor that 250 miles to
get to a place you can buy some food and water as somewhat appealing.

I had another friend that was depending on one of your recommended
outboards, because his sail drive ate it's gears, and the wind
stopped. It took him 10 days to make just a bit over 100 miles to
shore, drifting most of the way. Those little outboard tanks sure
don't carry much fuel.

No Wildur, you go out and make a couple of real voyages and then come
back and talk to me. You might even find that we'd agree on a lot more
things that you think we would.










Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

This whole thread is pretty goofy considering all the two stroke
British Seagulls out there using 10:1 oil mix. Course the newer ones use
25:1 !

Gordon wrote in
:

This whole thread is pretty goofy considering all the two stroke
British Seagulls out there using 10:1 oil mix. Course the newer ones
use
25:1 !


This is also an interesting point......

According to the greenies, because we were ALL burning gas mixed 10:1 or
15:1 with Quaker State SAE 30 motor oil from the Flying A for the first
100 years or so of outboard motor technology, by the millions......All
the lakes in the USA should be between 6 inches and 3 feet deep in greasy
motor oil the old motors used to be covered with, preventing them from
ever corroding, by the way.

The lakes, as you may have noticed, where greasy outboard motors leave a
trail of pollution on their surfaces...but who are not being used as a
sewer by cities and industries...are just fine and full of fish. Why is
that? Could 2-stroke Quaker State EVAPORATE...like it does in the
crankcase?? What a silly idea! That's not going to create panic and a
government grant that goes on forever!

Case in point is the lake I grew up on, Owasco Lake in the Finger Lakes
of upstate NY. Everyone had septic tanks or cesspools, even in Moravia,
my hometown. There was no "sewer system" until the Feds moved in and
forced everyone to feed a new system that dumped its **** into the
"Inlet", the inlet to Owasco Lake. We all drank the lake water while
fishing for the first 18 years of my life. The lake was overrun on any
Saturday with nasty old Evinrudes, Kieffauver Mercurys, Johnsons, Scott
A****ers (Grandpa had a Scott 40 on the big boat), etc. We ran 10:1
tractor gas with Quaker State SAE 30 in it. When I was little, I used to
get to pour the oil into the gas can....by the quart! I still love that
smell...(c; The lake was full of fish, bullheads, pickerel, walleyed
pike, trout, bass, etc. Bullheads used to run towards the Coleman gas
lanterns my grandfather and his friends would line the shore with after
dark and we would snatchhook them as fast as you could cast. Everyone
had 3 or 4 freezers to stuff them all in.

Then the greenies showed up. We had to stop polluting the valley with
our septic tanks, cesspools, ****ing in the lawns, and all the old 1800's
"camps", little houses along the lake used by the city folks only in
summer, had to tear down their outhouses behind the garages across the
dirt road from their camps. (If you were out fishing and "had to go",
you simply stopped at any lakeside camp, knocked on a door, and asked to
use their outhouse. It was fine. The BEST nightcrawlers for more
fishing were in the leaves right behind the outhouses, too...real
MONSTERS!) Towns were all forced into the sewage business. It dumped
into the inlet, polluting the lake.

Google "Owasco Lake", with the quote marks for better sorting. Read the
terrible reports of algae blooms, dead fish, etc., that is Owasco Lake,
Sewer, in 2007. They should have left my lake and its people alone.
They were fine.....

Larry
--
So was their old, blue Evinrude Sportwins going fishing at 5AM.....

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:15:51 +0000, Larry wrote:

Gordon wrote in
:

This whole thread is pretty goofy considering all the two stroke
British Seagulls out there using 10:1 oil mix. Course the newer ones
use
25:1 !


This is also an interesting point......

According to the greenies, because we were ALL burning gas mixed 10:1 or
15:1 with Quaker State SAE 30 motor oil from the Flying A for the first
100 years or so of outboard motor technology, by the millions......All
the lakes in the USA should be between 6 inches and 3 feet deep in greasy
motor oil the old motors used to be covered with, preventing them from
ever corroding, by the way.

The lakes, as you may have noticed, where greasy outboard motors leave a
trail of pollution on their surfaces...but who are not being used as a
sewer by cities and industries...are just fine and full of fish. Why is
that? Could 2-stroke Quaker State EVAPORATE...like it does in the
crankcase?? What a silly idea! That's not going to create panic and a
government grant that goes on forever!

Case in point is the lake I grew up on, Owasco Lake in the Finger Lakes
of upstate NY. Everyone had septic tanks or cesspools, even in Moravia,
my hometown. There was no "sewer system" until the Feds moved in and
forced everyone to feed a new system that dumped its **** into the
"Inlet", the inlet to Owasco Lake. We all drank the lake water while
fishing for the first 18 years of my life. The lake was overrun on any
Saturday with nasty old Evinrudes, Kieffauver Mercurys, Johnsons, Scott
A****ers (Grandpa had a Scott 40 on the big boat), etc. We ran 10:1
tractor gas with Quaker State SAE 30 in it. When I was little, I used to
get to pour the oil into the gas can....by the quart! I still love that
smell...(c; The lake was full of fish, bullheads, pickerel, walleyed
pike, trout, bass, etc. Bullheads used to run towards the Coleman gas
lanterns my grandfather and his friends would line the shore with after
dark and we would snatchhook them as fast as you could cast. Everyone
had 3 or 4 freezers to stuff them all in.

Then the greenies showed up. We had to stop polluting the valley with
our septic tanks, cesspools, ****ing in the lawns, and all the old 1800's
"camps", little houses along the lake used by the city folks only in
summer, had to tear down their outhouses behind the garages across the
dirt road from their camps. (If you were out fishing and "had to go",
you simply stopped at any lakeside camp, knocked on a door, and asked to
use their outhouse. It was fine. The BEST nightcrawlers for more
fishing were in the leaves right behind the outhouses, too...real
MONSTERS!) Towns were all forced into the sewage business. It dumped
into the inlet, polluting the lake.

Google "Owasco Lake", with the quote marks for better sorting. Read the
terrible reports of algae blooms, dead fish, etc., that is Owasco Lake,
Sewer, in 2007. They should have left my lake and its people alone.
They were fine.....

Larry

The majority of the oil/fuel discharged in 2-stroke exhaust simply
evaporates. It doesn't somehow magically sink to the bottom of the
lake to cause problems for future generations.

Do some research on crude oil spills to see just how much of a crude
oil spill actually evaporates rather then having to be scrapped off
the surface of the water and believe me, crude oil has a far higher
viscosity then outboard oil and gasoline.

Here in Asia there are kerosine fueled outboards. I wonder whether
they are legal in the U.S.







Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Bruce wrote in
:

Here in Asia there are kerosine fueled outboards. I wonder whether
they are legal in the U.S.



Gotta love those diesel surface drives on the riverboats with the 20'
driveshaft out the back....(c;



Larry
--
While in Mexico, I didn't have to press 1 for Spanish.
While in Iran, I didn't have to press 1 for Farsi, either.
While in Florida, I had to press 2 for English.
It just isn't fair.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:26:07 +0000, Larry wrote:

Bruce wrote in
:

Here in Asia there are kerosine fueled outboards. I wonder whether
they are legal in the U.S.



Gotta love those diesel surface drives on the riverboats with the 20'
driveshaft out the back....(c;



Larry
--
While in Mexico, I didn't have to press 1 for Spanish.
While in Iran, I didn't have to press 1 for Farsi, either.
While in Florida, I had to press 2 for English.
It just isn't fair.


They are so common that nearly every hardware store stocks the chain
and sprockets fir the gear reduction system and the range in size from
Brigs& Stratons to big diesels.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:26:07 +0000, Larry wrote:

Bruce wrote in
:

Here in Asia there are kerosine fueled outboards. I wonder whether
they are legal in the U.S.



Gotta love those diesel surface drives on the riverboats with the 20'
driveshaft out the back....(c;



Larry

Local answer to the outboard. I've seen them ranging from
Briggs&Straton to 6 cylinder diesels. the later make a really super
engine -- with a chrome plated wide open megaphone exhaust.



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:49:44 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

Your final comment that "One other thing, if one can't abide being
becalmed from time to time then don't take up sailing" simply
indicates that you have never actually "cruised". Oh, maybe a little
day sailing but how many trips have you made where you didn't expect
to see land for three weeks to a month?

When you are sitting 250 miles off shore and the wind hasn't made a
ripple on the water for three days, as happened to a friend of mine,
you too might find the thought of trying to motor that 250 miles to
get to a place you can buy some food and water as somewhat appealing.

I had another friend that was depending on one of your recommended
outboards, because his sail drive ate it's gears, and the wind
stopped. It took him 10 days to make just a bit over 100 miles to
shore, drifting most of the way. Those little outboard tanks sure
don't carry much fuel.

No Wildur, you go out and make a couple of real voyages and then come
back and talk to me. You might even find that we'd agree on a lot more
things that you think we would.


Very well said Bruce

cheers
Peter

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:58:23 +1000, wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:49:44 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

Your final comment that "One other thing, if one can't abide being
becalmed from time to time then don't take up sailing" simply
indicates that you have never actually "cruised". Oh, maybe a little
day sailing but how many trips have you made where you didn't expect
to see land for three weeks to a month?

When you are sitting 250 miles off shore and the wind hasn't made a
ripple on the water for three days, as happened to a friend of mine,
you too might find the thought of trying to motor that 250 miles to
get to a place you can buy some food and water as somewhat appealing.

I had another friend that was depending on one of your recommended
outboards, because his sail drive ate it's gears, and the wind
stopped. It took him 10 days to make just a bit over 100 miles to
shore, drifting most of the way. Those little outboard tanks sure
don't carry much fuel.

No Wildur, you go out and make a couple of real voyages and then come
back and talk to me. You might even find that we'd agree on a lot more
things that you think we would.


Very well said Bruce

cheers
Peter

Peter!

I thought you were back in the water and far out on the briny by this
time, although you never did mention where you were actually going --
whichever way the wind blows?

Along those lines a mate departed Phuket non-stop for Perth. some time
went by and I didn;t hear from him (O.K., he is offshore sailing).
finally I get an e-mail. From Kuching. I write back, "Frank, I hate to
tell you but Kuching is in the wrong direction..." He comes back,
"Listen, we had winds on the nose from the time we left Phuket. When I
finally got to the Sunda Straits I was so sick of it I turned
downwind... anyway, Kuching is quite a nice place to visit".

Let us know how things are going.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:56:38 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

"Listen, we had winds on the nose from the time we left Phuket. When I
finally got to the Sunda Straits I was so sick of it I turned
downwind... anyway, Kuching is quite a nice place to visit".

And *that* is real cruising... :-)

Isn't it interesting that we never hear anything about Wilbur's boat
or his latest voyage. Saves on maintenance and other operating costs
I guess.